Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

[Megalodon]

I disagree. It looks like the warming has stopped.

Well, that settles the debate... everyone pack everything, warming has stopped, Jules Galen says that it looks like it, after putting absolutely zero work in countering my analysis.

Talk is cheap... show your work, because by now you have this:

 

[ideogram]

You have to define what you mean for the question to have any real meaning.

I suggest that

"Some regions are experiencing colder winters. Overall the Northern Hemisphere is not getting colder."

is more clearly defined than

"there is this colder winter trend happening"

 

[ideogram]

That's why you should just check for yourself.

You are right, people should check for themselves. Because your links don't support your claims.

 

[Belz...]

In regards to this model nonsense, one more try..

Once you're done playing with strawmen, could you address my post ?

 

[r-j]

There is nothing but your words and claims, with no evidence. Nothing to respond to.

...
No, that is your opinion.

The links and sources I always use are not my opinion. If you post with no evidence, don't be surprised nobody responds.

 

[r-j]

You are right, people should check for themselves. Because your links don't support your claims.

That's the beauty of science. If it's actually science, you don't have to believe, you can see for yourself. You don't need somebody trying desperatly to convince you of something, just look at the science, unless it's some sort of fraud, a scam, the science should make things clear.

Not confusing.

 

[Belz...]

There is nothing but your words and claims, with no evidence. Nothing to respond to.

Now THAT is a lie. What does that make you, again ?

 

[ideogram]

That's the beauty of science. If it's actually science, you don't have to believe, you can see for yourself. You don't need somebody trying desperatly to convince you of something, just look at the science, unless it's some sort of fraud, a scam, the science should make things clear.

Not confusing.

I'm glad you agree, people should always read the links. The rest of your posts are not necessary.

 

[r-j]

Let me see if I understand this correctly: you think that it snows more when it's colder ?

You could be asking the opposite.

"Do you think it snows more when it's warmer?"



Try to be specific and clear, if you want to be viewed seriously. Something as basic as snow and temperature is easily Googled.

 

[Belz...]

You could be asking the opposite.

"Do you think it snows more when it's warmer?"



Try to be specific and clear, if you want to be viewed seriously. Something as basic as snow and temperature is easily Googled.

You're the one who is embarassing himself.

No matter how cold it is, it won't snow unless other conditions are present. You claimed that colder weather correlated with more snow. That simply isn't true, though of course it can't snow at all if it's too hot, but your continued inability to grasp this difference and understand that this is what people are telling you seems to indicate that you are simply not able to follow a conversation, period.

 

[r-j]

. You claimed that colder weather correlated with more snow.

No, you made that up. Try quoting what I actually posted, then you will understand. Making things up, and then arguing against them, that is not my thing.

Here is what I said.

The facts are that the NH boreal winters, in very large areas, have been getting colder, with much more snow and ice.

As for the "more snow", something else I explained was happening, the Rutgers lab shows this clearly.

It was macdoc that made some ridiculous claim.

Additional snow cover is not related to cold weather - more snow is an artifact of more moisture in the atmosphere.

Once more, we see incredible woo woo claims being made. That one is quite simply so over the top woo, it can't be possible. It is not possible somebody is actually claiming that.

So get your facts right.

I said less than...

Yes, but you never answered the question.

 

[a_unique_person]

You're the one who is embarassing himself.

No matter how cold it is, it won't snow unless other conditions are present. You claimed that colder weather correlated with more snow. That simply isn't true, though of course it can't snow at all if it's too hot, but your continued inability to grasp this difference and understand that this is what people are telling you seems to indicate that you are simply not able to follow a conversation, period.

you also can't get snow if it's to cold.

 

[lomiller]

I disagree. It looks like the warming has stopped.

Then why can't you explain what it is about the graph that makes you think it's stopped because I can't see any way a reasonable person could interpret ti that way.

 

[lomiller]

You could be asking the opposite.

"Do you think it snows more when it's warmer?"



Try to be specific and clear, if you want to be viewed seriously. Something as basic as snow and temperature is easily Googled.

I explained the basics to you. Snow requires a warm moist air mass. Major snowfalls only when temperatures are relatively close to freezing which is warmer than normal temperatures for the majority of North America sustaining winter long snow-cover.

Your personal incredulity at this result isn't an argument. In cold climes it snows when it's warm and almost exclusively when there are warm temperatures.

 

[lomiller]

you also can't get snow if it's to cold.

Correct.

 

[CapelDodger]

you also can't get snow if it's to cold.

Lest anyone think that's been made up recently to explain the current Ice Age we've been plunged into, I remember my father saying "It's too cold for snow" when I was a kid. Which is a far from recent memory.

In the UK, cold weather means either high pressure and thus cold, dry air descending and clear skies, or easterly winds off the Continent all the way from Moscow.

This year the weather's all been off the ocean, with quite a lot coming up from the Bay of Biscay to whack into the South Coast, so it's been warm and bloody wet. Ridiculously wet. Outrageously wet (and indeed outrage has been widespread).

I remember when deniers were eager to say that warmer climate means more snow, hence Greenland won't shrink. That line has apparently been dropped in favour of "more snow proves the climate isn't warming". Or again, perhaps both are still aceptable in their own compartments.

 

[lionking]

I disagree. It looks like the warming has stopped.

Is that right?

Well I'm convinced now.

 

[macdoc]

sooooo r-j ...I see you have not taken lake effect snow on board in your "how the world works" database.

Let's have a simple quiz.

30 kph wind blowing across flat prairie at -30 degrees C atmospheric temperature

30 kph wind blowing across flat open water at -3 degrees C atmospheric temperature

Which will produce more snow?

 

[Trakar]

As for the "more snow", something else I explained was happening, the Rutgers lab shows this clearly.

Winter starts at the end of December and lasts until the end March

According to your reference there is an trended increase in NH snow cover in December, January and February and generally declining trends March through September. What isn't apparent, is what significance you attach to this? We can demonstrate that it isn't relating cooler temperatures over the NH in the same periods neither monthly, seasonally, nor annually.
Snow cover increases ≠ colder temperature trends what it does indicate is more moisture in the atmosphere making it available to condense out as snow (instead of rain) when the temperature is appropriate to produce snow.

As a side note, some seem to be repeating the rather common trope regarding it being "too cold to snow," in actuality this is not true. What tends to prevent snow in extremely cold environments is the fact that extremely cold air simply cannot hold much moisture and will release that moisture long before it gets extremely cold.¹
Most snow comes from storm systems that erupt when very cold, dry, dense air masses roll over the top of a warm, moist and low density masses hugging the surface. As the lighter, moisture-rich air mass bubbles up through the overlaying frigid air the mixing generates the storms that release rain/snow. This is easy to visualize in summer/spring storms, but it should be understood that a large mass of air in the mid-thirties(F) is a "warm, moisture-rich air mass" compared to the sub-zero air masses rolling down from more northerly regimes.

If you are really interested in increasing snow cover in some Boreal regions in the colder months of the season, the question that should immediately spring to mind is: "why do we have increasingly more warm, moisture-rich air masses hugging the surface in these high northern regions at these times of the year?"

IIRC, these explanations and discussions are the same that have occurred each winter for the last few years.

1. Snow falls do occasionally occur in Antarctica, where average suface temps often hover around 70 below zero. The snows rarely amount to tenths of an inch, as the amount of moisture that can be held in such "warm air masses" is very small.

 

[Belz...]

So get your facts right.

I did. Here it is again:

Additional snow cover is not related to cold weather - more snow is an artifact of more moisture in the atmosphere.

Once more, we see incredible woo woo claims being made.

You DID counter his claim that temperature doesn't correlate to the amount of snow, effectively claiming that it did.

Do you deny this ?