Global warming

No, Gore has been LYING when he's told people that there are "zero percent" of scientists who disagree with his version of global warming.

If you round it off, it's damn close. He was talking about the published science as being representative of the scientific view, which is a reasonable position to take. You wouldn't trust an open heart operation to an gynacologist.

But he and the other liberals pushing his agenda are not irrelevant to our response to science. Doing what folks like Gore and Dingel are pushing would be highly irresponsible and would seriously damage this country.


I can think of some excellent reasons why reducing US dependence on carbon based fuels would be of a great benefit to the country.
 
Looks like you forgot to mention Exxon's 2002 $100M grant to fund in Stanford's Global Science and Energy Project.

And that would be relevant exactly how?

Suit yourself, but you are welcome to show that I am wrong; for example show me where children in schools are taught that sea level rise is 2-3 mm per year, after they see Gore's movie. Curriculums are published, that should not be a problem right? So can you show where the actual science is taught and not the Alarmism?

Well, as I said before, I don't care about your swelling for the former VP. I don't care about the movie, and I'm not really that interested in US high-school curricula either. Since I've explicitly said that I haven't seen the movie, and would not comment on it, your question is pointless.

Now, about the rest

1. What, exactly, do you tell people to change their behavior on? (determined by science, not alarmism)

You transmit them the science. How you do it is anyone's guess, and several attempts have and will be made.

Paying for people to lie is not the way though... although exxon really got the value of their money.

2. What, exactly, do you spend public money and do reasearch on?
A multitude of subjects. You seem not to be familiar with the strategy of research funding. Nobody threw file cabinets out the window while proclaiming "that's it, from now on, only global warming projects".

And no, there isn't a bias towards the AGW related projects. Most projects I've seen actually tend to omit the anthropogenic, since is irrelevant if you're merely looking at the effects of warming, and might lead to problems on the political side.

But it's not such a big sample, I admit.

3. What changes, exactly, do cities make to have less adverse environmental impacts?

What cities? New York or Ayamonte? Moskow or Oldenburg?

You do realize your question is silly, mainly the "exactly" in it...

4. What is the focus of policy toward the third world?

Whose policy? See what I mean? You're all over the place... Take a deep breath and start over, with smaller bites this time.

5. Are carbon credits and carbon offsets good? Should they be implemented? How about straightout emissions taxes? (Based on science right?)

Since carbon credits and offsets are a market reply to the problem, I thought you would like it :).

The short reply is yes and yes. And hefty fines for the ones who fail to curb their emissions, and a generalized movement towards other energy sources, namely alternatives (for a small percentage of usage), fission (temporary, and under extremely strict security and environmental rules) and fusion (closer than most think, if we can get the physicists to stop jerking around with the fundamental science and getting to the point).

Here is your chance to show you have more of a brain than Joe the construction worker working out there on that rig for Exxon.

OMG! My intelectual prowess has been challenged by an anonymous poster in the internet! Who actually thinks that Exxon are the "good guys" regarding the GW debate... See me shiver...
 
Since carbon credits and offsets are a market reply to the problem, I thought you would like it :).

The short reply is yes and yes. And hefty fines for the ones who fail to curb their emissions, and a generalized movement towards other energy sources, namely alternatives (for a small percentage of usage), fission (temporary, and under extremely strict security and environmental rules) and fusion (closer than most think, if we can get the physicists to stop jerking around with the fundamental science and getting to the point).

OMG! My intelectual prowess has been challenged by an anonymous poster in the internet! Who actually thinks that Exxon are the "good guys" regarding the GW debate... See me shiver...

If your intellectual prowness has been questioned, did not you bring it on yourself by your behavior? Want examples?
 
My opinion of you sinks every single time I read one of your posts. For someone who is supposedly well read on the subject of climate science, you are wrong so often it is unbelievable. You are a liar for suggesting that the paper in question suggests anything but what the co2science abstract states. I cannot link to the actual paper (its on IEEE) but I can link to a harvard abstract of the paper:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2006RSPTA.364.1627W

...
I don't like liars and I don't like people who refuse to do the simplest bit of checking before they spout off about what they claim to "know" - you apparently don't know much about climate science because I've caught you time and again armed with lies and ignorance. Your claim to fame is collecting a bunch of links on global warming, and I suggest that your next step should be to actualy read them.

Perhaps an apology is in order.

The abstract you link to states explicity that the article is published by the Royal Society, and you can click on the DOI link (http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rsta.2006.1792) to directly access the abstract at http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/content/38315t2244r5w3m4/ , and follow that to the full text at http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/content/38315t2244r5w3m4/fulltext.html

Then you can contrast the CO2Science summary
Contrary to all the horror stories one hears about global warming-induced mass wastage of the Antarctic ice sheet leading to rising sea levels that gobble up coastal lowlands worldwide, the most recent decade of pertinent real-world data suggest that forces leading to just the opposite effect are apparently prevailing, even in the face of what climate alarmists typically describe as the greatest warming of the world in the past two millennia or more.

with the final statements of the authors

What is clear, from the data, is that fluctuations in some coastal regions reflect long-term losses of ice mass, whereas fluctuations elsewhere appear to be short-term changes in snowfall. While the latter are bound to fluctuate about the long-term MAR, the former are not, and so the contribution of retreating glaciers will govern the twenty-first century mass balance of the Antarctic ice sheet.


Really, this thread has turned into something of a train wreck, hasn't it?

FWIW, I tracked the citation through PubMed, and the related links there suggest to me that BeAChooser is cherry-picking. Which was varwoche was pointing out - a more recent reference by Wingham & Shepherd contradicts the citation above.
 
Perhaps an apology is in order.

The abstract you link to states explicity that the article is published by the Royal Society, and you can click on the DOI link (http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rsta.2006.1792) to directly access the abstract at http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/content/38315t2244r5w3m4/ , and follow that to the full text at http://www.journals.royalsoc.ac.uk/content/38315t2244r5w3m4/fulltext.html

Then you can contrast the CO2Science summary


with the final statements of the authors




Really, this thread has turned into something of a train wreck, hasn't it?

FWIW, I tracked the citation through PubMed, and the related links there suggest to me that BeAChooser is cherry-picking. Which was varwoche was pointing out - a more recent reference by Wingham & Shepherd contradicts the citation above.

Good find. I was earlier noting that actual source articles were required, not abstracts (no matter what side of the train one is jumping off of):)
 
My opinion of you sinks every single time I read one of your posts. For someone who is supposedly well read on the subject of climate science, you are wrong so often it is unbelievable. You are a liar for suggesting that the paper in question suggests anything but what the co2science abstract states.
Odin help me. It's a good idea to actually read what's been posted before launching into yet another fact-challenged tirade. Here again, formatting added:
me said:
Either CO2 Science (agenda-driven propagandists/doofuses) spun the facts beyond recognition, or else* study authors Wingham & Shepherd have done an about face


* I concede there is one more possibility -- maybe it's BeAChooser who spun the facts. Since I'm disinterested in consuming information via propagandists such as CO2 Science, either you or BeAChooser will need to sort it out. Add: Dakotajudo did the legwork (thanks!) and no surprise, the spin is courtesy of CO2 Science.

But in any case, it's clear that BeAChooser supported his claim that Antarctica ice mass is increasing by citing scientists who are on record:
Wingham & Shepard said:
Antarctica and Greenland are each losing mass overall.

rockoon said:
I don't like liars and I don't like people who refuse to do the simplest bit of checking before they spout off about what they claim to "know"
I heartily agree!

I welcome you to retract your dyspeptic tirade, breath not held.
 
Last edited:
Mhaze, earlier in this thread we had this exchange...

Me said:
And what's worse, free market bags of hot air such as Heartland -- DCI Group / Tech Central, George C. Marshall Institute, Malloy@junkscience, CO2 Science [guffaw], Competitive Enterprise Institute, American Enterprise Institute, Cooler Heads Coalition come to mind -- are constantly cited here on a skeptical forum as if their blather should be taken seriously in science debates. This is patently absurd even if they weren't Exxon shills, but that doesn't stop true believers.
mhaze said:
If they are factually correct their funding or orientation politically or otherwise does not matter.
If cows could fly...

It should be painfully evident from dakotajudo's post the type of lies that CO2 Science propagates. To rely on this sort of agenda-driven, fact-challenged source without digging deeper is antithetical to critical thinking. Cites to CO2 Science and their ilk have no place on a skeptical forum, or anywhere else for that matter, regardless one's take on AGW.
 
Odin help me. It's a good idea to actually read what's been posted before launching into yet another fact-challenged tirade. Here again, formatting added:


* I concede there is one more possibility -- maybe it's BeAChooser who spun the facts. Since I'm disinterested in consuming information via propagandists such as CO2 Science, either you or BeAChooser will need to sort it out. Add: Dakotajudo did the legwork (thanks!) and no surprise, the spin is courtesy of CO2 Science.

But in any case, it's clear that BeAChooser supported his claim that Antarctica ice mass is increasing by citing scientists who are on record:


I heartily agree!

I welcome you to retract your dyspeptic tirade, breath not held.


On reflection I come to the opinion - which some will not share no doubt - that anyone who wants to make a point based on evidence should provide it in a straight forward fashion. That means without some convoluted literature search by a third party coming in to locate the source article. It should not be so difficult to provide evidence to support one's position; I am personally going to disregard any assertions of evidence that point to pay-to-read articles. There are too many variations between the summary in a pop sci source (Varouche, yours are as faulty here as CO2science), the abstract, and the actual article.


Here is the actual closing paragraph from Wingham et. al. 2007. Bold is mine.

Food fight!:D

4. Conclusions
We show that 72% of the Antarctic ice sheet is gaining 27
glyph.gif
29Gtyr-1, a sink of ocean mass sufficient to lower global sea levels by 0.08mmyr-1.
The IPCC third assessment (Church & Gregory 2001) partially offset an ongoing sea-level rise due to Antarctic retreat since the last glacial maximum (0.0-0.5mmyr-1) with a twentieth century fall due to increased snowfall (-0.2-0.0mmyr-1). But that assessment relied solely on models that neither captured ice streams nor the Peninsula warming, and the data show both have dominated at least the late twentieth century ice sheet. Even allowing a
glyph.gif
30Gtyr-1 fluctuation in unsurveyed areas, they provide a range of -35-+115Gtyr-1. This range equates to a sea level contribution of -0.3-+0.1mmyr-1 and so Antarctica has provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise. In consequence, the data places a further burden on accounting (Munk 2003) for the twentieth century rise of 1.5-2mmyr-1. What is clear, from the data, is that fluctuations in some coastal regions reflect long-term losses of ice mass, whereas fluctuations elsewhere appear to be short-term changes in snowfall. While the latter are bound to fluctuate about the long-term MAR, the former are not, and so the contribution of retreating glaciers will govern the twenty-first century mass balance of the Antarctic ice sheet.
 
Either CO2 Science (agenda-driven propagandists/doofuses) spun the facts beyond recognition,

That doesn't appear to be the case since the results of the 2006 Wingham & Shepherd study are similarly described in other sources. For example:

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/12/05/sea-level-rise-not-from-antarctic-melting/

Nice try ...

or else study authors Wingham & Shepherd have done an about face...

Perhaps that's true, but my point remains the same. Until about 2006-2007, the bulk (if not all, according to sources describing the GRACE work) of the studies said that Antarctica was overall gaining ice mass, not losing it. Yet, Al Gore and the global walarmists had been painting this dire picture of antarctic ice sheets meeting for years and years before that. So what's that make them? I think the answer is that phrase you used ... "agenda-driven propagandists/doofuses".

Furthermore, your link on the lastest Shepherd and Wingham study states they say "Our best estimate of their combined imbalance is about 125 gigatons per year of ice, enough to raise sea level by 0.35 millimeters per year. This is only a modest contribution to the present rate of sea-level rise of 3.0 millimeters per year. "

Why should a "modest contribution" be such a source of alarm?

Afterall, as noted in the CNN article I linked, NASA says during the last 20,000 years, the west Antarctic sheet, which is the one currently losing most of the mass (the east sheet may still be gaining mass and is three times the size of the west sheet) has lost 2/3rds of its mass and raised sea levels 10 meters. That works out to a rate of 10*1000/20000 = 0.5 mm per year, which is about the same as what your source says the current ice mass loss will do. Without Man being the cause at all. So why is everyone hysterical? Why are you so sure Man is the cause now?

Or look at it this way. At a rate 0.4 mm per year, it will take over 750 years to raise ocean levels just 1 foot. So what's the urgency in passing draconian legislation that will severely damage our economy? I don't see it. And I'm watching ...

And you didn't read all that the latest Wingham and Shepherd look at the data had to say. Here's more:

http://www.newscientist.com/article...mplexity-leaves-sea-level-rise-uncertain.html "Ice sheet complexity leaves sea level rise uncertain ... snip ... The authors emphasise that it is now clear that the ice caps are losing ice faster than it is being replenished by snowfall. But exactly why this is happening remains unknown, making it difficult to predict the extent of future sea level rises."

By the way, the NASA source I cited indicated the uncertainty in the GRACE best estimate of 150 trillion liters of water equivalent lost is 80 trillion liters. That's a HUGE uncertainty. In fact, looking into this in more detail I find statements that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4767296.stm "Overall, Dr Velicogna's group found an annual decrease in ice sheet mass of 152 cubic km. There is a clear loss in the west, whereas the mass of the East Antarctic sheet appears to be constant. ... snip ... Last year an altimeter study indicated that parts of the East Antarctic ice sheet were getting thicker, by about 1.8cm per year. ... snip ... But there is another issue which needs resolving. Grace is unable to discriminate between ice and rock. And the rock surface of Antarctica, below the ice sheet, is rising. The new research paper attempts to correct for this by estimating the rate of rise through computer models of the Earth's interior. But uncertainties in the models produce uncertainties in the team's estimates of changes to the ice: the annual loss could be as low as 72 cubic km, or as high as 232 cubic km."

http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news-print.cfm?art=2378 "By looking at data from Antarctica from April 2002 to August 2005, Velicogna calculates that Antarctica is losing something between 72 and 232 cubic kilometres of ice per year. ... snip ... The main reason for the relatively large uncertainty in how much ice is being lost is that with GRACE data it is hard to distinguish a change in mass due to extra snowfall from a change in mass due to shifts in the crust beneath, says Velicogna. The Antarctic is moving slowly upwards as it rebounds from the melting of glaciers that lay above it during the last ice age. As it shifts, the mass of the Earth's crust is redistributed. This has to be modelled and removed from the equation before the GRACE data can be used to show changes in ice mass. "They're getting the important answer that Antarctica is losing ice mass," says Jay Zwally, a glaciologist from the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. "But the numbers need more work done on them." Zwally and his colleagues recently used satellite data showing surface altitudes to work out the overall mass loss of Antarctica; they concluded it was losing a smaller 19-43 gigatonnes of ice per year, contributing 0.08 millimetres to sea-level rise.

What's that ... 0.08 millimeters per year? Why it would take 3800 years for the sea levels to rise one foot at that rate. Given such uncertainties and the apparent lack of understanding about what really is going on, don't you think it's a bit premature to be talking about 50 cent global warming taxes on gas like the democRATS are doing? Hmmmmm?
 
One more thing, the new study really describes and documentates the fault of the IPCC alarmist report (wich is the core of the matter). Read again the relevant conclusion:

We show that 72% of the Antarctic ice sheet is gaining 2729Gtyr-1, a sink of ocean mass sufficient to lower global sea levels by 0.08mmyr-1. The IPCC third assessment (Church & Gregory 2001) partially offset an ongoing sea-level rise due to Antarctic retreat since the last glacial maximum (0.0-0.5mmyr-1) with a twentieth century fall due to increased snowfall (-0.2-0.0mmyr-1). But that assessment relied solely on models that neither captured ice streams nor the Peninsula warming, and the data show both have dominated at least the late twentieth century ice sheet. Even allowing a 30Gtyr-1 fluctuation in unsurveyed areas, they provide a range of -35-+115Gtyr-1. This range equates to a sea level contribution of -0.3-+0.1mmyr-1 and so Antarctica has provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise
The final conclusion , while may seem as contrary as CO2Science says actually reflects the fact that "Antarctica has provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise" and is coherent with the statement "Contrary to all the horror stories one hears about global warming-induced mass wastage of the Antarctic ice sheet leading to rising sea levels that gobble up coastal lowlands worldwide, the most recent decade of pertinent real-world data suggest that forces leading to just the opposite effect are apparently prevailing, even in the face of what climate alarmists typically describe as the greatest warming of the world in the past two millennia or more."
 
If you round it off, it's damn close.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,175241,00.html "Rolling Stone calls NASA scientist James Hansen the “Paul Revere” of global warming as it was Hansen who famously sounded the alarm about global warming in his 1988 testimony before Congress. But Dr. Hansen’s predictions of global temperature increases have also been famously wrong. While Dr. Hansen predicted a 0.34 degrees Centigrade rise in average global temperatures during the 1990s, actual surface temperatures rose by only one-third as much (0.11 degrees Centigrade) and lower atmosphere temperatures actually declined. ... snip ... Dr. Robert Watson is extolled as “The Messenger” by Rolling Stone. Watson is lauded for leading the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in concluding that humans have already warmed the planet and that the Earth’s temperature will rise by as much as 10 degrees Fahrenheit by 2100. But as pointed out in this column previously, the sort of crystal ball climate modeling that the IPCC report relies on has never been validated against historical temperatures, so it’s difficult to take its predictions of future temperatures too seriously. Moreover, global warming theory and its climate models say that atmospheric temperature increases should be 30 percent greater than surface temperature increases, but they’re not -- they’re actually less. As chairman of the IPCC, Watson was responsible for propagating the myth that only 1 or 2 percent of scientists did not believe humans were responsible for global warming. Watson, of course, overlooked at least 17,000 scientists who signed a petition cautioning against global warming alarmism – a petition compiled with the assistance of former National Academy of Sciences (NAS) president Dr. Frederick Seitz."

From http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DebraJSaunders/2006/06/13/global_warming_fever "Last month in The New York Times, Gregg Easterbrook of the Brookings Institution announced that he had converted from global-warming "skeptic to convert." Easterbrook noted that a 1992 survey found that a mere 17 percent of members of the American Geophysical Union and American Meteorological Society believed in greenhouse-gas climate change. Since then, scientists have found more evidence of the phenomenon. [/b]*Gore was wrong in 1992 when he wrote that 98 percent of scientists agreed with him on global warming. [/b] Witness the survey cited above. *Now, he is wrong when he argues in his movie that there is a complete consensus on global warming today. As proof Gore cites a 2004 study that looked at 928 climate abstracts and found none that refuted global-warming dogma. That says more about the researcher than the scientific community. There are a number of well-known scientists who don't believe that global warming is human-induced, or who believe that if it is, it is not catastrophic. Hurricane expert William Gray of Colorado State University believes the Earth will start to cool within 10 years. Neil Frank, former director of the National Hurricane Center, told The Washington Post that global warming is "a hoax." Climate scientist Robert Lindzen of MIT believes that clouds and water vapor will counteract greenhouse gas emissions." ... snip ... Consider this exchange with ABC's George Stephanopoulos -- formerly of the Clinton-Gore administration -- who questioned Gore's prediction that global-warming could cause sea levels to rise 20 feet. "But the consensus is several inches over the next century. Right?" asked Stephanopoulos on June 4. "Not 20 feet?" "Not at all," Gore replied. He added that the scientists he talks to -- his disciples, if you will -- see it his way. He ignores the less catastrophic theories, which predict a rise of an inch per decade, or 3 feet over the next century. To Gore, the worst-case scenario is the only scenario."

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/317/5834/28a): "Climate scientists are used to skeptics taking potshots at their favorite line of evidence for global warming. It comes with the territory. But now a group of mainstream atmospheric scientists is disputing a rising icon of global warming, and researchers are giving some ground. ... snip ... atmospheric scientist Robert Charlson of the University of Washington, Seattle, one of three authors of a commentary published online last week in Nature Reports: Climate Change. Instead, he and his co-authors argue that the simulation by 14 different climate models of the warming in the 20th century is not the reassuring success IPCC claims it to be. ... snip ... Twentieth-century simulations would seem like a straightforward test of climate models. In the run-up to the IPCC climate science report released last February (Science, 9 February, p. 754), 14 groups ran their models under 20th-century conditions of rising greenhouse gases. As a group, the models did rather well (see figure). ... snip ... But the group of three atmospheric scientists--Charlson; Stephen Schwartz of the Brookhaven National Laboratory in Upton, New York; and Henning Rodhe of Stockholm University, Sweden--says the close match between models and the actual warming is deceptive. ... snip ... To prove their point, the commentary authors note the range of the simulated warmings, that is, the width of the purple band. The range is only half as large as they would expect it to be, they say, considering the large range of uncertainty in the factors driving climate change in the simulations. Greenhouse-gas changes are well known, they note, but not so the counteracting cooling of pollutant hazes, called aerosols. Aerosols cool the planet by reflecting away sunlight and increasing the reflectivity of clouds. Somehow, the three researchers say, modelers failed to draw on all the uncertainty inherent in aerosols so that the 20th-century simulations look more certain than they should.[/b]

And what about the sun? Did they include that in their models?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sun_output_030320.html "In what could be the simplest explanation for one component of global warming, a new study shows the Sun's radiation has increased by .05 percent per decade since the late 1970s. The increase would only be significant to Earth's climate if it has been going on for a century or more, said study leader Richard Willson, a Columbia University researcher also affiliated with NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. The Sun's increasing output has only been monitored with precision since satellite technology allowed necessary observations. Willson is not sure if the trend extends further back in time, but other studies suggest it does. "This trend is important because, if sustained over many decades, it could cause significant climate change," Willson said. In a NASA-funded study recently published in Geophysical Research Letters, Willson and his colleagues speculate on the possible history of the trend based on data collected in the pre-satellite era. "Solar activity has apparently been going upward for a century or more," Willson told SPACE.com today. ... snip ... A separate recent study of Sun-induced magnetic activity near Earth, going back to 1868, provides compelling evidence that the Sun's current increase in output goes back more than a century, Willson said."

I can think of some excellent reasons why reducing US dependence on carbon based fuels would be of a great benefit to the country.

Except they don't have anything to do with global warming. They have to do with *his* and *your* agenda, which not all of us may agree with. The first question to ask is what the effect of a 50 cent gas tax would be on the economy. The second is to ask what they would do with the revenues. And I don't think I like the answer to either question. Perhaps you do, but then that is only indicative of your agenda.
 
Here is the actual closing paragraph from Wingham et. al. 2007. Bold is mine.

Food fight!:D

4. Conclusions
We show that 72% of the Antarctic ice sheet is gaining 27[qimg]http://public.metapress.com/clients/roysoc/html/entlib/plus/special/plusmn/black/med/base/glyph.gif[/qimg]29Gtyr-1, a sink of ocean mass sufficient to lower global sea levels by 0.08mmyr-1. The IPCC third assessment (Church & Gregory 2001) partially offset an ongoing sea-level rise due to Antarctic retreat since the last glacial maximum (0.0-0.5mmyr-1) with a twentieth century fall due to increased snowfall (-0.2-0.0mmyr-1). But that assessment relied solely on models that neither captured ice streams nor the Peninsula warming, and the data show both have dominated at least the late twentieth century ice sheet. Even allowing a [qimg]http://public.metapress.com/clients/roysoc/html/entlib/plus/special/plusmn/black/med/base/glyph.gif[/qimg]30Gtyr-1 fluctuation in unsurveyed areas, they provide a range of -35-+115Gtyr-1. This range equates to a sea level contribution of -0.3-+0.1mmyr-1 and so Antarctica has provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise. In consequence, the data places a further burden on accounting (Munk 2003) for the twentieth century rise of 1.5-2mmyr-1. What is clear, from the data, is that fluctuations in some coastal regions reflect long-term losses of ice mass, whereas fluctuations elsewhere appear to be short-term changes in snowfall. While the latter are bound to fluctuate about the long-term MAR, the former are not, and so the contribution of retreating glaciers will govern the twenty-first century mass balance of the Antarctic ice sheet.

Oh my ... so was I right or wrong? Or is everything just *complicated* and *uncertain*, contrary to what Gore and his global walarmists would have us think? :D
 
I also have lots of excelent reasons to reduce Global dependence on fossil fuel:
- It would turn Hugo Chavez into the small dictator he is , instead of the biggest social-imperialist force in South America.
- It would reduce the power and dependence America and Europa have of islamic countries, reducing their influence and blackmailing capacity.
- It would reduce contaminant emissions that are nocive for humans.
- It would lead to fundamental research and new enterprises challenging the old dominant ones.

The problem is that none of those advantages have anything to do with Global Warming.
 
Mhaze, earlier in this thread we had this exchange...


If cows could fly...

It should be painfully evident from dakotajudo's post the type of lies that CO2 Science propagates. To rely on this sort of agenda-driven, fact-challenged source without digging deeper is antithetical to critical thinking. Cites to CO2 Science and their ilk have no place on a skeptical forum, or anywhere else for that matter, regardless one's take on AGW.

http://gwstudies.blogspot.com/search/label/AGW

This is the link you provided earlier. One look at this blog is all it takes for me to know that the summaries of the articles cannot be trusted to accurately reflect the content of the articles. How is this different than your complaint about CO2science?

I'm willing to read any articles linked to that support a view, and to change my opinions anytime reasonable evidence is presented. Obviously, few would consider a single scientific study's results sufficient, although there are exceptions.

Having said this about the basic science, this has nothing to do with the issues, merits or lack of, of the politically correct phrase "mitigation".

Or in my words which of course I prefer "trillions of dollars of taxes".:D
 
One more thing, the new study really describes and documentates the fault of the IPCC alarmist report (wich is the core of the matter). Read again the relevant conclusion:


The final conclusion , while may seem as contrary as CO2Science says actually reflects the fact that "Antarctica has provided, at most, a negligible component of observed sea-level rise" and is coherent with the statement "Contrary to all the horror stories one hears about global warming-induced mass wastage of the Antarctic ice sheet leading to rising sea levels that gobble up coastal lowlands worldwide, the most recent decade of pertinent real-world data suggest that forces leading to just the opposite effect are apparently prevailing, even in the face of what climate alarmists typically describe as the greatest warming of the world in the past two millennia or more."

You seem to have omitted part of their conclusions. here it is

What is clear, from the data, is that fluctuations in some coastal regions reflect long-term losses of ice mass, whereas fluctuations elsewhere appear to be short-term changes in snowfall. While the latter are bound to fluctuate about the long-term MAR, the former are not, and so the contribution of retreating glaciers will govern the twenty-first century mass balance of the Antarctic ice sheet.

This is in complete opposition to your characterization of the paper. Your characterization is also in opposition to the Abstract of the newer paper in Science by the same Authors.
 
I also have lots of excelent reasons to reduce Global dependence on fossil fuel:
- It would turn Hugo Chavez into the small dictator he is , instead of the biggest social-imperialist force in South America.
- It would reduce the power and dependence America and Europa have of islamic countries, reducing their influence and blackmailing capacity.
- It would reduce contaminant emissions that are nocive for humans.
- It would lead to fundamental research and new enterprises challenging the old dominant ones.

The problem is that none of those advantages have anything to do with Global Warming.

The political schemes being cast on the basis of Global Warming, including Kyoto and its looming BigBrothers, have actually, nothing to do with actually solving Global Warming either.

To understand this one has to just run the numbers....
 
Oh my ... so was I right or wrong? Or is everything just *complicated* and *uncertain*, contrary to what Gore and his global walarmists would have us think? :D

Those actual scientists - You know, the real ones, with certified degreed brains? They don't seem quite as certain as the cheerleaders.:rolleyes:

No substitute for reading the actual sources.
 
Okay, the wild is a paradise for you.

I'm actually a city boy. I don't find Alaska or the Irkutsk at all alluring. Some people, though, regard them as home and like them the way they are. You may think they can be improved, but it's not really your call, is it?

I'll take a couple of these up North, and see what happens then.
[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_1422446c3a1ecb2970.jpg[/URL]

I recommend you sound out local opinion first. A lot of these folk carry rifles, you know, and you won't see them coming ... Don't bother to duck, apparently if you hear the shot it missed :eek: .
 
Lindzen doubts that AGW is proven, but what odds does he call it at? 50/50! He is willing to bet the house on those odds?

I guess he's given up on the Iris Theory.

lindzen seems to have come down to "it's just a guess", which leaves him the "lucky" get-out if he lives long enough. Time was, as I recall, that he was definite about cooling kicking-in soon, but he's one of the saner anti-AGW pundits and won't have missed what's actually been going on over the last couple of decades. He backed the wrong horse once already, now he's trying to wriggle out of it. Which beats burrowing deeper into it, I guess :) .

I'm on record (yes, JREF Forums do count as "record", be afraid, be very afraid ...) as staking my intellectual reputation on the world being warmer than today in 2012. That's staked against nothing, not even a pinch of <rule 8>. Just to prove I've got the (metaphorical) stones for it. The geek version of flexing the pecs.
 

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