Cont: Global warming discussion V

New Zealand's planet-heating gases hit lowest level since 1999
Clean energy is behind the country's lowest greenhouse gases since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.

New Zealand has now cut its planet-heating gases for three years in a row, with the latest drop the biggest since climate change efforts began.

A major reason was burning less coal and gas to make electricity... More efficient vehicles also contributed, with road transport burning less fuel despite similar kilometres travelled... Other factors included closure of Marsden Point oil refinery and a slight drop in sheep, beef cattle and fertiliser use by farmers.
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Air New Zealand picks Wellington and Marlborough airports for battery plane trial
Air New Zealand will use the battery-powered ALIA CTOL from Beta Technologies, initially in a cargo-only service in partnership with NZ Post...

The ALIA aircraft weighs three tonnes, is just over 12m long, and will fly at up to 270km/h. It has already flown test flights of close to 500km.
The distance from Wellington to Marlborough Airport Blenheim is about 73km...

Small battery-powered planes could fly regional passenger routes later this decade.
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Air NZ to fly electric planes from Wellington to Marlborough
The Beta ALIA aircraft is a crucial step towards lower emissions, with figures published in 2023 showing 12 percent of New Zealand's carbon emissions were from aviation compared to the world average of just 2.8 percent...

"It's a short hop, and the charging, we think, will be quite short. So, we are hoping it will go six to eight times a day."

"This is just a very small step in what will be a more significant piece of work, to see what sort of passenger planes we could bring in that would be lower carbon planes."
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Stout said:
Ah yes, the miniscule energy savings approach, the classic denialist tactic.
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Maybe take a lower seat on that high horse, mate, I'm not a denier and my numerous posts in the thread prove that.

Zealotry isn't a great way to influence people.
 
Palmerston North buses go 100% electric, in first for NZ
Palmerston North's streets have become busier - but quieter...

From Monday, the city's bus fleet is 100 percent electric - a first in New Zealand - as more than 40 new buses enter service as part of a huge investment in public transport.

Services in the city are more than doubling.

City bus driver Charles Te Peeti said the new buses were smoother and came without the smell of diesel wafting through from the "ratty engines"...

Services now run later in the evenings and go every 15 minutes during peak times.

There are 610 services each weekday, up from 324. At weekends there are 428 a day, up from 107 on Saturdays and 77 on Sundays.

Horizons Regional Council transport manager Mark Read said he would love to see passenger numbers top one million a year, up from 610,000 in the year to June 2023, and 455,000 since July...

Howard said it took between one and three hours to charge each bus. They were fully charged overnight and would get through a day's service.
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Stout said:
Try it, just for fun, then compare it to what's realistically possible and probable.

Take the Swiss for example. Swiss activists just won a major human rights victory. Switzerland in (on paper) a pretty green economy, at least in the summer but when you figure all the stuff the Swiss import then their energy gluttons. How to green up Switzerland. Really green, I mean. Get those emissions down to 3 tonnes/pp so the old ladies can go outside in the summer.

Massive import duties with the proceeds put into wind and solar?
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Swiss emissions of CO2 have plummeted.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/449824/co2-emissions-switzerland/

They are among the best in the world for recycling, carbon capture and sustainability.
https://sumas.ch/5-examples-of-sustainability-in-switzerland/

They are switching Transalpine freight traffic from road to rail.
https://www.bav.admin.ch/bav/en/hom...ght-transport/transfer-from-road-to-rail.html

Oil consumption is significantly less than it was 10 years ago.
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/switzerland/oil-consumption

Now tell me how using less plastic, reducing food waste, cutting down on meat/beef and the rest of the suggestions I made are unrealistic.
Also, if anyone can explain to me why it is suddenly my responsibility to force the world to go green I would love to hear why.
 
The Atheist said:
Zealotry isn't a great way to influence people.
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Seems to work for eco-activists. All that gluing themselves to things, disrupting events, blocking roads and getting arrested in camera has convinced millions of energy guzzling westerners that all they need to do to combat climate change is put a sign on their lawn and smash that like button.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Now tell me how using less plastic, reducing food waste, cutting down on meat/beef and the rest of the suggestions I made are unrealistic.
Also, if anyone can explain to me why it is suddenly my responsibility to force the world to go green I would love to hear why.
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Because it's not enough, it's nowhere near enough which is why the senior Swiss launched their lawsuit.

Swiss CO2 emissions: Small country, big footprint

Switzerland’s large footprint is partly driven by all the goods it imports. If emissions generated via imports are counted, the footprint of each resident of Switzerland is 14 tonnes of CO2 per year. In comparison, the global average is six tonnes.
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Cosmic Yak said:
Now tell me how using less plastic, reducing food waste, cutting down on meat/beef and the rest of the suggestions I made are unrealistic.
Also, if anyone can explain to me why it is suddenly my responsibility to force the world to go green I would love to hear why.
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They are certainly realistic ways to reduce emissions.
What is unrealistic is the idea you are going to get enough people on board to make a difference.

No it's not your responsibility to tell us how to get people on board, but since you think it is a realistic solution, you must have some ideas about how to
implement that solution.

If you don't, then it is not realistic after all.
 
Stout said:
Seems to work for eco-activists. All that gluing themselves to things, disrupting events, blocking roads and getting arrested in camera has convinced millions of energy guzzling westerners that all they need to do to combat climate change is put a sign on their lawn and smash that like button.
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Precisely.

That's why much as I agree with the goals of Extinction Rebellion, what they're doing is counter-productive.

Skeptical Greg said:
NZ appears to be a great poster child for making a difference..
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Yeah... nah.

It's easy to be fooled by green propaganda.

Take into account our new government, which in the space of 6 months has taken the following steps:

Remove EV subsidies
Remove taxes on high-emission vehicles
Tax EVs the same as ICE vehicles
Re-open gas/oil exploration
Explore re-commissioning a fuel refinery
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Nice image of concept.
Get back to us when its something that's making a real difference in global emissions.
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It's not just a concept.

Beta Technologies
In March 2021, the ALIA-250 made a test flight from Plattsburgh, New York, across Lake Champlain to Burlington, Vermont. In April, United Parcel Service (UPS) entered into a contract for ten ALIA-250 aircraft to be supplied in 2024, which included the option for UPS to acquire up to 150 more aircraft. UPS announced it planned to have them travel directly to and from UPS facilities, rather than use airports. In April, Blade Urban Air Mobility made a commitment to purchase up to 20 ALIA aircraft, becoming BETA's first passenger service company. In May, the U.S. Air Force's Public Affairs office announced that Beta Technologies was granted the Air Force's first airworthiness certificate as a part of the AFWERX Agility Prime program, allowing the military to begin using the company's aircraft for test flights. Also in May, the company announced it was building a 270,000 square-foot manufacturing facility at the Burlington International Airport, with a planned production capacity of 250–400 EV aircraft per year.

In April 2022, aircraft lessor Lease Corporation International placed an order for fifty ALIA aircraft, and in August that year, vertical lift aircraft operator Bristow Helicopters ordered five ALIA with options for an additional fifty.

In March 2023, the company sought FAA certification for a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant of its ALIA aircraft, dubbed the CX300, and had received orders for the new product from Bristow, Air New Zealand, and United Therapeutics.
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Once FAA certification is complete these aircraft can be put into commercial service, and they will be 'making a real difference'. More importantly though, this will open the door for other manufacturers to produce similar and larger electric aircraft.

At a production rate of 400 per year BETA should have ~3600 in service by 2035. This might not sound like a lot, but the most popular aircraft in the world by far - the Cessna 172 - only achieved 44,000 from 1956 to 2015. If other manufacturers follow suit then electric aircraft could quickly take over short-haul routes, as airlines will prefer them due to lower operating costs and greater flexibility.

For example, UPS is looking at flying directly from their warehouses rather than from airports, which could them save them a bundle on transportation costs as well as significantly reducing GHG emissions.

NZ appears to be a great poster child for making a difference..
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And yet we aren't officially doing much. There is a small tax on fuel to pay for carbon credits, but that is nothing compared to higher gas prices caused by other factors (war in Ukraine etc.). Apart from that there are no government incentives, fees, support or encouragement. So yes, we are a poster child for what can be achieved when it's left up to the individual (business or private citizen) to do the right thing.
 
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Stout said:
Seems to work for eco-activists. All that gluing themselves to things, disrupting events, blocking roads and getting arrested in camera has convinced millions of energy guzzling westerners that all they need to do to combat climate change is put a sign on their lawn and smash that like button.
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You're wrong about that.

Those stunts might not have a direct effect but they do get people thinking - about what we could do that would really make a difference. That's why getting information to them about what can practically be done to address it important. And by that I don't mean telling them that EVs will only make a minuscule difference so if you're not living in a 15 minute city situation and still drive a car, you're part of the problem. Not only is that impractical advice, it's dead wrong.

If you walk, or ride, or drive an EV then you have part of the solution. If you have solar panels or buy low carbon electricity and don't use gas then you have a further part of the solution. If you eat less meat and produce less waste you have yet another part. Any one of these things helps, but put them all togther and you are making a big difference. Get other people to do the same and we are winning.

But tell people they have to give up their car and live less than 15 minutes from work and they will rightly balk at it. That does a lot more harm than a few attention-seekers gluing themselves to things.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
They are certainly realistic ways to reduce emissions.
What is unrealistic is the idea you are going to get enough people on board to make a difference.

No it's not your responsibility to tell us how to get people on board, but since you think it is a realistic solution, you must have some ideas about how to
implement that solution.

If you don't, then it is not realistic after all.
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Are you claiming that there have been no significant changes in consumer behaviour towards more eco-friendly solutions at all, anywhere, ever?
 
Roger Ramjets said:
You're wrong about that.

Those stunts might not have a direct effect but they do get people thinking - about what we could do that would really make a difference. That's why getting information to them about what can practically be done to address it important. And by that I don't mean telling them that EVs will only make a minuscule difference so if you're not living in a 15 minute city situation and still drive a car, you're part of the problem. Not only is that impractical advice, it's dead wrong.

If you walk, or ride, or drive an EV then you have part of the solution. If you have solar panels or buy low carbon electricity and don't use gas then you have a further part of the solution. If you eat less meat and produce less waste you have yet another part. Any one of these things helps, but put them all togther and you are making a big difference. Get other people to do the same and we are winning.

But tell people they have to give up their car and live less than 15 minutes from work and they will rightly balk at it. That does a lot more harm than a few attention-seekers gluing themselves to things.
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We've already determined that while these solutions are all well and good, they're nowhere near enough to avert climate disaster. Just look at the the state of current warming. Not only was 1.5C set as a sort of doomsday marker that we all need to avoid, now, depending on your source eg. Extinction Rebellion, we're already there.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Are you claiming that there have been no significant changes in consumer behaviour towards more eco-friendly solutions at all, anywhere, ever?
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FYI:

'Staggering' rise of rooftop solar to put all other power generation in the shade, report finds

  • In short: The capacity of rooftop solar will soon exceed that of coal, gas and hydro combined in Australia's main grid, a green energy report finds.
  • There is already almost 20GW of rooftop solar in Australia, but this is forecast to more than triple in coming decades.
  • What's next: The report's authors argue rooftop solar will play an outsized role in helping Australia meet its climate goals.
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arthwollipot said:
FYI:

'Staggering' rise of rooftop solar to put all other power generation in the shade, report finds
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I visited a shopping centre the other day, where the car parks have been covered by arrays of solar panels.

Of course, this won't shut up the people that like to pretend that solar panels have to take up valuable farmland.

[IMGW=300]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1467&pictureid=14001[/IMGW]

This is what they look like from the side:

[IMGW=400]https://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1467&pictureid=14002[/IMGW]
 
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