Merged Global Warming Discussion II: Heated Conversation

[lomiller]

"What a great week for the alarmists. Expedition to demonstrate the impact of global warming on Antarctica stuck in unprecedented ice, while a near record breaking cold wave hits North America. Mother nature is refusing to cooperate. What will the shaman and charlatans do to convince the people that the globe is really warming because of their prosperous life-style."

Meanwhile, back in the real world we just had the warmest November on record.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

 

[lomiller]

That it gets cold in Antarctica?

And the Ice!!! Oh the Ice! Can you imagine how cold the world needs to get for there to be ice in Antarctica!

 

[macdoc]

while a near record breaking cold wave hits North America.

actually it has broken several records and is an expected consequence of weather extremes cause in part by changes in the Arctic weather patterns which have moved the cold high pressure further south.
When there is no sun and a stalled high....guess what ....it gets cold.
But don't let science get in the way of your day dream.

 

[Checkmite]

.
.
Glaciologists are now saying the Global Warming Science boat may be trapped for years in non existent ice.

Gee, I wonder how that completely non-ice-breaking research boat was able to get all the way in there through all that thick solid ice.

Oh wait, it was because it wasn't there a couple of days ago, and what they're actually trapped in right now isn't a solid ice sheet that's always been there and isn't melting, but rather a stew of loose-floating sea ice which a powerful storm system has blown toward and compacted around them; a situation which doesn't speak for or against climate change any more than a blizzard on any given winter day does.

Try again.

 

[macdoc]

Don't encourage him...we've had quite enough nonsense from him for a science thread.

 

[Arnold Martin]

and??
there have been hundreds of trapped vessels....what idiotic conclusion are you trying to draw from it?? That it gets cold in Antarctica?

Yes sir ... I have drawn the idiotic conclusion that it gets cold in Antarctica

It has replaced my former idiotic conclusion that everything would be warm in Antarctica by now.

You must remember I have been following the Settled Science for many years

So I ask you sir ... what conclusion should I now make for future Antarctica ?? I do not wish to make an idiotic third conclusion because , quite frankly it is becoming embarrassing.

My daughter sold her Toronto home and moved to Aurora partly because the IPCC said the Great Lakes would be 50% higher than what is predicted globally. She now has to spend 2 hours a day commuting to work in her CO2 Car . She keeps wondering if she also made an idiotic conclusion by listening to settled scientists.

 

[uke2se]

You must remember I have been following the Settled Science for many years.

I rather doubt that as you seem completely unfamilliar with it. Would you care to quote a climate scientist saying Antarctica woul be warm by the winter of 2013?

 

[Arnold Martin]

Don't encourage him...we've had quite enough nonsense from him for a science thread.

.


I am unsure why you feel your science is better than my science.

The ramifications of Physical Science predictions affect me daily in the Social Science area

I live and work on this planet too , so please dont discriminate against me.

.

 

[macdoc]

Suck it up - 2013 7th warmest since records begain in 1850

5th warmest without an El Nino

Toasty November Vaults 2013 Into Top 5 Warmest Years | Climate ...

www.climatecentral.org/.../toasty-november-vaults-2013-into-to...‎
by Andrew Freedman - in 1,154 Google+ circles
Dec 17, 2013 - That puts 2013 on track to be the warmest year on record without an El Niño event, depending on where December temperatures rank. El Niño ...

Last month was the warmest November since record-keeping began 134 years ago, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) reported Tuesday. The latest data, combined with more recently reported by NASA, showed a record global average surface temperature for November, particularly in Eurasia, where Russia experienced its warmest November in history.

According to NOAA, the global average surface temperature for November was 1.4°F above the long-term average for the month, and much of Russia, northwest Kazakhstan, south India, southern Madagascar, parts of the central and south Indian Ocean, and areas of the Pacific Ocean were record warm. That surpassed the previous record-holder of November 2004 by 0.05°F, and is the 6th-highest monthly departure from average of any month on record, according to NOAA.

Russia had its warmest November since records began there in 1891, with some parts of the country, including Siberia and the Arctic islands in the Kara Sea, seeing temperatures that were more than 14°F above the typical monthly average.

We'll see the final tally in a few days but not much will change for the year...

Welcome to 2014 of the Holocene.....

 

[Arnold Martin]

My thoughts specific to Antarctica Ice core research

In my post # 1487 I said ... I have always felt that ice core samples are extremely hard to date accurately

In post # 1489 uke2se said .... Your feelings are getting less and less relevant with each post you make, and their relevance started close to, if not at, zero.

In post # 1492 lomiller said ... What you feel isn’t really all that important. The evidence in the scientific literature says ice cores can be dated accurately.


Rather than fill posts with personal insults I prefer to stick with the Antarctica science I learned 20 years ago as a Meteorite hunter and collector.

Meteorites are rare and hard to find .... the very best place to search is in the Antarctic Ice fields .... more Meteorites have been recovered there than anywhere else on the planet.

The science behind it is the fact that the Antarctic ice fields are constantly moving (Glaciation) constantly being formed , and constantly calving off into the seas .... it is an endless cycle which ends up gathering the meteorites along the edges of mountain ridges where researchers can easily gather them .


So how can Global warmists claim the ice core samples have been there permanently for 800,000 years
And please stop blaming me when settled science conflicts with settled science. I am not your enemy ... I live and work on this planet too.

Regards
A.M.

 

[macdoc]

Highlights of 2013 in moving to carbon neutral

Fossil fuel divestment goes global

As groups, such as the Carbon Tracker initiative, work to shine light on the dangers of continued investment in fossil fuels, 2013 saw some of the world’s largest public financial institutions move to halt coal investment. The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund announced new policies limiting what fossil fuel projects can be funded. The European Investment Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and the US Ex-Im followed suit.

A host of private sector firms are also moving their investment away from dirty energy, while governments, including in the US, the UK, China and the Nordic countries, are re-assessing the support they will provide coal in the future.

These announcements have run in parallel with a burgeoning divestment movement that started strong in the US and has now moved across Australia and Europe. The movement calls on educational and religious institutions, along with city and state governments to lead the way in divestment and has already seen successes including Providence City Council, San Francisco State University, the United Church of Christ and the Quakers of Britain.

“Not only is fossil fuels a rogue industry, it’s also a bad bet,” said Bill McKibben, founder of 350.org, the organisation leading the divestment campaign. “Those carbon numbers make it clear that the industry sits on a ‘Carbon Bubble’, with €13 trillion worth of fuel it can’t sell if the planet takes even minimal action against climate change.”

- See more at: http://tcktcktck.org/2013/12/year-climate-movement-2013-highlights/59541#sthash.1JJ04Ukb.dpuf

“Mother of all risks”: Business wake up to climate threat

In the wake of the IPCC’s latest report, businesses around the world appear to be waking up to the threats of climate change and the opportunities of tackling it. Business leaders PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) urged governments to do much more to tackle the problem, describing it as the “mother of all risks”, while nearly 700 companies signed onto the ‘Climate Declaration’ saying tackling climate change offers “one of America’s greatest economic opportunities.”
Investors are waking up to the problem too. While the majority have a long way to go in understanding climate risk, one survey of asset owners and managers, responsible for $14 trillion, showed that climate risk analysis is an increasing factor in investment decisions, while investors worth $87 trillion – that’s one third of the World’s invested capital – have called on public companies to report their greenhouse gas emissions and climate change plans.
Even some of the world’s direst companies have begun pricing carbon into their own long-term planning process, according to a recent report from CDP. That includes the likes of ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillipes, Chevron, BP, Shell and Delta Air Lines.

- See more at: http://tcktcktck.org/2013/12/year-climate-movement-2013-highlights/59541#sthash.1JJ04Ukb.dpuf

remember when it was okay to smoke on a plane?? Getting there with carbon emissons...just not done..

 

[uke2se]

My thoughts specific to Antarctica Ice core research

In my post # 1487 I said ... I have always felt that ice core samples are extremely hard to date accurately

In post # 1489 uke2se said .... Your feelings are getting less and less relevant with each post you make, and their relevance started close to, if not at, zero.

In post # 1492 lomiller said ... What you feel isn’t really all that important. The evidence in the scientific literature says ice cores can be dated accurately.


Rather than fill posts with personal insults I prefer to stick with the Antarctica science I learned 20 years ago as a Meteorite hunter and collector.

Meteorites are rare and hard to find .... the very best place to search is in the Antarctic Ice fields .... more Meteorites have been recovered there than anywhere else on the planet.

The science behind it is the fact that the Antarctic ice fields are constantly moving (Glaciation) constantly being formed , and constantly calving off into the seas .... it is an endless cycle which ends up gathering the meteorites along the edges of mountain ridges where researchers can easily gather them .


So how can Global warmists claim the ice core samples have been there permanently for 800,000 years
And please stop blaming me when settled science conflicts with settled science. I am not your enemy ... I live and work on this planet too.

Regards
A.M.

Settled science is not conflicting with settled science, but rather with your pre-conceived ideas about what science is. Hint: science isn't the one in the wrong.

About moving ice, how do you expect ice moving makes it impossible to date ice cores?

Or are you imagining the ice having moved from someplace else entirely?

 

[macdoc]

I guess he doesn't understand glacier fields much.

. Blue Ice in Antarctica

Antarctica is the best place in the world to find meteorites, and the search for Antarctic meteorites begins with the search for blue ice. This is an excellent meteorite hunting ground, not because more meteorites fall in Antarctica, but because meteorites are preserved and easy to find. Meteorites fall all over the world. Those that fall into the oceans are lost. Those that fall on land can be hard to see, one dark rock among other rocks or under leaves in a forest, and are lost quickly too, buried in soil and weathered.

But in Antarctica, meteorites are easy to see — dark rocks on ice — and the harsh climate acts like a freezer to preserve meteorites, some for millions of years.
A fallen meteorite in Antarctica is quickly covered by snow and buried in one of the great Antarctic glaciers. The glaciers slowly move toward the ocean, and their ice turns blue because all its air bubbles are squeezed out. Where the flow of the glaciers is impeded, for example, by the Antarctic Mountains shown in the slide, the blue ice may be thrust to the surface. Or the ice may just stop moving (become stagnant). Either way, the white surface ice evaporates in the dry winds of Antarctica, exposing blue ice and its meteorites.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/slidesets/marslife/slide_14.html

Not all glaciers are moving rapidly and there are kilometers deep valleys where only the edges of glacier field sees any movement at as pressure builds from additional snow layers.

Antarctica is the last refuge of the denier as it's not all that impacted by the global weather patterns beyond the circling winds and very significantly the warming ocean which might have some unpleasant surprises in store.

Climatologist measuring changes are most interested in rapidly moving glaciers like Pine Island.

Pine Island Glacier: Before and after massive iceberg split

www.washingtonpost.com/.../pine-island-glacier-before-and-after-...
by Jason Samenow -
Nov 18, 2013 - A giant mass of ice, about the size of Virginia Beach, broke off of Antarctica's Pine Island glacier last week and is slowly drifting away. A crack at ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...acier-before-and-after-massive-iceberg-split/

Cue "sea ice"

 

[Arnold Martin]

I rather doubt that as you seem completely unfamilliar with it. Would you care to quote a climate scientist saying Antarctica woul be warm by the winter of 2013?

.

(quote) The rapidly melting Arctic is an "economic time bomb" that will cost $60 trillion or more over the next 10 years, say a group of European economic and science researchers.

That staggering number approaches the $70 trillion value of the entire world economy in 2012, the scientists say in a comment in the journal Nature.

The researchers — Gail Whiteman, of the Rotterdam School of Management at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, Chris Hope of the Cambridge Judge Business School and Peter Wadhams, a professor of ocean physics at University of Cambridge, both in Britain — are urging creation of an economic model for the impact of climate change.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/melting-arctic-ice-called-economic-time-bomb-1.1372524

..............................................

(quote) Scientists from the University of Texas, looking at the Garwood Valley–one of the southern McMurdo Dry Valleys of Antarctica–have found that the rate of permafrost melting there is now 10 times the historic rate documented for the entire present geological era—a "dramatic shift from recent history," according to report lead author Joseph Levy.

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/b...ng-10-times-faster-than-it-has-in-11000-years

...........................................

Notice I highlighted .... "urging creation of an economic model for the impact of climate change" .... because that is the agenda .... that is the motive .... another "model" ... another source of funding ... another paycheck for the warmists ... none of whom could change the temperature of this planet even if they wanted to ... they think they are little gods and saviors of the planet. .... I think they should keep their religion to themselves and not mix it with climate science. ... I do not wish to be one of their disciples.

The planet regulates itself for the most part .... if humans contribute it is a miniscule amount .... and if we stopped using carbon based fuel the results would be miniscule temperature wise .... but the harm to the people would be catastrophic.

The industrial age of using fossil fuels has been the best thing mankind has done to improve the quality of life.

 

[Corsair 115]

.

(quote) The rapidly melting Arctic is an "economic time bomb" that will cost $60 trillion or more over the next 10 years, say a group of European economic and science researchers.

That staggering number approaches the $70 trillion value of the entire world economy in 2012, the scientists say in a comment in the journal Nature.

The researchers — Gail Whiteman, of the Rotterdam School of Management at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, Chris Hope of the Cambridge Judge Business School and Peter Wadhams, a professor of ocean physics at University of Cambridge, both in Britain — are urging creation of an economic model for the impact of climate change.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/melting-arctic-ice-called-economic-time-bomb-1.1372524

Nowhere in that article does it say the Arctic (or Antarctic) will be ice-free in 2013.

 

[macdoc]

Wilder, wetter, warmer, colder...

and that's only one week in December in North America

and that's only the last weekend in December in North America....for those of you not so versed in Fahrenheit....that's a 49 C difference between Georgia and North Dakota.

The weekend before Christmas proved nightmarish for many travelers and surreal for holiday shoppers, as Winter Storm Gemini tied up air travel and record warmth forced East Coast residents to hang up their coats and don short sleeves instead.

Now, this freakish weather is being etched into the record books. Let's step through some of the highlights, starting with the record warmth.

Historic December Heat

Observed highs on Saturday, Dec. 21, 2013.

Observed highs on Sunday, Dec. 22, 2013.

Persistent southerly winds brought a massive influx of warm air north from the tropics, sending temperatures to record levels in at least 18 states. Dozens of daily records were broken.

More significant, however, are the monthly records that were broken in several large East Coast cities with very long periods of weather record-keeping. The following cities tied or broke all-time record highs for the month of December:

while these cities were baking - - North Dakota was sitting under the continental high that is currently sitting over us....Manitoba had windchill to -50 C yesterday and we are heading here in the Toronto for -21 before the windchill. That is a nasty slow moving high bringing very frigid winter weather we have not seen in a while.

extreme weather indeed...
http://www.weather.com/news/weather-forecast/december-record-highs-historic-rainfall-20131223

 

[macdoc]

Meanwhile the heat goes on down under

Experts see more freakish hot weather
Date
January 1, 2014

Australia's hottest-ever year, and Canberra's second-hottest year on record, could have been even worse were it not for neutral El Nino conditions and early monsoons, according to weather experts, one of whom described 2013's extremes as "freakish".
And after a hotter and drier-than-usual December, Canberra's fire services are geared up for a potentially dangerous month to come as the outlook for January predicts a higher chance of dry conditions.

For Canberra, 2013 narrowly missed being the city's hottest year on record, with an average temperature across the year of 21.7 degrees - just .05 degrees cooler than the record-breaking 2006.

Around the country, all capital cities recorded temperatures in their top-10 hottest for the year. Sydney and Adelaide sizzled through their hottest years ever. Despite "blitzing" hot weather records, University of NSW climate expert Sarah Perkins said 2013's heat was not a surprise after a pattern of more heat extremes and fewer cold-weather records over the past three decades.

Dr Perkins said the multitude of records broken in 2013 (hottest year, hottest month, hottest day) was made extraordinary by the fact that the El Nino Southern Oscillation index was neutral, with no tendency for the hotter, drier weather typically associated with El Nino summers.

"The last two summers have both fallen as neutral summers, and we've seen quite record-breaking conditions. So if we were to have an El Nino year in one of these two summers it certainly would have seen more amplified extremes," she said. "If it weren't for human-induced climate change, occasionally a record would be broken here or there, but you certainly wouldn't get nearly as many in one year. That's a very freakish thing to have."

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...hot-weather-20131231-304ob.html#ixzz2p7dzNFLK

what was that about global warming isn't real??

 

[lionking]

what was that about global warming isn't real??

We are acutely conscious of the hot year in Australia (well apart from Andrew Bolt and his acolytes). Bushfires in Sydney in September!

We live in an extreme bushfire zone, and are only alive due to a wind change on Black Saturday. If it were five minutes later we wouldn't have known what hit us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Saturday_bushfires

We've had an average rainfall year, which just means that vegetation is high. I'd love to believe that AGW is not contributing to this. But I'm not an idiot (unlike Bolt and PM Abbott).

 

[Arnold Martin]

Settled science is not conflicting with settled science, but rather with your pre-conceived ideas about what science is. Hint: science isn't the one in the wrong.

About moving ice, how do you expect ice moving makes it impossible to date ice cores?

Or are you imagining the ice having moved from someplace else entirely?

Not at all .... accumulations of Antarctica meteorites are the result of the ice moving (toward the sea) over several centuries.

I cannot reconcile that with the (claims) that those same ice fields have remained there for 800,000 years .

Remember the warmists (claim) to be able to measure CO2 levels from almost a million years ago by that method (ice core samples)

........................

Now please allow me the opportunity to blurt out some random memories from deep within my uneducated helicopter pilot brain ....

--- before the internet .... before global warming scare tactics became commonplace ... I was involved , and supported , and donated toward the recovery of the WW2 squadron of aircraft that landed on the ice sheets of Greenland ... bad weather and fuel exhaustion forced them down ... they were abandoned in "pristine condition" ... and were preserved within the ice .

--- the general location was already known ... the depth they were "buried" was the unknown factor ... so we hired expert (ice core) scientists to help us determine how deep to search .... we even cut our own (crude) core samples and brought them to their labs so they could educate us.

--- what they showed us made sense .... layers that represented years , plus allowances and variables for mid-season short warming phenomenon (melting snow turning back to clear ice layers) ... etc etc .... and we were told we only had to go down a few feet because the aircraft were there for less than 50 years.
--- well guess what .... they were not even close .... we had to dump the scientific ice core dating system and we kept probing deeper and deeper until were able to find the aircraft 260 feet below the surface of the glacier
For this and many other reasons I do not automatically bow down at the altar of ice core dating systems

Even after finding the lost squadron we had ice core scientists come back to see for themselves ... they had the most peculiar and puzzled demeanor's ... it was as though their religion had collapsed and a couple of them still insisted it was thousands of years of ice layers above the planes. I actually felt sorry for them .... they were great guys who only wanted to help us , some even donated their time at no charge.

Best wishes in your studies.

 

[Arnold Martin]

Nowhere in that article does it say the Arctic (or Antarctic) will be ice-free in 2013.

.
Are you denying all the rhetoric of the past 25 years saying the polar ice caps were melting and would put all our shorelines under water ??

remember that ??? .... I do.

So My point is very simple .... do we have global shoreline flooding ?? ... No , we do not

Do we still have lots of ice on the Poles ? ... yes we do.

Do we need another new and improved "climate model" to prove that ? ... no we do not.

By the way ... I do not mind a "scientist" making a mistake .... life is like that .... science is like that .... I also do not mind if the planet warms up a couple of degrees ... it would be an advantage to a country like Canada.

But I become extremely cautious when politicians and world leaders demand trillions of dollars from the people so they can save the planet for the people.

Those people cannot even save themselves ...

Sending carbon credits to third world countries run by dictators will not save the planet either.

If our excessive use of carbon is indeed the primary cause we each could do something about it.... cut out all our waste ... stop being so fat and lazy .... I bet we could reduce CO2 output by 30-50 %

But we dont want to

We want to be little dictators and force somebody else to cut back

And that is the dangerous mindset .... because history is replete with examples of dictators who leave the people starving and freezing in the dark

The industrial age and the burning of fossil fuels has freed us from starvation and cold .... dictators never have

Want to double your gas mileage ? .... drive half as much