Global warming discussion III

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No, I'm offering the references given in the article (mostly to IPCC reports) as compelling scientific references.

I can click on the references and give you the actual links if you like, but I'm on my tablet at the moment so that would take some time.

My understanding was that the radiative forcing for CO2 was 1.8/doubling thus my ~ 2C quantification. I'll be happy to go back and check my references to see how well that holds up to my earlier statements. As to your reference, specific citations to support specific claims would be much preferred to a wiki summary of various articles some of which may, or may not, provide compelling support for your statements. No hurry, I probably won't be back to the thread before this weekend, and I'll make certain to gather my own references ahead of time, I frequently check posts from my phone and fully understand the limitations of involved postings from such devices
 
I'm now up and have fired up my laptop, so here are the IPCC (TAR4) references:

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch8s8-6-2-3.html

The diagnosis of global radiative feedbacks allows better understanding of the spread of equilibrium climate sensitivity estimates among current GCMs. In the idealised situation that the climate response to a doubling of atmospheric CO2 consisted of a uniform temperature change only, with no feedbacks operating (but allowing for the enhanced radiative cooling resulting from the temperature increase), the global warming from GCMs would be around 1.2°C (Hansen et al., 1984; Bony et al., 2006).
I remembered it as 1.1C, but it's certainly closer to 1 than 2.

From that same page:

Using feedback parameters from Figure 8.14, it can be estimated that in the presence of water vapour, lapse rate and surface albedo feedbacks, but in the absence of cloud feedbacks, current GCMs would predict a climate sensitivity (±1 standard deviation) of roughly 1.9°C ± 0.15°C (ignoring spread from radiative forcing differences). The mean and standard deviation of climate sensitivity estimates derived from current GCMs are larger (3.2°C ± 0.7°C) essentially because the GCMs all predict a positive cloud feedback (Figure 8.14) but strongly disagree on its magnitude.

This Box gives a good summary: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch10s10-5.html#box-10-2

and concludes with the quote given in the wiki article:

Since the TAR, the levels of scientific understanding and confidence in quantitative estimates of equilibrium climate sensitivity have increased substantially. Basing our assessment on a combination of several independent lines of evidence, as summarised in Box 10.2 Figures 1 and 2, including observed climate change and the strength of known feedbacks simulated in GCMs, we conclude that the global mean equilibrium warming for doubling CO2, or ‘equilibrium climate sensitivity’, is likely to lie in the range 2°C to 4.5°C, with a most likely value of about 3°C. Equilibrium climate sensitivity is very likely larger than 1.5°C.

For fundamental physical reasons as well as data limitations, values substantially higher than 4.5°C still cannot be excluded, but agreement with observations and proxy data is generally worse for those high values than for values in the 2°C to 4.5°C range.
 
Sigh. Again with the "Non expert proves global warming is not real" trope. This time, one of the founders of The Weather Channel, which IMO makes him more of a Media-ist than even a meteorologist, much less a climate scientist.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/natur...rming-not-real-claims-weather-channel-founder

Includes the usual canards of "no warming for 18 years" and "polar ice increasing."

He also makes a claim I haven't heard used before- that polar bears are increasing in number, and that is also proof that global warming isn't real. :rolleyes:
 
It'll be a chilly day in Hell when The Express concedes that AGW is real and undesirable. One day they'll just stop mentioning the subject at all. Well, that's how they handled their over-hasty endorsement of Herr Hitler before that unpleasantness. Now let's never speak of it again ...

On polar bears, the trick is to start from the hunting bans in (I think) the 80's, at which time extinction in the wild was imminent. I doubt there's been much increase in, say, the last 18 years.
 
He also makes a claim I haven't heard used before- that polar bears are increasing in number, and that is also proof that global warming isn't real. :rolleyes:
How will global warming affect polar bears?
...
With this caveat in mind, what do the figures actually say? According to a 2009 report by the IUCN Polar Bear Specialist Group, of the 19 recognised subpopulations of polar bears, 8 are in decline, 1 is increasing, 3 are stable and 7 don’t have enough data to draw any conclusions.
So "increasing in number" is wrong but we have to be careful about relating the decreases in numbers to climate change.
On the other hand we know that polar bears rely on Arctic sea ice providing platforms for their hunting. Any reduction in Arctic sea ice reduces their ability to hunt and thus their numbers. And
Satellite data show that Arctic sea ice has been decreasing for the past 30 years, and projections show that this trend will continue as temperatures carry on rising.
 
They are adaptible....Let them eat kids ;)

Polar bears drive Halloween inside for Canadian kids
USA TODAY ‎- 19 hours ago
Trick or treating will be held indoors this year due to concern over polar bears.

...

This is the first time the community of Arviat has had to cancel Halloween, but bears have been a mounting concern during annual fall migration and as shore ice depletion at the Hudson Bay pushes the bears closer to the town.

hmm or was that cake.????..never can sort that....:D

••

I doubt there's been much increase in, say, the last 18 years.
;) cute.
 
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I'm now up and have fired up my laptop, so here are the IPCC (TAR4) references:

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch8s8-6-2-3.html

I remembered it as 1.1C, but it's certainly closer to 1 than 2.

From that same page:


This Box gives a good summary: http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch10s10-5.html#box-10-2

and concludes with the quote given in the wiki article:

Thank-you very much,

I'm not sure why you are using the 4rth IPCC report (2007), to support your statement that the current mainstream science consideration is toward a lowered climate sensitivity to CO2, especially as even the 5th edition (2013) doesn't represent "current" mainstream climate sensitivity (papers for consideration in report had to be submitted no later the July 31, 2012).

Again, my request for support was primarily regarding the closing remark which you made regarding "...most recent estimates seem to be converging around the 3°C figure."

With regard to the direct/isolate CO2 warming, the figures I am most familiar with range from 1 - 1.6o C, my use of "~2o C" should probably have been a touch more conservative and specific with a direct figure and an included confidence range/set of error values. My apologies; in a more formal venue I would have definitely been more inclined to follow that procedure.

As to my statements about overall near-term and longer-term climate sensitivities, these considerations have been influenced by many recent (last 1-2 years) papers suggesting that sensitivity is greater than most earlier estimates and is quite possibly increasing as the climate warms. Of course, these latest considerations are more in line with earlier considerations of many of the paleoclimate researchers of the last several decades who generally assess much higher general climate sensitivities.

I'd be happy to go through my reading list and provide some references if there are any who are interested.
 
I'm not sure why you are using the 4rth IPCC report (2007)
Because that was the source used by the wiki article I pointed you to, and the one with which I am most familiar.

to support your statement that the current mainstream science consideration is toward a lowered climate sensitivity to CO2
Not sure where you're getting "lowered" from. The range given by the IPCC for as long as I've been following the subject (about 15 years) has been 1.5C - 4.5C, with some estimates at both extremes but with a gradual convergence on the middle of that range.

As to my statements about overall near-term and longer-term climate sensitivities, these considerations have been influenced by many recent (last 1-2 years) papers suggesting that sensitivity is greater than most earlier estimates and is quite possibly increasing as the climate warms.
I'm aware of a couple of recent papers giving estimates nearer 4C than 3C but nothing suggesting the range you quoted ...

Add in all the other contributing cast members (albedo changes, sea-level rise, soil outgassing, etc.,) and you end up with the short-term (50-100year) impact of CO2 doubling resulting in a 4-6o C temperature increase (and most likely at least another couple of degrees over the longer term (500 - 5000 years) as slower feedback systems equilibrate)

... so I'd be interested in seeing the source for that.
 
Not sure where you're getting "lowered" from. The range given by the IPCC for as long as I've been following the subject (about 15 years) has been 1.5C - 4.5C, with some estimates at both extremes but with a gradual convergence on the middle of that range.

The growing consensus, from much of the current material I've been looking at, is that 3.0C is the lower limit with most indicators pointing toward the higher ranges being better fits for the available data than the middle or lower end of this range.


I'm aware of a couple of recent papers giving estimates nearer 4C than 3C but nothing suggesting the range you quoted ...

... so I'd be interested in seeing the source for that.

Really? even the SRES report that was used in large part to help form, and were repeated in, the IPCC AR4 forecast estimates, gave a warming range for 2100 of 1.6–6.9°C above preindustrial (one of the A1 senarios - A1F1 I believe). These aren't a part of my current reading list, but here is a copy of a Metoffice report that repeats essentially the same information back in 2009.

"When could global warming reach 4°C?" - http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/m/q/HCTN_80.pdf

"The IPCC Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) assessed a range of scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions without policies to specifically reduce emissions, and concluded that these would lead to an increase in global mean temperatures of between 1.4°C and 6.9°C by the end of the 21st Century, relative to pre-industrial. While much political attention is focussed on the potential for global warming of 2°C relative to preindustrial, the AR4 projections clearly suggest that much greater levels of warming are possible by the end of the 21st Century in the absence of mitigation. The centre of the
range of AR4 projected global warming was approximately 4°C...Using these GCM projections along with simple climate model projections including uncertainties in carbon cycle feedbacks, and also comparing against other model projections from IPCC, our best estimate is that the A1FI emissions
scenario would lead to a warming of 4°C relative to pre-industrial during the 2070s. If carbon cycle feedbacks are stronger, which appears less likely but still credible, then 4°C warming could be reached by 2060..."

Here are a few of the more recent papers that I have been reading that lend support for increasing sensitivity assessments.

“High Climate Sensitivity Suggested by Multi-satellite Observations: the Role of Circulation and Cloud Feedback”
- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013AGUFM.A43K..03S

“It has long been recognized that cloud feedback is a leading contributor to the spread of models' climate sensitivity. Here we show that simulated cloud feedbacks are strongly correlated with the changes of the Hadley Circulation. We further show the present-day simulations of circulation and clouds have imprints that foreshadow the strength of circulation and cloud feedback under global warming. Compared with multi-satellite observations and reanalysis data, the high sensitivity models perform better than the low sensitivity models. Using observational metrics that emphasize the coherent spatial variabilities of clouds and relative humidity in association with the Hadley Circulation, we find the best estimates of equilibrium climate sensitivity likely range from 3.6 to 4.7 K, with a mean of 4.1 K and a standard deviation of 0.4 K.”


“Weakening and strengthening structures in the Hadley Circulation change under global warming and implications for cloud response and climate sensitivity”
- http://yly-mac.gps.caltech.edu/reprintsyly/A_RecentPapers/Su_etal_ECS_JGR2014.pdf

“…Lastly, the new model performance metrics that emphasize the entire spatial variations of cloud fraction and relative humidity associated with the Hadley Circulation show that the models that perform better by these measures tend to have higher ECS. These models also produce stronger Hadley Circulation in general. Consistent with this, composites over the high-sensitivity models perform substantially better by these measures than those over the low-sensitivity models. Although better performance in current climate is not necessarily an indicator of a better projection of future climate, these new metrics are for climate variables closely associated with circulation and energy budget changes under global warming. Any reasonable weighting of the multimodel ensemble by these metrics would yield an estimate of ECS higher than the multimodel mean.”

“Super Interglacials and persistent warmth paced Arctic Climate Evolution over the Past 3.6 Myr: Lake El'gygytgyn, Western Beringia, a new polar lens focused on high latitude environmental change”
- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013EGUGA..1511829B

“…In 2009, International Continental Deep drilling at Lake El'gygytgyn (67o30' N, 172 o 05' E) recovered lacustrine sediments dating back to 3.58 Ma that now provide the first time-continuous Pliocene-Pleistocene Arctic paleoclimate record of alternating glacial-interglacial change. The warmest/wettest Pliocene interval of the lake record occurs from ~3.58-3.34 Ma and is dominated by exceptional tree pollen implying July temperatures nearly 7-8o C warmer than today with nearly ~3 times the annual precipitation. Atmospheric CO2 levels are estimated to have been 360 to 400 ppm implying exceptionally high climate sensitivity and polar amplification. In fact, pollen spectra and modern analog analysis show an unbroken persistence of summers much warmer and wetter than the last interglacial, MIS 5e until nearly 2.2 Ma. Extreme warmth in the Mid Pliocene Arctic occurs at the same time ANDRILL results suggest the West Antarctic Ice Sheet was non-existent. Modeling sensitivity experiments using 300 and 400 ppm CO2 are consistent with sustained forests at Lake El'gygytgyn during this interval and restricted glacial ice over Greenland in both cold and warm boreal summer orbits especially for the PRISM interval…”


“Spread in model climate sensitivity traced to atmospheric convective mixing”
- http://www.lmd.jussieu.fr/~jldufres/publi/2014/Sherwood.Bony.ea-nature-2014-smi.pdf

“Climate sensitivity refers to the change in global mean temperature in response to a change in external forcing, usually a doubling of CO2. Despite decades of research attempting to narrow uncertainties, equilibrium climate sensitivity estimates from climate models still span roughly 2 to 5◦C, precluding accurate projections of future climate. The spread arises largely from differences in the feedback from low clouds, for reasons not yet understood. Here we show that differences in the simulated strength of convective mixing between the lower and middle tropical troposphere explain about half of the variance in climate sensitivity estimated by 43 climate models. The apparent mechanism is that such mixing dehydrates the low-cloud layer at a rate that increases as climate warms, and this rate of increase depends on the initial mixing strength, linking the mixing to cloud feedback. Mixing inferred from observations appears sufficiently strong to imply a climate sensitivity greater than 3◦C for a carbon dioxide doubling. This is significantly higher than the currently accepted lower bound of 1.5◦C, thereby constraining model projections toward relatively severe future warming.”

“Quantifying greenhouse warming, aerosol cooling and the transient climate sensitivity - A novel approach”
- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013AGUFM.A21B0025S

“We present an interdisciplinary study combining climate observations and modeling with econometric methodology to identify the relative contributions to recent climate change from greenhouse warming and aerosol cooling. The cooling effect of aerosols has likely masked some of the warming due to increasing GHG concentrations to date. Several publications have recently pointed out the intimate relationship between the aerosol cooling effect and climate sensitivity. Generally, a GCM that has a large aerosol cooling effect will typically have a high climate sensitivity, and vice versa. Given this connection between the aerosol effect and the GCMs climate sensitivity, it is problematic that the aerosol effect is still very poorly constrained, even after decades of dedicated research on aerosol effects on climate. It is time to seek out other complimentary and parallel approaches to the traditional ones, and this is at the heart of the presented study. We apply econometric methods to determine the parameters of an energy balance model, using observed time series of surface air temperature, radiation and CO2 concentrations. This framework allows us to decompose of the observed temperature trend into a GHG component and an aerosol component for the time period 1960 to 2000. We find that aerosols have likely masked about 50% of the warming due to increasing GHG concentrations during this time period. This is compared to a much weaker aerosol masking simulated by the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) Community Earth System Model (CESM). The framework also allows for an estimate of the transient climate sensitivity, with the caveat that the estimate is only valid for the parts of the globe which have sufficient data coverage to be included in our analysis. This is the case for most land areas, for which our framework yields a transient climate sensitivity of 6.1K, with a 95% confidence interval of [3.6, 8.7]K.”


“New constraints on atmospheric CO2 concentration for the Phanerozoic”
- http://droyer.web.wesleyan.edu/Franks_et_al_2014_GRL_new_stomatal-CO2_proxy.pdf

“…These results provide critical new empirical support for the emerging view that large (~2000–3000 ppm), long-term swings in ca do not characterize the post-Devonian and that Earth’s long-term climate sensitivity to ca is greater than originally thought.”


“Climate sensitivity, sea level and atmospheric carbon dioxide”
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3785813/

“…Cenozoic temperature, sea level and CO2 covariations provide insights into climate sensitivity to external forcings and sea-level sensitivity to climate change. Climate sensitivity depends on the initial climate state, but potentially can be accurately inferred from precise palaeoclimate data. Pleistocene climate oscillations yield a fast-feedback climate sensitivity of 3 ± 1◦C for a 4Wm−2 CO2 forcing if Holocene warming relative to the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) is used as calibration, but the error (uncertainty) is substantial and partly subjective because of poorly defined LGM global temperature and possible human influences in the Holocene. Glacial-to-interglacial climate change leading to the prior (Eemian) interglacial is less ambiguous and implies a sensitivity in the upper part of the above range, i.e. 3–4◦C for a 4Wm−2 CO2 forcing. Slow feedbacks, especially change of ice sheet size and atmospheric CO2, amplify the total Earth system sensitivity by an amount that depends on the time scale considered…”


“High Arctic forests during the middle Eocene supported by moderate levels of atmospheric CO2”
-http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/early/2014/10/14/G36014.1.abstract

“An abundance of data from Napartulik suggests mean annual temperatures at least 30 °C warmer than today and atmospheric water loads 2× current levels...Individual reconstructions vary between 392 ppm and 474 ppm, with a site median of 424 ppm (351–523 ppm at 95% confidence). These estimates represent the first direct constraints on CO2 for a High Arctic forest and suggest that the temperate conditions present at Napartulik during the middle Eocene were maintained under CO2 concentrations ∼1.5× pre-industrial levels. Our results support the case that long-term climate sensitivity to CO2 in the past was sometimes high, even during largely ice-free periods, highlighting the need to better understand the climate forcings and feedbacks responsible for this amplification.”

These are just a handful of the papers on the top page of my reading list that relate to the focus shift to the upper part of the Ca climate sensitivity range. I'd be happy to provide a more extensive listing for any who are interested.
 
I'm currently enjoying a few days of weather anomaly riding in West Virginia, likely due to an incipient El Nino but regardless of source- high teens to mid 20s this time of year is a very welcome anomaly.
 
Thank you for those links, Trakar, some of which make very depressing reading, but I have no way of knowing how representative they are of the recent scientific literature. This is why I always turn to the overview of the IPCC reports.

This is from the summary for policymakers of the Physical Science Basis section of the 2013 report:

The equilibrium climate sensitivity quantifies the response of the climate system to constant radiative forcing on multicentury time scales. It is defined as the change in global mean surface temperature at equilibrium that is caused by a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration. Equilibrium climate sensitivity is likely in the range 1.5°C to 4.5°C (high confidence), extremely unlikely less than 1°C (high confidence), and very unlikely greater than 6°C (medium confidence)16. The lower temperature limit of the assessed likely range is thus less than the 2°C in the AR4, but the upper limit is the
same. This assessment reflects improved understanding, the extended temperature record in the atmosphere and ocean, and new estimates of radiative forcing. {TS TFE.6, Figure 1; Box 12.2}

So they've extended the lower end of the likely range whilst keeping the upper end the same, which doesn't suggest to me that estimates have been generally increasing since the 2007 report. So I'll continue to take 'around 3C' as the most likely value for climate sensitivity, always remembering that the error bars around that figure are large.
 
The other elephant in the room

The UK's chief scientist says the oceans face a serious and growing risk from man-made carbon emissions.

The oceans absorb about a third of the CO2 that’s being produced by industrial society, and this is changing the chemistry of seawater.

Sir Mark Walport warns that the acidity of the oceans has increased by about 25% since the industrial revolution, mainly thanks to manmade emissions.

CO2 reacts with the sea water to form carbonic acid.

He told BBC News: “If we carry on emitting CO2 at the same rate, ocean acidification will create substantial risks to complex marine food webs and ecosystems.”
He said the current rate of acidification is believed to be unprecedented within the last 65 million years – and may threaten fisheries in future.
more

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29746880
 
Thank you for those links, Trakar, some of which make very depressing reading, but I have no way of knowing how representative they are of the recent scientific literature. This is why I always turn to the overview of the IPCC reports.

This is from the summary for policymakers of the Physical Science Basis section of the 2013 report:



So they've extended the lower end of the likely range whilst keeping the upper end the same, which doesn't suggest to me that estimates have been generally increasing since the 2007 report. So I'll continue to take 'around 3C' as the most likely value for climate sensitivity, always remembering that the error bars around that figure are large.

Based upon the papers available by the summer of 2012, this lower end revision was much derided within both the popular science media by several of the leading climate science researchers as well as the mainstream climate science journals when it was released. Many of the papers out since early 2013 have made a very strong and persuasive case for making 3.0oC the min. for the short-term climate sensitivity to a doubling of Catm as well as spreading the max end of the very likely range back up to 5-6oC. I believe that was mentioned in several of those papers, but I will check for a more specific reference for this.
 
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The ocean tends to be a much more homogenous environment than the atmosphere. Even (with what our typical experience would say is) a relatively minor change of water temperature, alkalinity, or even mean depth (mainly a light penetration issue) can make a huge difference to existing populations and ranges. Brackish water forcing its way back up grade into coastal range fresh-water aquifers, this goes beyond impacting merely sea-life (not that anything which has a negative impact on a major human food source should be considered "merely").
 
So they've extended the lower end of the likely range whilst keeping the upper end the same, which doesn't suggest to me that estimates have been generally increasing since the 2007 report. So I'll continue to take 'around 3C' as the most likely value for climate sensitivity, always remembering that the error bars around that figure are large.
As Trakar says, the lower end change wasn't given much credence; it mostly relies on the mythical Pause and line-fitting exercises. It had to be included for tactical reasons (the climate denial community would have had a field-day if it wasn't).

Much like you I still think around 2.5-3C.
 
I do as well but aerosols remain an offsetting factor...heaven forbid if China REALLY cleans up SO2 :eye-poppi

Meanwhile big buck consequences ...sea level rise ...subsiding land = expensive future for Boston....

26 October 2014 Last updated at 20:13 ET

How Boston is rethinking its relationship with the sea
By Joanna Jolly
BBC News, Boston

Sea levels are rising, the land is sinking. It's going to become a big problem for some cities on the US East Coast, so in Boston people are thinking the unthinkable - copying Venice and Amsterdam, and becoming a city of canals.

Two years ago, when the still vicious tail-end of Hurricane Sandy slammed into Boston, it was luck rather than planning that saved the city's streets from deep floods.

If it had hit four hours earlier, during the full-moon high tide, it is likely a storm surge would have inundated the city, submerging its low-lying areas under several feet of water.
more

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29761274

BTW it casually notes a 6' prediction for end of century.....:eye-poppi
anyone know a source for this???
I know east coast US is expected to get hit harder and earlier but have not seen a 2m prediction ....:confused:
 
As Trakar says, the lower end change wasn't given much credence; it mostly relies on the mythical Pause and line-fitting exercises. It had to be included for tactical reasons (the climate denial community would have had a field-day if it wasn't).

Much like you I still think around 2.5-3C.

The primary problem I have with </= 3°C sensitivity is that it is extremely out of whack with most (if not all) of the geologic evidence. Certainly there are many acknowledged differences between the geologic periods of interest and the present, but it is difficult for me understand what processes would account for the degree of differences that would result in this much difference.
 
I do as well but aerosols remain an offsetting factor...heaven forbid if China REALLY cleans up SO2 :eye-poppi

Meanwhile big buck consequences ...sea level rise ...subsiding land = expensive future for Boston....


more

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29761274

BTW it casually notes a 6' prediction for end of century.....:eye-poppi
anyone know a source for this???
I know east coast US is expected to get hit harder and earlier but have not seen a 2m prediction ....:confused:

A lot depends upon BAU. Several sources are putting CO2 levels at between 700-1000ppm by 2100,...if any of those estimates reflect reality, a 6°C increase would be a low end estimate. I believe both Hadley and the Met office had several estimates in that general range in the 2008-2010 timeframe. If I get the chance, I'll look and see what I can find.
 
A lot depends upon BAU. Several sources are putting CO2 levels at between 700-1000ppm by 2100,...if any of those estimates reflect reality, a 6°C increase would be a low end estimate. I believe both Hadley and the Met office had several estimates in that general range in the 2008-2010 timeframe. If I get the chance, I'll look and see what I can find.

What do they estimate for atmospheric methane levels?

It appears to have increased from 1600 to over 1800 ppb in the last 20 years.
 
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