Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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Perhaps you could explain how capitalism brought us to this edifice.
That is easy to answer, pteridine - capitalism did not bring us to this edifice :D.
Communist countries emit ~25% of the CO2.
So if you want to do the irrelevant act of blaming the CO2 increase on political systems that it is 75% capitalism + 25% communism.

It is actually the universe you should blame. It foolishly put easily accessible energy in fossil fuels and so we are burning fossil fuels.
 
Thank you. The question was "Given the population of the US, if the US were to emit what other countries are emitting per capita, how would that affect the global CO2 concentration?"
Not at all immediately, of course. A 10% reduction in emissions would have a proportionate effect on the rate the concentration rises subsequently. It would delay the onset of whatever problems will emerge as a result of AGW, for what that's worth. It wouldn't prevent the ones already in efect.
 
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That is easy to answer, pteridine - capitalism did not bring us to this edifice :D.
Communist countries emit ~25% of the CO2.
So if you want to do the irrelevant act of blaming the CO2 increase on political systems that it is 75% capitalism + 25% communism.

It is actually the universe you should blame. It foolishly put easily accessible energy in fossil fuels and so we are burning fossil fuels.

Indeed, it is human nature and the hapenstance of physics which brought the world to this point. Those societies which first exploited the potential of fossil-fuels (except as a sort of famine-fuel) got to screw over the rest in the most recent Age of Empires. Japan, for instance, got to screw over China; the Brits ruled India and what-all else. Naturally everybody else caught on, so we were bound to get to this situation - given the availabilty of fossil-fuels.

I find it interesting to consider what might happen to a similar species on a planet without fossil-fuels. Our Industrial Revolution was launched on wind and water power, not fossil fuels, so presumably the same would happen. A big difference is that those technologies (and solar at some point) would have been more rapidly developed than in our own history (where they became marginalised over a half-century or less). Their Industrial Revolution wouldn't have advanced as quickly, probably making an early Mathusian crisis inevitable, but they'd probably be spared the 1900-50 scale of warfare.

If they observed our current situation they'd congratulate themselves on being far to clever to have done the same thing in the same circumstances (remember, these hypothetical people are just like us :rolleyes:).
 
Since the denier crowd has no basis of refuting the reality of AGW, treating the few languishing adherents as chew toys and pointing out the numerous errors of their flawed sense of the physical processes of the planet is all that's left.

There is no basis to put forth an argument against AGW so they huff off....just like you just did....in high dudgeon.

Too bad they don't discuss what to do about it instead...might actually be something worth arguing about.
 
I stopped by to see if anything changed. It's the same crew, making arguments out of insults. Not interesting.

I disagree....

It's the same crew

I've only started posting to this thread in the last couple of days...

making arguments out of insults

I'm pretty sure that I have not insulted anyone in this thread yet.
 
Too simplistic. As you said "Fossil fuels are the most cost-efficient fuel source around." Why would any political system choose something different unless it had the excess wealth and resources to do so. Developing countries do not have the luxury of not using the least expensive energy sources. Rather than political system, maybe the measure should be level of development.

You're right, fossil fuels are too cheap and viable alternatives will not be implemented until they are cost effective compared to fossil fuels. One of the reasons why fossil fuels are comparatively inexpensive is that, unlike nuclear energy for example, the "clean up" costs are not factored in.
 
I wonder if, just in terms of the oceans, OA isn't a considerably smaller threat than industrialised fishing (quite apart from AGW). By the time it kicks in there'll be nothing much left for it to kick in on.

Overfishing is one of the reasons we're seeing such a fast OA.
 
I disagree....

It's the same crew

I've only started posting to this thread in the last couple of days...

making arguments out of insults

I'm pretty sure that I have not insulted anyone in this thread yet.
Deniers' ability to see only the cherry-picked facts they want to see whilst ignoring mountain of empirical evidence extends to seeing only the slightly hostile posts on a thread whilst ignoring the many more polite, fact filled ones.

I've seen this in many woo posters on this board, actually; a couple of slightly rude posts from one or two (usually understandably) frustrated sceptics are used to justify abandoning a thread, leaving the dozens of polite posts which demolish their position unaddressed.
 
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Any chance this could be the answer or more vaporware?

http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-n...ered-to-make-fuel-from-co2-in-air_838185.html

Washington: Researchers have found a way to transform the carbon dioxide (CO2) trapped in the atmosphere into useful industrial products.

The discovery may soon lead to the development of biofuels made directly from the CO2 in the air - responsible for global warming.

"Basically, what we have done is create a microorganism that does with carbon dioxide exactly what plants do-absorb it and generate something useful," Michael Adams, member of UGA's Bioenergy Systems Research Institute, Georgia Power professor of biotechnology and Distinguished Research Professor of biochemistry and molecular biology in the Franklin College of Arts and Science, said.

"What this discovery means is that we can remove plants as the middleman," said Adams, co-author of the study.

"We can take carbon dioxide directly from the atmosphere and turn it into useful products like fuels and chemicals without having to go through the inefficient process of growing plants and extracting sugars from biomass," he said.
 
You're right, fossil fuels are too cheap and viable alternatives will not be implemented until they are cost effective compared to fossil fuels. One of the reasons why fossil fuels are comparatively inexpensive is that, unlike nuclear energy for example, the "clean up" costs are not factored in.

This is correct and universally applicable. Cradle-to-grave analyses of energy technologies is often avoided by proponents because it brings unwelcome information to the fore. Fermentation ethanol, bio-diesel, hybrid vehicles, the so-called hydrogen economy, nuclear power, undersea CO2 sequestration as hydrates, and other such "solutions" have problems and unintended consequences of their own. Each tribe will select what they perceive to be the least of the evils and push to convince the other tribes that they have the solution. Failures are inevitable and some tribes rejoice when another tribe's pet solution fails or has a setback.
As to fossil fuels, at present, the world is too dependent on them and has an infrastructure designed for their use in place, so the ability to change is limited and the cost of change is too high to absorb in a short time frame. This conversion will require sequential steps to make the transition, smoothly and with minimal disruption. The pathway here is to use less, of course, through efficiency improvements in energy production and use. The stick is a carbon tax, an artificial price increase that works to drive technology to use less or find alternatives. The consumer will pay and this will move markets toward more efficient alternatives. The carrot is a subsidy, such as those for fermentation ethanol, that will allow an industry to build to a critical mass so as to become competitive...or not. Call it government directed capitalism. In my opinion, this works better than a "five year plan" or some such, as dictated by an undefined political structure that some on this board propose.
 

It is unlikely that this will be a solution. These technologies work for high-value, low-volume products such as drugs but are not cost effective for high-volume, low-value products such as fuels. Look at volumetric efficiency and calculate the size of the vats needed to produce a given volume of fuel. There are also capital and operating costs to consider as one must but the vats and then control temperature and feed the bugs while their secondary metabolism is turning out product. The big problem is that hydrogen must be provided to the bugs. If one has low-cost hydrogen, one doesn't need to be constrained by a biological process.
The eco-news editor was desperate for a story.
 
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It is unlikely that this will be a solution. These technologies work for high-value, low-volume products such as drugs but are not cost effective for high-volume, low-value products such as fuels. Look at volumetric efficiency and calculate the size of the vats needed to produce a given volume of fuel. There are also capital and operating costs to consider as one must but the vats and then control temperature and feed the bugs while their secondary metabolism is turning out product. The big problem is that hydrogen must be provided to the bugs. If one has low-cost hydrogen, one doesn't need to be constrained by a biological process.
The eco-news editor was desperate for a story.

I'm afraid you are correct. It will take a lot to beat photosynthesis, and CO2 levels are rising despite having sufficient photosynthesis to support the entire biosphere.
 
This is correct and universally applicable. Cradle-to-grave analyses of energy technologies is often avoided by proponents because it brings unwelcome information to the fore.

That cuts both ways as the knock on costs of fossil fuels are also not calculated and if they were - coal is more costly than the value it provides.

That the US military is engaged in bio-fuel mass production tech development is very encouraging ...they are the largest single user on the planet and have security issues.

Brazil has moved well forward on sugar cane usage with very high efficiencies and solar is coming on gangbusters for cost of power tho storage and grid remain a problem.

Carbon tax is the approach rather than try to put a cost on the downstream damage just make it untenable. Trying to derail a $7 trillion industry can only be done at the state level tho grass roots solutions are also having some success at the individual, the corporate and the sub-nation state and city levels with these entities seeking their own set of solutions as the nation states wibble.

Sweden is furtherest ahead to carbon neutral and some surrounding Nordic nations and France do well.

Australia has a carbon tax and strong solar incentives which soon will be phased out as the cost has dropped dramatically -

Portland Oregon as a city is a model for green and the citizens are behind it. They have a department of sustainable development focusing on low carbon.

Ontario as a province with a large industrial economy comparable to smaller nation states has gone from 25% coal to zero in 10 years.

Bank of America has a LEEDs platinum head office as does OWC.

Grass root individuals of all sorts are rolling out patched together solutions


The biggest issue is industrial power requirements and the India and China which need any power they can get.
China is doing okay given it's needs but is still building coal plants along with large solar and something like 21 nukes plus instituting strict environment laws ( vehicle emission standards are stricter than NA )
India is going forward on nuclear and solar
 
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solar can now compete unsubsidized with fossil fuels in India and Italy.
and yes the the downstream cost of coal use is not factored in and would make it entirely uneconomic if it was.

http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org/Issues/AlaskaCoal/CoalTrueCost.html


You're right, fossil fuels are too cheap and viable alternatives will not be implemented until they are cost effective compared to fossil fuels. One of the reasons why fossil fuels are comparatively inexpensive is that, unlike nuclear energy for example, the "clean up" costs are not factored in.
This is correct and universally applicable. Cradle-to-grave analyses of energy technologies is often avoided by proponents because it brings unwelcome information to the fore. Fermentation ethanol, bio-diesel, hybrid vehicles, the so-called hydrogen economy, nuclear power, undersea CO2 sequestration as hydrates, and other such "solutions" have problems and unintended consequences of their own. Each tribe will select what they perceive to be the least of the evils and push to convince the other tribes that they have the solution. Failures are inevitable and some tribes rejoice when another tribe's pet solution fails or has a setback.
As to fossil fuels, at present, the world is too dependent on them and has an infrastructure designed for their use in place, so the ability to change is limited and the cost of change is too high to absorb in a short time frame. This conversion will require sequential steps to make the transition, smoothly and with minimal disruption. The pathway here is to use less, of course, through efficiency improvements in energy production and use. The stick is a carbon tax, an artificial price increase that works to drive technology to use less or find alternatives. The consumer will pay and this will move markets toward more efficient alternatives. The carrot is a subsidy, such as those for fermentation ethanol, that will allow an industry to build to a critical mass so as to become competitive...or not. Call it government directed capitalism. In my opinion, this works better than a "five year plan" or some such, as dictated by an undefined political structure that some on this board propose.


Photovoltaic solar is a bloodbath at the moment (I don't know about solar thermal). There is massive oversupply (Bosch is just leaving after a 2.4-billion Euro loss since 2008)

I keep getting emails at work from receivers auctioning off PV manufacturing lines.

This is to be expected, and will drive the price down, opening more applications for this, and driving the next upswing in the takeup of PV, and with more efficient technologies.

As you say though - for transport, fossil fuels are very good as far as energy density and infrastructure are concerned. The alternatives are nowhere near as attractive - or even practical if you are talking about flight (at least there are high speed electric trains) and nuclear powered ships (even if costly).
 
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