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Cont: Global warming discussion V

That's...nonsense.

The Ultra Low Emission Zone and Low Emission Zones are designed to reduce air pollution and increase air quality. They have reduced the air pollution in London by an incredible amount.
Zero Emissions means...zero emissions. They do not emit any greenhouse gases, and with regards to some types zero anything at all.

Carbon Neutral means that the effect of using whatever it is is outweighed in some way by reducing CO2 in the atmosphere. Usually this is either by planting trees or by using carbon capturing technology to extract the CO2 out of the air and then store it (or use it potentially).

CO2 emissions ARE bad (as a generality) because they are a greenhouse gas. Greenhouse gases increasing the heat capture of the atmosphere increasing the temperature of the planet.

So apart from the general concept of reducing your carbon footprint involving consuming less, everything you said is wrong.


I used to believe that, not any more, and some people are out there gathering the data that proves we're being lied to;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n01GckFEkck&t=644s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJpRrztcDM&t=28s
 
Yes, because one guy with a youtube channel disproves the actual studies into this.
Just a matter of interest (and because you probably won't bother actually paying any attention - you managed to respond to a 26 minute video in less than 5 <edit> 2), this guy checked the device against London Council monitoring stations, stood next to them and compared the readings in real time - they were practically identical (ETA >> 21:40 in the second video).

There's absolutely zero doubt - the filthiest air you can breathe in London is on the Underground (ETA >> by a large margin).
 
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I used to believe that, not any more, and some people are out there gathering the data that proves we're being lied to;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n01GckFEkck&t=644s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QJpRrztcDM&t=28s

He's measuring particulates (PM10 and PM2.5) in the air, and HCHO aka Formaldehyde. This has nothing to do with CO2 emissions. Look at the meter he has in his hand, thats where I got those figures.

Things like catalytic convertors and not burning coal all over London is what has brought these down. Paradoxically, particulates in the air caused some global cooling which was mitigating the greenhouse effect.
 
No you're right, I didn't watch the video of some guy comparing his measurements with the government ones. Because it's one guy not performing an actual scientific study.

You do know that the readings are measured over multiple days, right? That having high readings on a day doesn't mean the general air quality is bad right?

If you have actual scientific studies that show that the average air quality in London is not dramatically better than it was before the implementation of the LEZ/ULEZ zones then I'd certainly love to read them. I'm not watching some rando taking measurements and declaring that the government is lying based on single measurements.

Incidentally the fact that his readings were practically identical rather makes the point for me. If the readings of the government sensors were different it could mean the sensors weren't calibrated correctly, or that they were deliberately fiddled or some other thing that indicates that the large scale averaged studies were not accurate.

But they weren't. They were, in your own words, practically identical. So he took readings on a day that was particularly bad, it happens. No one is claiming that the air quality is perfect nor that it is the exact same every day. What they ARE claiming, and demonstrating, is that average air quality is improving dramatically.

It's a major city, air quality is never going to be perfect.

However it comes as 0 surprise that the underground has the worst air quality. There is work being done by Transport for London (who are not the Government, nor are they run by nor answerable to Sadiq Khan, for the record) to improve the underground as well.

Incidentally did you know that the ULEZ/LEZ and Congestion Charge are 0 profit? Once the costs are taken out (advertising, staff costs etc) all the money left over is put straight back into improving the London transport network. Funding 0 emission replacements for buses and taxis, paying for repairs on the underground and so on.

Also the pay of people who work for TfL in the ULEZ/LEZ isn't exactly high. They're paid a decent wage certainly, but it's not like they're rolling in cash.
 
He's measuring particulates (PM10 and PM2.5) in the air, and HCHO aka Formaldehyde. This has nothing to do with CO2 emissions. Look at the meter he has in his hand, thats where I got those figures.

Things like catalytic convertors and not burning coal all over London is what has brought these down. Paradoxically, particulates in the air caused some global cooling which was mitigating the greenhouse effect.
You don't say? First of all, you obviously missed it when I said I think "The Greenhouse Effect" and CO2 being a "greenhouse gas" is a bunch of advertising horse****.

Second of all, if modern vehicles with cats have already cleaned up the air in (de-industrialised) cities like London, well, what's the rationale for effectively banning them altogether again?

And "particulates caused ... some global cooling"!!?? You guys are a hoot!
 
And please read the stated rationale of the 'ULEZ' in London, now expanded to 200 square miles (as given by lying sack of **** Sadiq Khan, great dictator of Londonistan); that it's for the peoples' "health" because vehicle emissions "contribute to 4000 premature deaths a year in London".
 
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You don't say? First of all, you obviously missed it when I said I think "The Greenhouse Effect" and CO2 being a "greenhouse gas" is a bunch of advertising horse****.

Second of all, if modern vehicles with cats have already cleaned up the air in (de-industrialised) cities like London, well, what's the rationale for effectively banning them altogether again?

And "particulates caused ... some global cooling"!!?? You guys are a hoot!

Particulates block sunlight this is not a difficult concept to accept I should have thought. Ever seen pictures of London the 1950's or LA in the 1970's?
 
You don't say? First of all, you obviously missed it when I said I think "The Greenhouse Effect" and CO2 being a "greenhouse gas" is a bunch of advertising horse****.


No, it isn't. The greenhouse effect is very real. I'm sorry, are you saying that global warming isn't real?
Second of all, if modern vehicles with cats have already cleaned up the air in (de-industrialised) cities like London,
Partly. Not completely.
Progress is good but no one is claiming it's perfect.
well, what's the rationale for effectively banning them altogether again?
But they aren't banned. You can drive whatever vehicle you like into the Ultra Low Emission or Low Emission Zones. It's just that if your vehicle doesn't meet the standards you have to pay for the privilege of driving your polluting car around.


And "particulates caused ... some global cooling"!!?? You guys are a hoot!
Yes, some things reduced the effect of Global Warming. That's not controversial unless you're a science denying idiot like the delusional liar Christopher Monckton.
 
And please read the stated rationale of the 'ULEZ' in London, now expanded to 200 square miles (as given by lying sack of **** Sadiq Khan, great dictator of Londonistan); that it's for the peoples' "health" because vehicle emissions "contribute to 4000 premature deaths a year in London".

Which it is.

You do know he isn't a dictator and has to win regular elections right?

Also what lies is he spreading, exactly?
 
That I don't give a **** about what it costs. I made it so clear that most people wouldn't have had to ask what my point was.

This is the root of the issue. You don't care how much it costs, so you'd rather go with the method that makes you feel good.

Whereas I'm suggesting we go with one that will achieve the same, but with a lower cost, enabling us to afford other important things.
 
Complaining that nuclear power is unsafe by using Chernobyl as a comparison is like claiming modern cars are unsafe because the Ford Model T didn't have seatbelts and airbags.

Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen not because it was a nuclear plant but because it as a stunningly poorly built and badly designed nuclear plant with next to no safety features that was badly run by incompetent morons with no real oversight.
 
Complaining that nuclear power is unsafe by using Chernobyl as a comparison is like claiming modern cars are unsafe because the Ford Model T didn't have seatbelts and airbags.

Chernobyl was a disaster waiting to happen not because it was a nuclear plant but because it as a stunningly poorly built and badly designed nuclear plant with next to no safety features that was badly run by incompetent morons with no real oversight.

I suppose there's a real concern about nuclear power generally, because if we're really trying to get the whole globe off the fossil fuel teat, that's going to mean nuclear power plants running in less wealthy, less sophisticated nations that one could easily imagine repeating Chernobyl style incompetence.

That said, I don't see how that's any reason for why wealthy, high tech societies shouldn't be making the switch over to nuke power as quickly as they can. Considering that these large, wealthy countries are also consuming the most power, it seems a no-brainer to start there. Start by greening up these big energy consumers and deal with the "how do you let a dirt poor country run a nuke plant" problem later.
 
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Just a matter of interest (and because you probably won't bother actually paying any attention - you managed to respond to a 26 minute video in less than 5 <edit> 2), this guy checked the device against London Council monitoring stations, stood next to them and compared the readings in real time - they were practically identical (ETA >> 21:40 in the second video).

There's absolutely zero doubt - the filthiest air you can breathe in London is on the Underground (ETA >> by a large margin).

He didn't respond to a 26 min video, he responded to your 100 word post.
 
You don't say? First of all, you obviously missed it when I said I think "The Greenhouse Effect" and CO2 being a "greenhouse gas" is a bunch of advertising horse****.
Your ignorance of reality won't change reality.
 
That said, I don't see how that's any reason for why wealthy, high tech societies shouldn't be making the switch over to nuke power as quickly as they can. Considering that these large, wealthy countries are also consuming the most power, it seems a no-brainer to start there. Start by greening up these big energy consumers and deal with the "how do you let a dirt poor country run a nuke plant" problem later.
Problem is if we start by building more nuclear power plants it be 10 years or longer before they come online. That's 10 years of burning fossil fuels that will make the situation much worse.

However If we start by prioritizing renewables, then when those nuclear plants finally become operational we will already be half way there, and need less of them.

MarkCorrigan said:
Complaining that nuclear power is unsafe by using Chernobyl as a comparison is like claiming modern cars are unsafe because the Ford Model T didn't have seatbelts and airbags.
Modern cars can go much faster, are generally heavier, and are driven at high speed a lot more, so they are inherently less safe. That has been mitigated by adding seatbelts and airbags and crumple zones and other safety features. But those features cost money, making modern cars a lot more expensive.

Similarly, modern nuclear plants are only safe because a lot of effort is put into making them so. They take a long time to build right and the power they produce is more expensive than other sources, including wind and solar. In the future this lack of competitiveness will get worse. That means from a purely economic standpoint it doesn't make sense to bet the farm on nuclear alone.

You say 'wealthy' countries can afford it, but is that really true? Western countries have generated their wealth through market economies that are actually quite fragile, and the wealth is not spread around evenly. Just because the US for example is 'rich', doesn't mean it can sink a large percentage of GDP into projects that that won't provide a return for a decade or so without affecting the economy. The poor will suffer first, then the political backlash could be severe.

Many places in the World are not suitable locations for nuclear power plants. They need to be close to a large source of water that doesn't mind being heated up, and located away from earthquake, volcanic, tsunami, flooding and wildfire zones - and of course not in war zones. In some countries that's impossible. Maybe in the future we will develop nuclear power plants that aren't so picky, but that's not now.

Countries which have the most need to build new nuclear plants are doing it. China currently has 21 plants under construction, India has 8, Turkey has 4, Egypt, South Korea and Russia have 3 each, Japan and the UK have 2 each. China is the most important because they are currently burning way more coal than any other country in the world. And you can bet they aren't holding out on nuclear over irrational safety concerns.

The IEA predicts that between now and 2040 nuclear will be dominated by China and other developing economies, while advanced economies overall will reduce nuclear capacity as they ramp up renewables. By 2050 the total added nuclear capacity of 20GW will be matched by the retirement of a similar amount - IOW we will be building a lot more new reactors than we are now just to replace old ones being decommissioned.
 

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