Cont: Global warming discussion V

I assume this is Myriad's pathetic answer to my post 1,839:
The Denmark Archipelago will be a lovely place in a few centuries.
I hope they develop good trade relations with the inhabitants of the Island of New England, especially the tideskippers of the Hudson Strait.
'Ha, ha! In a couple of centuries, your country will have disappeared!'

As if I hadn't already pointed that out:
List of countries by average (!) elevation (Wikipedia)
Top (or bottom) 10:
Maldives 1.5 m
Tuvalu 1.8 m
Kiribati 2 m
Marshall Islands 2 m
Singapore 15 m
Qatar 28 m
Netherlands 30 m
Denmark 34 mGambia 34 m
Estonia 61 m

I think 98% of Denmark will have disappeared at 66 m.
I am not quite sure what Myriad's point is. Could it really be that he is trying to save Denmark, one cold shower at the time?
This is exactly the reason why more than the virtue signalling of taking cold showers and recycling your cans is necessary. And why some countries are doing it while others go, 'Drill, baby, drill.' With the alternative being, 'We can both drill, baby, drill and pretend that we are protecting the environment at the same time. We are Americans. We can do both.'
 
What is your purpose in continuing this argument?
To demonstrate that I was telling the truth, and not 'maliciously reframing' your points. I don't like being described that way: it's both rude and hurtful.
I note that, after I took the trouble to show that I was accurately recalling and retelling your posts, suddenly you have nothing to say. Interesting.

There is another point as well. Your determination to dissuade anyone reading your posts from changing their life choices so as to reduce carbon emissions is counterproductive in terms of fighting global warming, and playing into the hands of the fossil fuel companies. I think it worthwhile to combat this narrative.
 
Drill baby drill is simply a reaction to the public's insatiable demand for oil with the added bonus of energy security.

Fun fact: My neighbour's kid figured out it was actually cheaper to fly to see a concert in Poland than it was to see the same act locally. There's 16K km/person's worth of CO2 squirted into the atmosphere just for a weekend away.
 
My neighbour's kid figured out it was actually cheaper to fly to see a concert in Poland than it was to see the same act locally. There's 16K km/person's worth of CO2 squirted into the atmosphere just for a weekend away.
That's either an incredibly cheap airfare, or the local concert tickets are ridiculously expensive. I guess tickets are cheaper in Poland because the people there are poorer. Poor people don't take 16 thousand km weekend flights to concerts.

The solution is simple - just make airline operators pay the true cost of the fossil fuels they are burning - including the cost to suck it back out of the atmosphere. Then ticket prices will quadruple and people will fly a lot less. This will also have the benefit of relieving pressure on air traffic controllers.

When I was kid nobody in our family could afford a plane trip to anywhere, let alone Europe. Back in the 1960's we were 'poor' but still had enough to feel good about life. Every year the boss and his wife would go for a holiday in Europe, while we went on low-cost camping holidays. I reckon we got more enjoyment from that they did spending hours and hours cooped up in an airliner hoping it wouldn't crash and kill them (which it eventually did).

My point is - people today complain about how their lifestyles would be negatively affected if we did what's needed to stop global warming, but they aren't even happy with the affluent lifestyles they are currently living. It's not just nostalgia that makes me wish we were back in the 60's. We appreciated what we had a lot more back then. But that's not what I'm talking about.

In 1965 the global population was 3.3 billion. Now it's 8.2 billion, 2.5 times higher. That alone is enough to put a severe strain on the environment. Western countries have managed to reverse the increasing carbon footprint per person in recent years, but getting to net zero is a lot harder now than if we had started earlier.

History of climate change science
In 1965, the landmark report "Restoring the Quality of Our Environment" by U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson's Science Advisory Committee warned of the harmful effects of fossil fuel emissions:

The part that remains in the atmosphere may have a significant effect on climate; carbon dioxide is nearly transparent to visible light, but it is a strong absorber and back radiator of infrared radiation, particularly in the wave lengths from 12 to 18 microns; consequently, an increase of atmospheric carbon dioxide could act, much like the glass in a greenhouse, to raise the temperature of the lower air.

The committee used the recently available global temperature reconstructions and carbon dioxide data from Charles David Keeling and colleagues to reach their conclusions. They declared the rise of atmospheric carbon dioxide levels to be the direct result of fossil fuel burning. The committee concluded that human activities were sufficiently large to have significant, global impact—beyond the area the activities take place. "Man is unwittingly conducting a vast geophysical experiment", the committee wrote.

Nobel Prize winner Glenn T. Seaborg, Chairperson of the United States Atomic Energy Commission warned of the climate crisis in 1966: "At the rate we are currently adding carbon dioxide to our atmosphere (six billion tons a year), within the next few decades the heat balance of the atmosphere could be altered enough to produce marked changes in the climate--changes which we might have no means of controlling even if by that time we have made great advances in our programs of weather modification."
 
What I said was very clear. I don't care any more what you think I said.
It was very clear, and I reposted it so it was even clearer. If you don't want to achnowledge what you said, that's your choice, but it smacks of dishonesty. I showed, in considerable detail, how my description of your comments matched very, very closely what you actually said. Your sulky refusal to explain where I've misunderstood does you no credit at all.
Be that as it may. I will continue to act so as to mitigate, as far as I am able, my impact on global warming, and to encourage others to do the same thing.
 
It was to see Taylor Swift. I didn't do any research on the financial benefits of this but I did see Vancouver ticket prices and the cost of a flight to Europe was less than the ticket cost. Don't know wat tickets went for in Poland.

For years now, the hot topic has been bike lanes and a constant comparison to Europe. We got the bike lanes, complete with the cute little bicycle stop lights and there's still bitching. The latest trend is to post photos/videos of cycling infrastructure in Europe and ask..."Why can't we have THIS?". Problem being, of course is we don't have anywhere near that cycling infrastructure that Europe has. Not even close. Don't get me wrong here, I don't mind having these bike lanes all to myself and I've even give the odd cyclist the side eye while wondering just what the hell they're doing on MY bike lane. I doubt we'll ever get that sort of culture, I've been waiting for it ever since I got caught up in the morning bicycle rush hour in Amsterdam, in 1985.

I'm not a huge fan of making things more expensive as a vehicle to combat AGW and the public has spoken as to their desire to continue on with the modern lifestyle that fossil fuels bring them by...burning fossil fuels. I can't help but laugh at things like the woman in Seattle who's suing oil companies because her mother died in the 2021 heat dome while, ironically, burning fossil fuels.
 
I assume this is Myriad's pathetic answer to my post 1,839:

'Ha, ha! In a couple of centuries, your country will have disappeared!'

As if I hadn't already pointed that out:

I was just pointing out that the issue has some rather serious implications, as a subtle (perhaps too subtle) suggestion that rejecting one approach because you claim it's less effective than another might be a bit foolish when we don't know that even the sum total of all known approaches will be sufficient to prevent long-term disaster. My town's mean elevation is 6 meters.

The elevation of Blatten, Switzerland was over 2,500 meters.

The problem with bad-mouthing "austerity" as useless virtue signaling is that everyone regards any change they make, that inconveniences them or limits their experiences in any way, as austerity. Anything from recycling cans to not riding on a Blue Origin flight is "austerity" to somebody.

Does government-subsidized solar power make imported fresh produce out of season, electronics replaced often due to fashion trends or careless treatment, fast-fashion clothing, travel to worldwide vacation destinations, sprawling lawns, or cruise ships carbon-neutral? They do not and they cannot in the foreseeable future. Does government-subsidized solar power reduce the carbon emissions from food production, construction and construction materials, and transportation so much that the global carbon budget can easily afford imported fresh produce etc. at their current or even higher future levels? No, it does not and cannot in the foreseeable future.

And yet, those and a thousand other benefits and luxuries are all things many people like and would miss, so reducing any of them is someone's austerity.

Climate change doesn't threaten the planet (Earth will be fine), or the biosphere (it's recovered from worse), or the human species (we're more resilient than cockroaches). But the map shows quite a bit is at stake even so.

If you'd be clearer about whatever agenda you think is such a singular and perfect solution to climate change that nothing else is necessary, I might feel differently. But regarding the situation in my own country, you've told me that voting is useless (I agree), conventional activism like protesting is useless (I agree), hoping that things will just change by themselves is useless (I agree), running for office to effect change from within is useless (I agree), voting with my wallet by refusing carbon-wasteful products and services is "austerity" and therefore somehow worse than useless, and acting outside the law is out of the question. But nonetheless I should get off my butt and do that one obvious easily doable necessary thing that will fix everything but you don't wanna tell what it is. Whatever you think you're gaining by that kind of taunting, it's not going to keep the ocean away from any of our respective major cities.

My best theory at the moment is that for some reason you think I have the means to invest amounts of money large enough to influence the course of industry and finance. My second best theory is that you want me to participate in violent revolution and for some reason you think I'd be too shocked or complacent to hear such a thing, as if violent change wasn't already going on here. (Please don't try to claim anything in this paragraph is a straw man. There are no straw men here, just wild guesses, which are there because you won't speak plainly.)
 
I'm not a huge fan of making things more expensive as a vehicle to combat AGW and the public has spoken as to their desire to continue on with the modern lifestyle that fossil fuels bring them by...burning fossil fuels. I can't help but laugh at things like the woman in Seattle who's suing oil companies because her mother died in the 2021 heat dome while, ironically, burning fossil fuels.
The flaw in democracy is that everybody votes for their own personal welfare, not the welfare of everybody. This won't change until people see how it's going to affect them personally - which means global warming has to get worse before it gets better. Fortunately our leaders do have to consider the welfare of everybody (if they are to stay in power). Most take their job seriously, which is why actions are being taken at government level - except in a few places like the US and New Zealand where the people have given their governments a mandate to do nothing.

The good news is that the World's biggest emitter, China, is getting a lid on it as they rapidly switch to renewables. This is rubbing off on other countries too, as China has massively reduced the cost - making renewables cheaper than fossil fuels. Once people see that it's saving them money the transition will accelerate (even in countries like the US and New Zealand), because now it's benefiting them personally.

How could China manage to do it when we couldn't? Because they aren't a democracy.
 
The flaw in democracy is that everybody votes for their own personal welfare, not the welfare of everybody. This won't change until people see how it's going to affect them personally - which means global warming has to get worse before it gets better. Fortunately our leaders do have to consider the welfare of everybody (if they are to stay in power). Most take their job seriously, which is why actions are being taken at government level - except in a few places like the US and New Zealand where the people have given their governments a mandate to do nothing.

The good news is that the World's biggest emitter, China, is getting a lid on it as they rapidly switch to renewables. This is rubbing off on other countries too, as China has massively reduced the cost - making renewables cheaper than fossil fuels. Once people see that it's saving them money the transition will accelerate (even in countries like the US and New Zealand), because now it's benefiting them personally.

How could China manage to do it when we couldn't? Because they aren't a democracy.
That last bit pretty much nails it. Having a single party state allows China to ram through projects like The Three Gorges and the proposed Yarlung Tsangpo projects without having to worry about the party's chances of reelection. Locally, hydroelectric never makes it onto the list of demands for renewables, nor does nuclear and I can only assume that the demanders are willing to live with the limitations of wind and solar.

 
That last bit pretty much nails it. Having a single party state allows China to ram through projects like The Three Gorges and the proposed Yarlung Tsangpo projects without having to worry about the party's chances of reelection. Locally, hydroelectric never makes it onto the list of demands for renewables, nor does
nuclear and I can only assume that the demanders are willing to live with the limitations of wind and solar.

The British government has just announced it will begin building another nuclear plant, Sizewell C. This is on top of the ongoing construction of Hinkley Point, another nuclear power station.
Your claim about hydroelectric power is also inaccurate. The US ranks 4th in the world for its use. Canada and Brazil rank second and third after China.
 
The British government has just announced it will begin building another nuclear plant, Sizewell C. This is on top of the ongoing construction of Hinkley Point, another nuclear power station.
Your claim about hydroelectric power is also inaccurate. The US ranks 4th in the world for its use. Canada and Brazil rank second and third after China.
Well good on the British...after trying to con us with Drax.

Most of the hydroelectric stuff in North America is old. True, Canada has Site C but that wasn't without opposition from, ironically enough, environmentalists. Throw in all this Indigenous land stuff and hydroelectric is way way down on the list of "acceptable" forms of renewal energy.

China moved 1.4 million people to build the Three Gorges dam. That sure wouldn't fly in NA.
 
Well good on the British...after trying to con us with Drax.

Sorry, I don't get the reference.
Most of the hydroelectric stuff in North America is old.

Does this invalidate my point in any way?
True, Canada has Site C but that wasn't without opposition from, ironically enough, environmentalists. Throw in all this Indigenous land stuff and hydroelectric is way way down on the list of "acceptable" forms of renewal energy.

And yet Canada is still 2nd in the world behind China, so I have to wonder again how this invalidates my point.
China moved 1.4 million people to build the Three Gorges dam. That sure wouldn't fly in NA.

No, it wouldn't. Are mega-projects like this the only way to employ hydroelectricity?
 
Drax, the fake renewable energy plant, complete with bonus carbon sequestration scheme.

Yet Canada still burns buckets of fossil fuels, despite the hydroelectric. The answer is, of course, more hydroelectric but, really, it's not all that much in the favour of the people who run around, well, used to run around, bleating about fossil fuels and how we need more wind and solar.

All that run-of-the-river small scale hydroelectric crashed and burned years ago.
 

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