Germany had the atomic bomb first

[realpaladin]

It was a very tiny nuke.

And they hid it where all the Jews hid their evidence of their conspiracy.

 

[GanipGnop]

No... and they didn't have the jet plane or the rocket first either. The first jet engine was invented by englishman Frank Whittle and the liquid fueled rocket was invented by American Robert Goddard.

The krauts couldn't come up with anything on their own, their alleged advancement was little more than stealing ideas from the brits, the yanks and the only reason they even concieved of a nuclear weapon was because a jew came up with it first.

The Germans didn't have an atomic bomb but their mastery of of rockets and jets is unquestionable. The United States didn't run operation "Paperclip" to duplicate Goddard's work they did it because the Germans were decades ahead of US. "Hermann Julius Oberth was a Romanian and German physicist and engineer of Saxon ancestry, who along with the Russian Konstantin Tsiolkovsky and the American Robert H. Goddard, was one of the founding fathers of rocketry and astronautics. The three never were active collaborators, and in fact, never knew one another: instead, their parallel achievements occurred independently of one another". Not to mention Goddard "copied" his liquid-fueled engine type from a Peruvian scientist Pedro Paulet that had developed it in 1895. The V-1 was the worlds first cruise missile and the V-2 was the first ballistic missile why didn't Goddard claim these innovations?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Oberth

Otto Hahn is regarded as "the father of nuclear chemistry" and the "founder of the atomic age" Meitner collaborated with him not the other way around. At most she can share the limelight she's not center stage.

Otto Hahn

And a German Ida Noddack was the first to mention the idea of nuclear fission in 1934 so the Germans weren't just copying everyone's ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Noddack

The first patent for using a gas turbine to power an aircraft was filed in 1921 by Frenchman Maxime Guillaume it used axial compression. Whipple improved on this design through the use of a two-stage axial compressor. Wipple's centrifugal-flow engine had technical problems that increased the engine size. The German's introduction of the smaller axial-flow compressor engine allowed for a more practical jet design. "Following the end of the war the German jet aircraft and jet engines were extensively studied by the victorious allies and contributed to work on early Soviet and US jet fighters. The legacy of the axial-flow engine is seen in the fact that practically all jet engines on fixed wing aircraft have had some inspiration from this design". The US wouldn't have run "Operation Lusty" if the Germans were just copying Whipple designs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_engine

 

[JFrankA]

And they hid it where all the Jews hid their evidence of their conspiracy.

Same place they keep their "Jew Gold"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jew gold







(Gotta love South Park...)

 

[Cleon]

Right. So an atomic bomb was created and tested twice by Germany and hardly anybody noticed even in a densely populated European country. But the holocaust is a myth?

The laughing dog just is not enough for this thread.

I think it died of suffocation.

 

[Fnord]

Why bother? Let MaGZ provide evidence for his claim, like a map outlining the craters around Rügen and Thuringia. Just don't hold your breath.

Oh, I know ... but it is also fun for me when I am able to undermine the validity of any eventual source that he could cite by providing evidence that his claim was only Nazi propaganda.

It should also be easy enough to locate the alleged 'craters' on Google Earth or similar global imaging service.

 

[Eskarina]

I think it died of suffocation.

Evidence?

 

[Eskarina]

Oh, I know ... but it is also fun for me when I am able to undermine the validity of any eventual source that he could cite by providing evidence that his claim was only Nazi propaganda.

Fun is where we find it.

It should also be easy enough to locate the alleged 'craters' on Google Earth or similar global imaging service.

I'm looking forward to this, too. I'm also interested in the cancer statistics in the areas concerned.

 

[Fnord]

I'd lay good odds that MaGZ will ignore the opportunity to provide evidence of his claims, and will begin his ad hominem attacks within the next few posts.

After all, we're not the "... vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another..." that he might have once hoped for us to be.

 

[realpaladin]

I'd lay good odds that MaGZ will ignore the opportunity to provide evidence of his claims, and will begin his ad hominem attacks within the next few posts.

I take that bet. I say he just ignores it all and starts a new thread.

 

[Rasmus]

I'm looking forward to this, too. I'm also interested in the cancer statistics in the areas concerned.

This is gonna be good: Rügen used to be part of East Germany until the reunification; so West German vacation goers would provide control group data until the timey they were able to travel there as well.

Man, I'm just glad my dear old parents have elected to travel to the north sea again this year; I don't think they would enjoy the cancer at all.

 

[Chaos]

It was a very tiny nuke.

Probably the same model that was used to bring down the Twin Towers...

 

[shadron]

Germany had a nuclear program under Werner Heisenberg, but it suffered from a number of problems:

- It removed its best scientists in the Jewish pogroms in the 1930s. It was run by the German theorist Werner Heisenberg, a theorist rather than an experimentalist, who reported through Albert Speer to Hitler;
- It had few sources of uranium, and that which it did manage to confiscate from the Joachimsthal Mines in Czechslovakia was never processed into anything;
- Heisenburg and his scientists made some great guesses about the state of nuclear physics after the secrecy started in early 1939, but one or two bad guesses stymied them;
- Heisenberg managed to create a 30" spherical aluminum reactor made with uranium oxide and their first and only shipment of heavy water from Vemork. It proved to be able to provide copious neutrons, but was very sub-critical. Heisenberg promptly showed the plans to Ernst Bohr in September of 1941 in occupied Denmark. According to Heisenberg's wife, it was to signal to Bohr, a father figure to him, that he wouldn't allow Germany to build a bomb, and much feared that the allies would use one against his country. Bohr at that time didn't believe a bomb was possible, but Heisenberg assured him it was, and even passed him a drawing of his reactor;
- The development of a nuclear reactor was required in order to begin setting sizes for critical masses for enriched Uranium, and to produce Plutonium (it is not clear whether Germany learned about Element 94, Plutonium). One of Heisenberg's errors caused Germany to miss the use of graphite as a moderator and they went with heavy water. The British and Norse sabotage of the Vamorsk plant and the sinking of the ferry Hydro on Lake Tinnsjo put a huge crimp in that effort;
- Lt. Col. Boris Pasch and Lt. Col. John Lansdale Jr. of the Alsos team (alsos is Greek for "grove", the name of the army commander of the Manhattan Project and overall commander of Alsos) picked up all the atomic work they could find in France and Germany, including all the uranium ore stolen from Joachisthmal Mines, Joliet Curie and his lab in Paris, the experimental heavy water reactor at Haigerloch, and the principle scientists: Werner Heisenberg, Otto Hahn, Carl von Weizszacker and Max von Laue, who verified the story of the German effort. The reactor was 33% short in size to have yet achieved sustained reaction.

This is all gleaned from Richard Rhodes' The Making of the Atomic Bomb, mentioned by jhunter above.

 

[GanipGnop]

Heisenburg's Compensator

Germany had a nuclear program under Werner Heisenberg, but it suffered from a number of problems:

I think the proponents of the "German A-Bomb theory" place their faith in the Kurt Diebner program and discount Heisenberg. From what I can see the Diebner theory relies entirely on circumstantial evidence. I think the most telling fact that discounts bomb claims is that the Manhattan project was a multinational effort that cost about 30 billion dollars and needed thousands of scientist and a vast investment of resources. The Germans on the other hand had less than 100 scientist and a constantly shrinking resource base to work with. Also if they had a couple of A-bombs I think they would have tested them on the Russians regardless of how crude they were.

Even PBS is entertaining Diebner's theorist.

"During the last months of the war, a small group of scientists working in secret under Diebner and with the strong support of the physicist Walther Gerlach, who was by that time head of the uranium project, built and tested a nuclear device.

At best this would have been far less destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Rather it is an example of scientists trying to make any sort of weapon they could in order to help stave off defeat. No one knows the exact form of the device tested. But apparently the German scientists had designed it to use chemical high explosives configured in a hollow shell in order to provoke both nuclear fission and nuclear fusion reactions. It is not clear whether this test generated nuclear reactions, but it does appear as if this is what the scientists had intended to occur".

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/close.html

 

[realpaladin]

So at best the claim would be 'Germany almost had the atomic bomb first'.

 

[Fnord]

"... and we would have succeeded too, if it hadn't been for those meddlesome kids and their stupid dog!"

Ja?

 

[MaGZ]

I think the proponents of the "German A-Bomb theory" place their faith in the Kurt Diebner program and discount Heisenberg. From what I can see the Diebner theory relies entirely on circumstantial evidence. I think the most telling fact that discounts bomb claims is that the Manhattan project was a multinational effort that cost about 30 billion dollars and needed thousands of scientist and a vast investment of resources. The Germans on the other hand had less than 100 scientist and a constantly shrinking resource base to work with. Also if they had a couple of A-bombs I think they would have tested them on the Russians regardless of how crude they were.

Even PBS is entertaining Diebner's theorist.

"During the last months of the war, a small group of scientists working in secret under Diebner and with the strong support of the physicist Walther Gerlach, who was by that time head of the uranium project, built and tested a nuclear device.

At best this would have been far less destructive than the atomic bombs dropped on Japan. Rather it is an example of scientists trying to make any sort of weapon they could in order to help stave off defeat. No one knows the exact form of the device tested. But apparently the German scientists had designed it to use chemical high explosives configured in a hollow shell in order to provoke both nuclear fission and nuclear fusion reactions. It is not clear whether this test generated nuclear reactions, but it does appear as if this is what the scientists had intended to occur".

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hydro/close.html

According to the program, Kurt Diebner was the father of the German bomb. The there were two parallel nuclear programs; the one under Diebner was run by the SS and another under Heisenburg run by Speer. Diebner was a party member, Heisenburg did not war to make a nuclear bomb.

 

[MaGZ]

So at best the claim would be 'Germany almost had the atomic bomb first'.

If you listened to the elderly lady in the documentary describe what she witnessed as a young girl, you would have to conclude the test was a successful detonation of an atomic bomb in March 1945.

 

[Rasmus]

If you listened to the elderly lady in the documentary describe what she witnessed as a young girl, you would have to conclude the test was a successful detonation of an atomic bomb in March 1945.

Did she have cancer?

 

[realpaladin]

If you listened to the elderly lady in the documentary describe what she witnessed as a young girl, you would have to conclude the test was a successful detonation of an atomic bomb in March 1945.

No, not really. I would have to conclude hat the young girl saw an explosion that was immensely powerful to her. That is what I would *have* to conclude.

And as there is no corroborating evidence (radiation, craters, paperwork, testimony) I *have* to conclude Germany did not have an Atomic Bomb.

Care to *prove* me wrong?

 

[Fnord]

If you listened to the elderly lady in the documentary describe what she witnessed as a young girl, you would have to conclude the test was a successful detonation of an atomic bomb in March 1945.

So, we are to take an alleged eye-witness account, 75 years after the alleged fact, of bright flash and loud noise during a time of war, and conclude from all that that the Nazis detonated an atomic bomb, even though there is no evidence of radioactive fallout, and that the alleged crater cited as 'evidence' could be more readily explained by gravel mining operations that occurred during the same time and in the same region.

More likely the old woman remembered an explosion from the use of dynamite, which actually was used in the area to loosen up the bedrock so that the gravel would be more easily extracted - gravel which would then have been trucked off to be used in construction of bunkers, gun emplacements, runways and tank traps.

It is also likely that she remembered accounts of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs and conflated all the events to form a false memory of an atomic explosion.

Thus, it is much more likely that the losers of WWII never had a working atomic bomb, and that all accounts to the contrary are merely anecdotal, and with only a peripheral basis in fact.

Occam's Razor strikes again!