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Ghislaine Maxwell

You have zero understanding of criminal law and are just here to take the p!ss.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CRIMINAL LAW. I'm talking about whether the person actually committed the deeds they are accused of, regardless of how a jury finds her. How can you possibly be so wrong about everything?

As for taking the piss, you're just angry that I don't take your lies at face value, and you have no argument.
 
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No, a pyramid implies everybody recruits an equal number of other recruits.

No it doesn't. They usually do, but there's no reason why the number of recruits couldn't change depending on one's level.

You clearly do not understand analogy and metaphor.

Said by the person who doesn't understand that what she did was not an analogy.
 
I am a professional accountant by trade. I have caught at least two high level embezzlers in my career. I saw the play Enron at the Tricycle Theatre and read the book. I followed the Madoff trial. I saw Wolf of Wall Street.

So part of your expertise on criminal law is that you saw a movie, saw a piece of theatre, read a book and 'followed' a trial?

Wow, I apologise for everything I said. Clearly you are a peerless master.

Oh, wait. None of these has anything to do with understanding criminal law.
 
Hang on a moment are you saying my claim to be a lunar expert isn’t kosher?

I’ll have you know I’ve watched every episode of Space 1999!

I have you beat. I also watched Apollo 13!

I also read some wiki articles about the moon, and my parents saw the moon landing. You can't beat that.
 
Am I right in saying a pyramid selling scheme is a specific type of Ponzi scheme, in that it relies on new recruits paying older ones? Or are they two completely different things?

Either way, the terms are not interchangeable.
 
Oh yes I can... I SAW the moon landings... all six of them

So there, take that !

A former colleague is related by marriage to Michael Collins, and her mum has a photo from inside the Families' briefing for the Apollo 11 mission, which we think is pretty cool
 
Am I right in saying a pyramid selling scheme is a specific type of Ponzi scheme, in that it relies on new recruits paying older ones? Or are they two completely different things?

Either way, the terms are not interchangeable.

It also has little to do with credible allegations that Maxwell herself raped several of the children. Nor that she and Epstein used violence or threats of violence against them.
 
In that case I bow to your superior expertise.

Au contraire, surely that makes me (marginally) less well qualified given the (for want of a better word) logic of this?
 
Appeal to authority fallacy



Another appeal to authority fallacy



Good for you... but irrelevant!



Again, good for you, but irrelevant!




And again, good for you, but irrelevant!



Now you are describing multi-level marketing... which is legal, and not a pyramid scheme (which is not legal). You claim to be an accountant, but you don't know the difference between a pyramid scheme, and multi level marketing. I'm not surprised.

No-one (me included) has ever claimed Epstein's outfit was like a Tupperware party.



Irrelevant!



Oh, I understand 100% how Epstein's scheme worked (at least as far as we are able to see into it without further information... and it was nothing, repeat NOTHING like a Ponzi scheme. Your claim to that effect is complete and utter bollocks.


Sex Ponzi as an analogy.

Individuals that engage in a Sex Ponzi analogy focus all of their energy into attracting new Johns/clients to make investments in your Sex Ponzi. This new income is used to pay the original sex workers their returns, marked as a profit – (which is huge compared to what the sex workers are paid and what the Sex Ponzi organiser takes from their clients) - from a legitimate transaction from, for example, buying a ticket to an ‘exclusive event’.

An analogy is a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

What is an example of an analogy?

An analogy is saying something is like something else to make some sort of explanatory point. For example, “Life is like a box of chocolates—you never know what you're gonna get.”

Epstein/Maxwell Sex Ponzi Analogy

Epstein invests in some sex workers. He likes variety and at least three sessions a day for himself. The other stipulation is that they must look young. In order to keep up demand, Maxwell offers the girls a payment (for them, a generous one) for recruiting amongst their friends. So the girls recruit their friends in exchange for cash payment.

However, the limitations are:

• The number of girls Epstein can be serviced by in one day/one week/one month. Let’s say, twenty a week and 80 a month. Over three months that is either 240 different girls, a combination of different girls and the same girl, as no one girl is available three times a day for six days a week, nor does Epstein want the same girl more than a few times.
• The girls’ age. Once a girl starts looking like 20-something, she is redundant, but could still recruit.
• The number of parties and ‘events’ at which Epstein can share the girls around.
• The number of people attending these events that would want one of Epstein’s girls.

Unlimited factors are:

• The amount of cash Epstein has. For a disadvantaged teenager €200 is a lot of money and hard to turn down, especially if she can multiply it several times, and earn further cash from introducing friends.
• The number of attendees at Epstein and Maxwell events, presumably the more girls Epstein can provide the more interest in predatory men.
• The predatory men being selected for the wealth by Epstein and Maxwell also have no problems in ‘investing’ indirectly with Epstein, in exchange for sexual ‘favours’ from his stable. Perhaps included in the price of the ticket for the event.
• Epstein encourages his contacts to recruit more contacts to his scheme.
• Maxwell and Epstein are the middle men who bring the two parties together.

The Price

• The girls being young and from dysfunctional families in the main, although some are from wealthy homes and well-educated, know it is illegal but don’t realise the toll on their mental health in later years.
• They may contract STD’s, pregnancies, terminations, a juvenile misdemeanours record.
• The toll may include becoming dependent on drugs or alcohol to help cope with the stress of be used as a sex object by various men, some many years older than themselves.
• Likewise, the ‘clients’ realise that Epstein and Maxwell have ‘something’ on them, perhaps in the form of photos, tapes and videos. They realise they could be – or are being – blackmailed.
• They are incentivised to keep the operation secret, especially if they are ‘respectable citizens’ with wives and children.
• They are incentivised to keep the operation secret because underage sex is illegal.

The Risks for Epstein/Maxwell

• A serious crime conviction in conspiracy to sex traffic underage girls.
• A serious crime conspiracy to run a prostitution ring.
• A serious crime conspiracy to run a protection racket, for example, demanding ‘subs’ from their contact lists, or threats of exposure.

So: the sex workers invest their bodies into the scheme in exchange for ready cash and the lure of glamorous parties in exotic locations and mingling with the rich and famous.

The johns invest in Epstein’s ‘foundation’ and in attending his events, including scientific dinners with renowned scientists of the day, including Stephen Hawkings and Steven Pinker as guests (NB, there is no evidence they were johns), parties and orgies at his Zorro ranch in New Mexico and Little St. James’s in the Caribbean.

Epstein and Maxwell invest to build up this covert and illegal sex ring operation and to protect their ‘investments’ they tape record the goings on between the sex workers and the johns. The FBI found concealed video equipment in every room of his New York mansion, for example.

The Sting

• One or two of the sex workers realise the toll their ‘work’ has taken. They go to the police. They contact an attorney.
• The johns threaten the girls with legal action
• A corrupt judge, Acosta, takes nominal action to shut the case down by imposing a lenient sentence on Epstein and giving indemnity from legal action to his associates, which includes Maxwell.
• A group of former sex workers, including Giuffre, find an attorney willing to represent them, Bradley Edwards.
• The case is moved to New York and Epstein is arrested.
• It seems the game is over for the johns and the sex workers, but then Epstein is found dead in his cell and an inaudible sigh of relief goes up amongst the johns.
• Maxwell has gone into hiding.
• But then, she is discovered, arrested and charged
• Game on.
• The bottom begins to fall out.
• The girls’ lives are wrecked but they get compo.
• The johns lives may be wrecked - but not yet! - the higher up they are (Clinton, the British Royal Family) the harder they will fall.
• They may need to explain why they paid hugely inflated prices for a dinner, for example, over and beyond the costs of an airfare and accommodation.
• Many will have recharged the costs to their corporations as ‘client entertaining’. Such an expenses reduces their corporation tax bill as an allowable deduction form net profit.
 
And what has that to do with whether or not Maxwell was actually responsible for raping* multiple children, and enabling the rape of many more?


*And given the plausible claims of violent coercion - any question about age of consent is actually a red herring.

ETA: Unless there is some utterly astounding revelation - for example a body double or something equally implausible, there's enough information to say she's guilty of rape and slavery

That may or may not be so. Remember: you have received all of this information via Bradley Edwards and Virginia Guiffre's superb PR campaign to highlight the issue.

A criminal court of law will take the view of

  • a presumption of innocence until it has heard ALL of the evidence brought before it
  • a level playing field: the parties will be treated equitably.
  • Justice is to be seen and heard.
  • Justice is blind.
  • Then and only then after ALL the evidence is put forward and EACH of the parties heard is the verdict considered.

And that is the way it should be.
 
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT CRIMINAL LAW. I'm talking about whether the person actually committed the deeds they are accused of, regardless of how a jury finds her. How can you possibly be so wrong about everything?

As for taking the piss, you're just angry that I don't take your lies at face value, and you have no argument.

We ARE talking about criminal law. The subsection is TRIALS and errors.

You cannot browbeat me no matter what tactic you might like to try.
 
We ARE talking about criminal law. The subsection is TRIALS and errors.

You cannot browbeat me no matter what tactic you might like to try.

Tactic?

I was literally talking about ACTUAL guilt. It's in the post I made that you quoted. It wasn't about criminal law. Just becaus the thread is in a section about trials doesn't mean that every single post is about criminal law.

Your inability or unwillingness to understand even the simplest point is worrying.
 

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