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Ghislaine Maxwell

theprestige said:
ETA: Also, what's the Prince's line of defense supposed to be? "No, no! I believed I had engaged the services of an ethical pimp! It would have been ungentlemanly of me to doubt their honor and ask for proof that the barely-legal morsels they sent to warm my bed were in fact barely legal! I'm blameless here! Just another defrauded customer!"
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It was because Prince Andrew was "too honourable"



And raping minors is " unbecoming"
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Now I have zero knowledge of how horrible Maxwell's jail conditions really are, I'm only saying that it shouldn't be made deliberately so, because the innocent accused are put through that as well as the guilty.
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All we have are allegations and responses. Yes, they do check on her every 15 minutes and use a flashlight at night. There are ways to mitigate it, but such requirements are inhumane, or something. Also, the sheets aren't 600 thread count, there is a pea under the mattress, and her flatware is plastic and not silver. I mean, how dare we? Don't we know she was/is filthy wealthy and just can't live like this?

Even if every claim is 100% true, it's a case to move her to a better jail, not freedom. But that is not a request she has made. She has no interests in a better cell, only freedom.
 
Ian Osborne said:
Yes, those are the very specific circumstances I referred to. The teenager needs to be with a responsible adult too.
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And I'm sure it would have been legal for Epstein to have had sex with the 14 year-old that Maxwell had trafficked for him, so long as she (the 14 year-old) was given a meal, and her Mum and Dad were present in the room while she was being statutorily raped.

Its perfectly fine and legal... just ask Vixen, she will confirm this for you, won't you Vixen?

ETA: And no, Vixen, that is not twisting your narrative either...in posts #681 and #683 you are clearly and directly likening what Maxwell did to a bartender serving people in a bar. Statutory Rape is illegal, and so is serving under-age people with alcohol, so they're all the same, right? That is what you are saying - that raping an under-aged girl is no worse a crime than serving them alcohol in a bar. That might not be what you meant to say, but it is definitely what you did say.
 
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theprestige said:
Ethically, perhaps they're different. Legally, they're pretty much on the same level.

And ethically, if you're a bartender considering serving an apparently of-age minor without first verifying their age, you're letting the owner of the establishment (and yourself) in for a lot of trouble in fines and loss of license.


I'm not. Rape is rape, regardless of the age of the victim. Date rape is rape, regardless of the apparent compliance of the victim. Statutory rape is rape, regardless of how few hours away from the age of majority the victim happens to be.

And there is a legal (and I believe moral) obligation on the partner to verify age before moving forward. "I didn't know she was actually underage" is not a defense that works in most cases. It certainly doesn't work for me.

So. Victims have come forward, alleging trafficking by Maxwell and her co-conspirators, and alleging rape by them and their customers. If those allegations are true, then Maxwell is complicit in sex trafficking and rape, many times over. I think "serial rapist" is a reasonable epithet for that kind of thing, even if Maxwell herself never participated in the actual acts of rape. Just being a co-conspirator puts her all the way in bed with the rapists.

If you want to withhold judgement until the allegations are proven to your satisfaction, that I can understand.

But you seem to be arguing that we should withhold judgement because the alleged actions aren't actually a big deal even if true. That I don't understand. Do you just... not think sex trafficking and rape are serious problems?

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ETA: Also, what's the Prince's line of defense supposed to be? "No, no! I believed I had engaged the services of an ethical pimp! It would have been ungentlemanly of me to doubt their honor and ask for proof that the barely-legal morsels they sent to warm my bed were in fact barely legal! I'm blameless here! Just another defrauded customer!"
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Maxwell hasn't been charged with the more serious crime of 'conspiracy' and if she was it won't matter as she is already facing a maximum sentence for the age thing anyway.

Remember, she is only being charged for the fact that some of her procured sex workers were technically minors. Not rape. Not for conspiracy.

As for the Prince Andrew thing, he has known her as a friend since her Oxford University days, so whilst Maxwell may well have procured a sex worker for him, it might be hard to prove he paid her for it. Although prostitution is no longer illegal in the UK, I believe that pimping still is, 'living off immoral earnings'. So to present a case against Andrew you'd have to show that (a) he paid Maxwell for her pimping services and (b) he was aware she was an underage sex-trafficked prostitute.
 
theprestige said:
I don't think they're being made purposely horrible, except to the degree necessary to mitigate the risk of suicide (or "suicide").

The argument seems to be that whatever the baseline of horribleness that all detainees are subjected to, wealthy detainees should be subjected to something much less horrible, much closer to the lifestyle to which they are accustomed. Because it's just not fair that the rich and powerful accused should be forced to languish in exactly the same conditions that the Poors routinely put up with.
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Really? How does shining a torch in her face every fifteen minutes whilst trying to sleep prevent suicide? How does a torch convey a pulse beating? A dead person can look very much like a sleeping person.
 
timhau said:
I agree. However, if the conditions really are substandard, why is that an issue only now that they have a rich white woman in the cell?
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I don't know if you've read the recent newspaper articles but harsh conditions seems standard, with many US prisoners dying of Covid with the authorities refusing them leave to die in humane conditions. Maybe it takes a high profile person to highlight prison brutality.
 
smartcooky said:
And I'm sure it would have been legal for Epstein to have had sex with the 14 year-old that Maxwell had trafficked for him, so long as she (the 14 year-old) was given a meal, and her Mum and Dad were present in the room while she was being statutorily raped.

Its perfectly fine and legal... just ask Vixen, she will confirm this for you, won't you Vixen?

ETA: And no, Vixen, that is not twisting your narrative either...in posts #681 and #683 you are clearly and directly likening what Maxwell did to a bartender serving people in a bar. Statutory Rape is illegal, and so is serving under-age people with alcohol, so they're all the same, right? That is what you are saying - that raping an under-aged girl is no worse a crime than serving them alcohol in a bar. That might not be what you meant to say, but it is definitely what you did say.
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What I am trying to point out at great pains is that for all of the things Maxwell could have been prosecuted for (conspiracy? running a prostitution racket? drugs? blackmail? extortion? demanding money with menaces? illegal taping of people having sex? espionage? funding from a hostile foreign power? bribery? corruption? money laundering?) all she has been charged with is the technicality of some members of her sex worker stable being underage and for lying in a deposition. I predict she'll be found guilty, get a nominal sentence, maybe five years and that will be the end of it.

She will not be convicted of being a horrible woman no matter how much one despises her.
 
Vixen said:
What I am trying to point out at great pains is that for all of the things Maxwell could have been prosecuted for (conspiracy? running a prostitution racket? drugs? blackmail? extortion? demanding money with menaces? illegal taping of people having sex? espionage? funding from a hostile foreign power? bribery? corruption? money laundering?) all she has been charged with is the technicality of some members of her sex worker stable being underage and for lying in a deposition. I predict she'll be found guilty, get a nominal sentence, maybe five years and that will be the end of it.
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Five years... you're dreaming.

You've obviously never heard of a "superseding indictment"!

I'm guessing you probably didn't even know about this one, because you obviously didn't realise that she has in fact been charged with conspiracy.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/maxwell-superseding-3.29.21.pdf

1 . The charges set forth herein stem from the role of GHISLAINE MAXWELL , the defendant , in the sexual exploitation and abuse of multiple minor girls by Jeffrey Epstein. In particular, from at least in or about 1994 , up to and including at least in or about 2004 , MAXWELL assisted, facilitated , and contributed to Jeffrey Epstein's abuse of minor girls by, among other things, helping Epstein to recruit , groom, and ultimately abuse victims known to MAXWELL and Epstein to be under the age of 18 . The victims were as young as 14 years old when they were groomed and abused by MAXWELL and Epstein, both of whom knew that certain victims were in fact under the age of 18.

2 . As a part and in furtherance of their scheme to abuse minor victims, GHISLAINE MAXWELL , the defendant , and Jeffrey Epstein enticed and caused minor victims to travel to Epstein ' s residences in different states , which MAXWELL knew and intended would result in their grooming for and subjection to sexual abuse . Moreover, in an effort to conceal her crimes, MAXWELL repeatedly lied when questioned about her conduct, including in relation to some of the minor victims described herein, when providing testimony under oath in 2016 ​
.

Those charges against her (all under Title 18) are as follows...

18 USC § 371 Conspiracy to commit an offense
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

18 USC § 1591 Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
(a) Whoever knowingly—

(1) in or affecting interstate commerce, recruits, entices, harbors, transports, provides, or obtains by any means a person; or

(2) benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participation in a venture which has engaged in an act described in violation of paragraph (1),

knowing that force, fraud, or coercion described in subsection (c)(2) will be used to cause the person to engage in a commercial sex act, or that the person has not attained the age of 18 years and will be caused to engage in a commercial sex act, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).

(b) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) is—

(1) if the offense was effected by force, fraud, or coercion or if the person transported had not attained the age of 14 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both; or

(2) if the offense was not so effected, and the person transported had attained the age of 14 years but had not attained the age of 18 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC § 1623 False declarations before grand jury or court
(a) Whoever under oath (or in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code) in any proceeding before or ancillary to any court or grand jury of the United States knowingly makes any false material declaration or makes or uses any other information, including any book, paper, document, record, recording, or other material, knowing the same to contain any false material declaration, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

18 USC § 2422 (a) Coercion and enticement
(a) Knowingly persuading, inducing, enticing or coercing an individual to travel in interstate or foreign commerce with the purpose of engaging in prostitution or any criminal sexual activity, or attempting to do so, and imposes a maximum punishment of 10 years and/or a fine.

18 USC§ 2422 (b) Coercion and enticement
(b) If the individual who has been persuaded, induced, enticed, or coerced to engage in prostitution or other criminal sexual act is under the age of 18, then the penalty is 15 years imprisonment and/or a fine.

18 USC § 2423 (a) Transportation of Minors
(a) Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity.—
A person who knowingly transports an individual who has not attained the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any commonwealth, territory or possession of the United States, with intent that the individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title and imprisoned not less than 10 years or for life.
She will be damned lucky if she gets less than 25 years
 
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Vixen said:
Really? How does shining a torch in her face every fifteen minutes whilst trying to sleep prevent suicide? How does a torch convey a pulse beating? A dead person can look very much like a sleeping person.
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And what solution do you propose? How does not being able see the prisoner prevent suicide? Sure, they could put a pulse tracker on her, but that will only tell them when she is dead, not prevent it.
 
People aren't "technically" minors; they are legally minors in each jurisdiction. Just because some other jurisdiction wouldn't consider them minors does not mean anything. And let's be clear: two of the accusers were 14 when they were recruited, that's a minor just about anywhere. Let's dispense with the legal words and just call them what they are: children.

And frankly, I find the idea that another jurisdiction would shrug off the kinds of things Maxwell is accused of unlikely. These young girls were not "sex workers." They were kids that got caught up in something they weren't mature enough to grasp or get themselves out of. They were sent off to have sex with Epstein's friends. That's not prostitution, that's child sex trafficking.
 
Just one example of dozens of these girls' stories:

Some of the testimony released Friday is difficult to read, as when one 15-year-old Swedish girl, shaking and crying in fear, told a butler who worked for two of Epstein’s closest friends that she had been taken to Epstein’s private island in the Caribbean and ordered to have sex with him and others. The butler, in a sworn statement, said the girl, visibly traumatized, told him that Epstein and Maxwell had physically threatened to harm her and seized her passport to keep her on the island, according to the butler’s statement.

The houseman, Rinaldo Rizzo, worked for Dubin and his wife, Eva, a former Miss Sweden who is a physician and founder of the Dubin Breast Center at Mount Sinai. Rizzo said that the girl was so distraught she couldn’t recall how she got back to the U.S. mainland but that it was Maxwell who returned her to the Dubin residence in New York.
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Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article233704797.html#storylink=cpy
 
smartcooky said:
Five years... you're dreaming.

You've obviously never heard of a "superseding indictment"!

I'm guessing you probably didn't even know about this one, because you obviously didn't realise that she has in fact been charged with conspiracy.

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/maxwell-superseding-3.29.21.pdf

1 . The charges set forth herein stem from the role of GHISLAINE MAXWELL , the defendant , in the sexual exploitation and abuse of multiple minor girls by Jeffrey Epstein. In particular, from at least in or about 1994 , up to and including at least in or about 2004 , MAXWELL assisted, facilitated , and contributed to Jeffrey Epstein's abuse of minor girls by, among other things, helping Epstein to recruit , groom, and ultimately abuse victims known to MAXWELL and Epstein to be under the age of 18 . The victims were as young as 14 years old when they were groomed and abused by MAXWELL and Epstein, both of whom knew that certain victims were in fact under the age of 18.

2 . As a part and in furtherance of their scheme to abuse minor victims, GHISLAINE MAXWELL , the defendant , and Jeffrey Epstein enticed and caused minor victims to travel to Epstein ' s residences in different states , which MAXWELL knew and intended would result in their grooming for and subjection to sexual abuse . Moreover, in an effort to conceal her crimes, MAXWELL repeatedly lied when questioned about her conduct, including in relation to some of the minor victims described herein, when providing testimony under oath in 2016 ​
.

Those charges against her (all under Title 18) are as follows...

18 USC § 371 Conspiracy to commit an offense
If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

18 USC § 1591 Sex trafficking of children or by force, fraud, or coercion
(a) Whoever knowingly—

(1) in or affecting interstate commerce, recruits, entices, harbors, transports, provides, or obtains by any means a person; or

(2) benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participation in a venture which has engaged in an act described in violation of paragraph (1),

knowing that force, fraud, or coercion described in subsection (c)(2) will be used to cause the person to engage in a commercial sex act, or that the person has not attained the age of 18 years and will be caused to engage in a commercial sex act, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).

(b) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) is—

(1) if the offense was effected by force, fraud, or coercion or if the person transported had not attained the age of 14 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both; or

(2) if the offense was not so effected, and the person transported had attained the age of 14 years but had not attained the age of 18 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both.


18 USC § 1623 False declarations before grand jury or court
(a) Whoever under oath (or in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury as permitted under section 1746 of title 28, United States Code) in any proceeding before or ancillary to any court or grand jury of the United States knowingly makes any false material declaration or makes or uses any other information, including any book, paper, document, record, recording, or other material, knowing the same to contain any false material declaration, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

18 USC § 2422 (a) Coercion and enticement
(a) Knowingly persuading, inducing, enticing or coercing an individual to travel in interstate or foreign commerce with the purpose of engaging in prostitution or any criminal sexual activity, or attempting to do so, and imposes a maximum punishment of 10 years and/or a fine.

18 USC§ 2422 (b) Coercion and enticement
(b) If the individual who has been persuaded, induced, enticed, or coerced to engage in prostitution or other criminal sexual act is under the age of 18, then the penalty is 15 years imprisonment and/or a fine.

18 USC § 2423 (a) Transportation of Minors
(a) Transportation With Intent To Engage in Criminal Sexual Activity.—
A person who knowingly transports an individual who has not attained the age of 18 years in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any commonwealth, territory or possession of the United States, with intent that the individual engage in prostitution, or in any sexual activity for which any person can be charged with a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title and imprisoned not less than 10 years or for life.
She will be damned lucky if she gets less than 25 years
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Thanks for the summary and clairifications. OK fair enough, she is being done for a conspiracy to traffic minors.

I am still resistant to the idea that it is somehow a heinous crime to have sex workers under the age of 18, but the cynical procurement of all of those hundreds of other sex workers, also exploited by Maxwell and Epstein, for the sexual gratification of their extensive clients is all right.

It's almost as if they are charging her on a loop hole rather than on charging her with running a prostitution racket full stop, not to mention the likely extortion and blackmail ensuing from it.
 
Leftus said:
And what solution do you propose? How does not being able see the prisoner prevent suicide? Sure, they could put a pulse tracker on her, but that will only tell them when she is dead, not prevent it.
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There is CCTV into her cell, which she has also complained about as it means she has difficulty speaking to her lawyers in private as they can zoom in on legally privileged documents. An electronic device - not dissimilar to a smart watch - would indicate when she was asleep and thus incapable of killing herself...?
 
Vixen said:
There is CCTV into her cell, which she has also complained about as it means she has difficulty speaking to her lawyers in private as they can zoom in on legally privileged documents.
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Gee, that really must suck for her. If only she could've avoided that predicament...
 
Vixen said:
Thanks for the summary and clairifications. OK fair enough, she is being done for a conspiracy to traffic minors.

I am still resistant to the idea that it is somehow a heinous crime to have sex workers under the age of 18, but the cynical procurement of all of those hundreds of other sex workers, also exploited by Maxwell and Epstein, for the sexual gratification of their extensive clients is all right.

It's almost as if they are charging her on a loop hole rather than on charging her with running a prostitution racket full stop, not to mention the likely extortion and blackmail ensuing from it.
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Your problem is that you don't think any of these are really serious crimes. Perhaps you come from a jurisdiction where offences such as these are regarded as misdemeanours - minor or petty crimes. You have spent the last few days downplaying them, minimizing the import of what she has been charged with, or claiming that they are no big deal.

Well, the facts are that these Federal statutes carry punishments such as "10 years and/or a fine", "not more than 20 years", "fined and imprisoned not less than 10 years or for life", "imprisonment for any term of years or for life, or both". That ought to tell you that these are ******* serious crimes, very ******* serious!

Regardless of whether or not where you come from takes statutory rape, prostitution and human trafficking for sex seriously, these crimes were committed in the USA, and fall under Federal jurisdiction. The fact that the age of consent other countries might be lower than in the USA is completely and utterly irrelevant - you commit a Federal crime in the US, you are subject to their Federal Laws... End . Of . Story!
 
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