Global warming

Going into something that I STILL don't understand that hasn't been explained to me is if CO2 always results in higher temperatures when it increases (as you seem to be saying, yes?) and increasing the overall temperature which releases even more CO2 from the vast oceans, why is it that it doesn't get stuck in a perpetual positive heat->CO2->heat cycle?

As you were told before the major natural forcing of cooling and warming of the planet are it's own regular orbital cycles. this can and does counteract any warming resulting from high CO2 concentrations.

Considering that the Earth has been around for several billion years and hasn't gotten fried yet, it only seems logical that there are some natural processes that allow the Earth to stay cool even if the CO2 is high as it has in some past instances. Which is why I keep saying it's ridiculous to ignore the past 6 billion years.

Yes, there is a natural process, and you should be aware of it by now. It doesn't explain the current warming, and it offers no easy sollution for it.
I would also like to know why you think the past s being ignored.

I would completely agree... my point isn't that we shouldn't trust science but that mistakes have been made in the past and therefore we can't just shout "scientific consensus" and use that as a valid argument.

First of all, a scientific consensus is a valid argument, just not a final one. But I don't remember anyone using it, without further arguments, to stiffle discussion.

And if they did, this being page 11, they blew it...
 
Endorsed by me as modified, which I'm pretty sure reflects the spirit of it. Same old same old with the occasional fleeting new act, such as 1934 which is "big" on the "scene" right now, I gather.

There people who are terrified by new ideas, let alone new realities. I'm not talking alarm here, I'm talking deeply-felt existential threat. There are ideological convictions that cannot accomodate AGW, a relatively new idea. Some people's very identities are rooted in such cults.

We more blessed individuals welcome new ideas; some are stimulating, some we can demolish as an intellectual exercise, it's all good. There just aren't enough new ideas. Old ideas in a new coat don't cut it.

Stop being more eloquent than me :mad:
 
Try it like this:

A comparison between creationists and global warmer deniers

Both their hypothesis goes against scientific consensus
They both deny this scientific consensus
They both have articles in journals
They both lack articles in mainstream, peer-reviewed journals
They both have a persecution complex
They are both funded by specific interest groups
They both cherrypick their data to suit their hypothesis
They both rave like maniacs when confronted with the facts
They both have more influence in the White House than real scientists

BTW, since you didn't bother identifying the flavour of creationist you decided to use (YEC), I also didn't bother identifying the flavour I used (IDots)

Wait a minute...

You will find here an extensive explanation of the "tight relationship" between arthors in climatology that has been alleged to cause the failure of the peer review process. This includes extensive analysis of social networking. These were US Senate hearings, by the way. So if we seem to have been having Senate hearings in the antics of "climatologists", well, we might have a little problem.

They resulted in the Wegman report . Wegman, a board member of the American Statistical Association, assembled a committee of statisticians to review the Mann et. al. "hockey stick" work... "Mann et. al. misused certain statistical methods in their work which inappropriately produced hockey sticks"

"although the researchers use statistical methods, they do not seem to be interacting with the statistical community"

You are on the side of some people who have had and continue to have documented problems.

Why not admit those problems exist and let's move forward?

groupthink Wikipedia Article





Causes of groupthink

Highly cohesive groups are much more likely to engage in groupthink. The closer they are, the less likely they are to raise questions to break the cohesion. Although Janis sees group cohesion as the most important antecedent to groupthink, he states that it will not invariably lead to groupthink: 'It is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition' (Janis, Victims of Groupthink, 1972). According to Janis, (a) group cohesion will only lead to groupthink if one of the following two antecedent conditions is present: (b) Structural faults in the organisation: insulation of the group, lack of tradition of impartial leadership, lack of norms requiring methodological procedures, homogeneity of members' social backround and ideology. (c) Provocative situational context: high stress from external threats, recent failures, excessive difficulties on the decision-making task, moral dilemmas.
Social psychologist Clark McCauley's three conditions under which groupthink occurs:
  • Directive leadership.
  • Homogeneity of members' social background and ideology.
  • Isolation of the group from outside sources of information and analysis.
Symptoms of groupthink

In order to make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms that are indicative of groupthink (1977).
  1. A feeling of invulnerability creates excessive optimism and encourages risk taking.
  2. Discounting warnings that might challenge assumptions.
  3. An unquestioned belief in the group’s morality, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
  4. Stereotyped views of enemy leaders.
  5. Pressure to conform against members of the group who disagree.
  6. Shutting down of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
  7. An illusion of unanimity with regards to going along with the group.
  8. Mindguards — self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting opinions.
 
You do get carried away, don't you?

Answer me these simple questions, please:

Do you think GW is happening?

Do you think CO2 is the main driver of this warming event?

Do you think that climatologists from all over the world work together to stiffle dissenting voices?

Do you think that scientists are trying to run the world economy through alarmism?


Now, I think I know what your answers are, based on your posts. But I really would appreciate if you would reply, in yes or no terms at first, but with further qualification if you feel necessary.

Thanks
 
You do get carried away, don't you?

Answer me these simple questions, please:
Do you think GW is happening?
Do you think CO2 is the main driver of this warming event?
Do you think that climatologists from all over the world work together to stiffle dissenting voices?
Do you think that scientists are trying to run the world economy through alarmism?

Now, I think I know what your answers are, based on your posts. But I really would appreciate if you would reply, in yes or no terms at first, but with further qualification if you feel necessary.

Thanks

ynnn
By definition, though, politicians try to run economies.
To various degrees they may believe that is is their job;)
 
You do get carried away, don't you?

Answer me these simple questions, please:

Thanks

It's always a good idea lo be seen one is not wasting his ti me dealing with an absolute nutcase.

Again.
You are on the side of some people who have had and continue to have documented problems. Why not admit those problems exist and let's move forward?
 
You do get carried away, don't you?

Answer me these simple questions, please:

Thanks

It's always a good idea to be sure one is not wasting his time dealing with an absolute nutcase.:)

Again.
You are on the side of some people who have had and continue to have documented problems. Why not admit those problems exist and let's move forward?

I'm not meaning to be confrontational in asking this.
 
Oops!
Seems they left something out of the climate models. Like an entire supergyre in the ocean.
CSIRO
Australian scientists have identified the missing deep ocean pathway – or ‘supergyre’ – linking the three Southern Hemisphere ocean basins in research that will help them explain more accurately how the ocean governs global climate.

snip...
“Recognising the scales and patterns of these subsurface water masses means they can be incorporated into the powerful models used by scientists to project how climate may change,” he says.

Hmmm. Not incorporated yet, huh.
 
But isn't it correct that the very scientists who agree it is warming are not competent to discuss whether "something needs to be done to prevent massive change to the climate"? We've noted the cautions of Armstrong in this respect - that the IPCC doesn't do good forecasting.


Armstrong’s background is in *economic* forecasting, a field which has a very poor track record as far as forecasting goes. Economic forecasters stack equations at historical data until they get a match and hope it continues to hold. Naturally this fails as often as is succeeds. Comparing that to someone working with a physical model is ridiculous. Armstrong may be one of the best in his particular specialty of forecasting but his specialty is miles behind almost every other type of forecasting in its effectiveness.
 
Armstrong’s background is in *economic* forecasting, a field which has a very poor track record as far as forecasting goes. Economic forecasters stack equations at historical data until they get a match and hope it continues to hold. Naturally this fails as often as is succeeds. Comparing that to someone working with a physical model is ridiculous.

May I suggest you read IPCC chapter 8, and Armstrong's critique? Your response seems to indicate a lack of understanding as to the content and intent of that section. I will discuss the subject based on its actuality.
 
Going into something that I STILL don't understand that hasn't been explained to me is if CO2 always results in higher temperatures when it increases (as you seem to be saying, yes?) and increasing the overall temperature which releases even more CO2 from the vast oceans, why is it that it doesn't get stuck in a perpetual positive heat->CO2->heat cycle? Also, if the chart referenced later on in this topic is correct that the CO2 has been an order of magnitude higher in the past with similar temperatures, that still doesn't make sense.

Further, with the 800 year lag if CO2 always acted the way you describe in the environment it doesn't make sense that we'd see periods of high CO2 with low temperatures.

Considering that the Earth has been around for several billion years and hasn't gotten fried yet, it only seems logical that there are some natural processes that allow the Earth to stay cool even if the CO2 is high as it has in some past instances. Which is why I keep saying it's ridiculous to ignore the past 6 billion years.

Positive feedback doesn’t always result in a runaway condition, it can also result in converging on a value muck like an infinite series that converges on a finite value. We also have an example of runaway greenhouse effect right next door to us on the Planet Venus.

Those points aside there really are strong negative feedback elements in the Earth’s climate. Doubling of CO2 leads to somewhere between 1.5 – 4.5 deg C warming, so lets say ~3 deg C. To get 6 deg warming you need to have an 4X increase in CO2, and to get 9 deg you need an 8X increase. This diminishing return on increasing CO2 levels gives those negative feedback elements plenty of time to overtake CO2 in importance, just not until significant warming has already occurred.

While these negative feedback elements prevent runaway greenhouse effects they can’t reduce the warming from CO2 to zero as some people claim. Look at it this way, if temperature warms due to CO2, and this warming cases more clouds which reflect sunlight thus cooling the atmosphere what happens if you cool back to the original temperature? The cloud formation stops, the cooling effect disappears but the warming effect from CO2 is still present.

Clearly this doesn’t work. What really happens is that the climate finds a new equilibrium temperature where greater cloud formation balances the new warming effect from CO2. This temperature must be greater then the original temperature, but won’t be as great as if there was no negative feedback.

The way climate sensitivity is calculated actually includes negative feedback effects at their current values because the calculation is based on observed (closed loop) changes, rather then calculating a theoretical value for warming and feedback and merging them. Since climate isn’t linear this only works well for conditions near those you did the calculation for but it’s generally an acceptable approximation.


In that case, you should fully understand that some slight errors in code can create massive issues with output if you aren't careful enough. There are entire volumes of publications dedicated to training programmers how to keep bugs out of code and yet buggy code is still written all the time. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for code.

I also learned that if my results agreed with the independent results from rest of the people in the class there was little chance of a significant coding error. If is simply showed them my code, however the chances that the same coding error would be present in multiple projects was greatly increased. Showing my code also resulted in having to field many questions about why I did something a certain way, questions that were a moot point when independently written code produced identical results.

A logic error was certainly still possible if multiple people misunderstood the same point. The methodology needed to find such a logic error is already publicly available.

The fundamental problem I have with McIntyre’s approach is that it’s only capable of providing a negative answer. I.E. it can be used to say “this isn’t the case” but it can never say “this is”. It can never provide positive evidence. Furthermore, if pushed hard enough it can be used to claim anything is false. It’s a good tool for “falsifying” real science and a poor tool for drawing any real conclusions. Being able to provide strong positive evidence of something as good or better at explaining the phenomenon is question is a key part of any scientific debate.
 
May I suggest you read IPCC chapter 8, and Armstrong's critique? Your response seems to indicate a lack of understanding as to the content and intent of that section. I will discuss the subject based on its actuality.

If you have something to say please way it rather then dropping vague references meant to imply something significant and sending people on wild goose chases to try and figure out what you may be thinking.
 
If you have something to say please way it rather then dropping vague references meant to imply something significant and sending people on wild goose chases to try and figure out what you may be thinking.

Fine. You agree with Ch.8 contents, methods and conclusions as written?
 
That is the admission that you knew full well that your first sentence was asinine. You already clearly knew that the authors did infact do an "about face" as you like to call it, and that the abstract cited was infact accurate.
Wrong yet again. I wasn't sure, and in fact I'm still not sure.

But even if your statement is correct, this means you are admitting that my "or else" was correct and yet you called it a lie. Go figure. (an accusation that you constantly bandy about -- a practice I have no respect for whatsoever)

This is what I saw...
Though I don't expect you to believe me, I'll just say in all sincerity that you saw dead wrong.

Currently I am contributing to the knowledge in this thread by policing a dishonest jerk. Thats you, buddy.
I'll conclude our little chat with an offering, now that I get that you're not really as you seem, but are simply engaging in self-effacing parody. ;) Here's a new avatar for you:
 
From my perspective, you've had your ass handed to you in this thread.
Vague input like this is no help whatsoever in helping me to see any mistakes I may have made. :confused: I welcome you to point out specifically what I'm not seeing. In summary:

(1) BeAChooser claimed that on Antarctica "the main accumulation of ice growing thicker, not melting", true or false?

(2) I cited a study from NASA indicating otherwise, true or false?

(3) BeAChooser cited a study (via CO2 Science) supporting his original claim, true or false?

(4) I cited a 2007 study from the same scientists that BeAChooser cited claiming that overall, Antarctic ice is in retreat, true or false?
 

Back
Top Bottom