God's purpose

Navigator said:
You might say that this is the same as saying the “purpose” of humans is to be “good” to rid the world of “evil” but the statement of itself can be misconstrued as the understanding of good and evil is still contested by those in roles of opposition.
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So all "genuine" agnostics, that apparently according to you are the only ones that aren't in roles of opposition, would agree with your definition of good and evil?
 
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Navigator said:
Science is one thing. Scientists may well be influenced by their preferred position of atheist or theist but science is science and of itself is not a process which carries any significant weight in relation to the question of god. As a scientist atheist it may have relevance, but a scientist (and his/her particular position on the god question) is not science.
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If "The purpose of humans is to create machines which will allow them better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein," that's generally going to require rocket scientists.

I'm not saying that scientists' theism/atheism is evidence for or against the existence of god.

I'm saying that if the purpose of humans is what you said above, then far more atheists than theists will be working on the project, statistically speaking.

Is that what you pictured? Or did you picture theists would be doing the most to advance mankind's purpose?
 
Navigator said:
Nope, The purpose of humans is to create machines which will allow them better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.
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Wonder why I heard the Star Trek theme when I read that?

McCoy - “It's life Jim, but not as we know it”.

Jim - “Well . . . let's give them some . . . nurturing . . . of . . . consciousness . . . and see how they . . . respond.

Spock - “That is not logical. Beam me out of here Scotty, Jim has gone insane.”
 
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ynot said:
I would most appreciate Navigator's answer but anyone can play.

Theoretical scenario . . .
An atheist has caused the deaths of some people and is about to cause the deaths of more. You have the ability to cause the death of the atheist to prevent her from causing more deaths of these people that include children, women and members of your own family. Would causing the death of the atheist be good or evil?

ETA - There is no other way to prevent the atheist from causing the deaths than causing her death.
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Okay. I will put in my two cents.

Quick answer. I will kill her. I would consider it neither good nor evil. Just something that had to be done.

Afterward I could debate whether it was good or evil, and my view would be my intentions at the time. Her religion or lack of it be not a consideration.

The real life complications.

The first question I would ask is why is this person killing. If she is a doctor doing mercy killings (euthanasia) then I would allow her to kill more. If she is committing murder, then killing her is justifiable homicide (if there is no alternative).

Another complication is how the killing would take place. Personally I would prefer a clean and uncomplicated "push-the-button" method. I have had to put animals out of their suffering, and not many people would be able to steel themselves use the methods left to me. Slice the throat, drown them, bash their head in.

Many people may also hesitate to kill a female. (Nice touch, ynot.)

If on the other hand, the female is a Palestinian with a knife, an Israeli is likely to kill without hesitation because they would reason that Palestinian/Arab lives are worthless, their religion is evil, and there will be no legal consequence. Now the question is: Is that good or evil? And does one have to consider only the immediate circumstances or expand the question to include the history of Israel and Palestinians.

And to make this relevant to the thread - what is God's purpose in Israel or the Arab world?
 
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PartSkeptic said:
Okay. I will put in my two cents.

Quick answer. I will kill her. I would consider it neither good nor evil. Just something that had to be done.

Afterward I could debate whether it was good or evil, and my view would be my intentions at the time. Her religion or lack of it be not a consideration.

The real life complications.

The first question I would ask is why is this person killing. If she is a doctor doing mercy killings (euthanasia) then I would allow her to kill more. If she is committing murder, then killing her is justifiable homicide (if there is no alternative).

Another complication is how the killing would take place. Personally I would prefer a clean and uncomplicated "push-the-button" method. I have had to put animals out of their suffering, and not many people would be able to steel themselves use the methods left to me. Slice the throat, drown them, bash their head in.

Many people may also hesitate to kill a female. (Nice touch, ynot.)

If on the other hand, the female is a Palestinian with a knife, an Israeli is likely to kill without hesitation because they would reason that Palestinian/Arab lives are worthless, their religion is evil, and there will be no legal consequence. Now the question is: Is that good or evil? And does one have to consider only the immediate circumstances or expand the question to include the history of Israel and Palestinians.

And to make this relevant to the thread - what is God's purpose in Israel or the Arab world?
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Kill first then ask questions? You live in the US right? :cool:

But thanks for your answer.
 
Pup said:
Is that what you pictured? Or did you picture theists would be doing the most to advance mankind's purpose?
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As I understand it all theist and atheists will be converted into superior agnostics. Worldwide superior agnostic membership only seems to be one at present so it may take some time. Everyone will agree what good and evil are and there will be no roles of opposition. A bit like the "Lions will lie down with lambs" thing.
 
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Navigator said:
Nope, The purpose of humans is to create machines which will allow them better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.
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Now that I've stopped laughing. How did you find out that this is the purpose of humans? Who or what told you it is? A “message board” or a "GOD" perhaps?
 
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ynot said:
Now that I've stopped laughing. How did you find out that this is the purpose of humans? Who or what told you it is? A “message board” or a "GOD" perhaps?
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When all is said and done, the facts informed me. Laugh all you want ynot. I heard a good belly laugh was great for the health so make sure it hurts and tears run down your cheeks. That's how I would laugh about you... if I even thought for a moment you were actually funny.

You are plain to me. Nothing extra-ordinary for that. Dime a dozen.



:)
 
Pup said:
If "The purpose of humans is to create machines which will allow them better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein," that's generally going to require rocket scientists.

I'm not saying that scientists' theism/atheism is evidence for or against the existence of god.

I'm saying that if the purpose of humans is what you said above, then far more atheists than theists will be working on the project, statistically speaking.

Is that what you pictured? Or did you picture theists would be doing the most to advance mankind's purpose?
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This is where you still don't quite get it pup. It isn't about being atheist or theist.

But needless to say, since a large number of theists are presently fixated upon 'the other universe' then yes, certain type atheists will likely be statistically more involved in the agenda. Christians think that this universe is 'the devils' so any such agenda is the agenda of 'the god of this world/universe' and in terms of working in support of said agenda, atheists are more likely to do the devils work - according to those type theists, anyway...

Of course that is not to say that there aren't certain type theists also involved in supporting said agenda...both atheist and theist Israelis appear to be in congruity in relation to the agenda. For them it appears such positions are not overly important factors.

Israel is Alpha.
 
ynot said:
Now that I've stopped laughing. How did you find out that this is the purpose of humans? Who or what told you it is? A “message board” or a "GOD" perhaps?
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Now then ynot, it's a better answer than we have had from any theists thus far.

On the other hand Navigator why didn't this god give us a hand to achieve this or provide the machines himself?

The best the Abrahamic god could do was give us a value for Pi, that was out by a long way.
 
Navigator said:
When all is said and done, the facts informed me. Laugh all you want ynot. I heard a good belly laugh was great for the health so make sure it hurts and tears run down your cheeks. That's how I would laugh about you... if I even thought for a moment you were actually funny.

You are plain to me. Nothing extra-ordinary for that. Dime a dozen.

:)
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I wasn't complaining. I appreciate and enjoy a good laugh. Shame it's at you and not with you in this case. For what it's worth I don't dislike you. I'm actually special and unique, just like everyone else.

If you have genuine facts then you should be able to share them with others. How come you haven't? Wonder why I'm thinking you might claim something like these ”facts” are some form of enlightenment that only those that are enlightened can see? No different from the “You can only know god if you believe in god” tripe peddled by theists. Prove me wrong, provide the “facts”.
 
A person has caused the deaths of some people and is about to cause the deaths of more. You have the ability to cause the death of the perpetrator to prevent her from causing more deaths of these people that include children, women and members of your own family. Would causing the death of the perpetrator be good or evil?

ETA - There is no other way to prevent the perpetrator from causing the deaths than causing her death.
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Under the given circumstances my actions would not be good or evil but only necessary.
 
Thor 2 said:
Navigator why didn't this god give us a hand to achieve this or provide the machines himself?
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We are the GOD Thor. WE are ornery and want to do this because we think it is possible to achieve. We trust what we are and that is why we did it.

We don't want some sky-daddy doing it for us. We are the sky-daddy doing it for himself.

But whatever! Your question implies you need a mummy so it is hardly likely you could accept such an idea as I present and that in itself doesn't matter anyway.

100 years from now, humans will be doing what they do and you and I won't be discussing it one way or t'other. There will be no 'I told you so's' - unless by some act of science - and then that;ll be me telling you "I told you so." All in good fun mind you. None of that silly 'laughing at you not with you' crap.
 
Navigator said:
We are the GOD Thor. WE are ornery and want to do this because we think it is possible to achieve. We trust what we are and that is why we did it.

We don't want some sky-daddy doing it for us. We are the sky-daddy doing it for himself.

But whatever! Your question implies you need a mummy so it is hardly likely you could accept such an idea as I present and that in itself doesn't matter anyway.

100 years from now, humans will be doing what they do and you and I won't be discussing it one way or t'other. There will be no 'I told you so's' - unless by some act of science - and then that;ll be me telling you "I told you so." All in good fun mind you. None of that silly 'laughing at you not with you' crap.
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We grew up in the era of flight and space exploration. My grandmother remembered the news of the Wright brothers and saw Armstrong land on the moon. We've been deluged with science fiction about exploring space.

So of course someone of our generation would say the purpose of humans is space exploration. It's the cool thing right now.

200-300 years ago it might have been about improving mankind through the ideas of the enlightenment. Before that it might have been bringing all mankind to work for the glory of god and the one true church, whether they're building cathedrals or pyramids. Before that it might have been to explore out of Africa into the unknown lands despite the cold.

Every era would have been just as sure they finally had it right.
 
PartSkeptic said:
The first question I would ask is why is this person killing. If she is a doctor doing mercy killings (euthanasia) then I would allow her to kill more. If she is committing murder, then killing her is justifiable homicide (if there is no alternative).
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I didn't think of that, though of course it would be obvious in real life. I'm still convinced she had a gun. ;)

But yeah, I'm embarrassed I didn't ask if the killings were justified, like euthanasia, or her new medicine saved 500 people but killed 5, and if she kept giving it, 5 more might die for the next 500 saved.

If on the other hand, the female is a Palestinian with a knife, an Israeli is likely to kill without hesitation because they would reason that Palestinian/Arab lives are worthless, their religion is evil, and there will be no legal consequence. Now the question is: Is that good or evil? And does one have to consider only the immediate circumstances or expand the question to include the history of Israel and Palestinians.

And to make this relevant to the thread - what is God's purpose in Israel or the Arab world?
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Those evil Jews! Or let's say she's an American soldier who killed my family and friends before they could detonate their vests. I'd still feel it was good to kill the infidel, just as she felt it was good to kill them. Wartime puts a whole nuther spin on it.
 
Navigator said:
Nope, The purpose of humans is to create machines which will allow them better access to the galaxy in general and promote the nurturing of consciousness therein.
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New religion? If humans have a destined purpose, it was provided by some deity or conceptual equivalent. If the purpose of humans is decided by humans, than there is no permanent purpose, only current goals in times and places. So, which is it, a new religion, or your personal goal preferences?
 
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