Germany and Paris might ban Scientology

[joobz]

but they are still free to believe what they wish, and worship as they wish, the organisation is not the belief, the attempts to undermine parts of the German government were not acts of worship . No one is targeting the freezoners, they are targeting the activities of the Co$. Big difference.

When organisations get out of hand, they become banned, all western nations engage in this practise regardless of whether the organisation claims to be religious or not. That is not a suppression of the religion in and of itself.

What other banned organizations are you thinking of?
I agree that we should punish wrong actions. Is there evidence that it as the entire CO$ that was responisble? To ban a whole group because leaders are committing crimes is the wrong punishment.

 

[ravdin]

It isn't individual Scientologists that target critics by doing things like passing out anonymous flyers around their neighborhood that they're a child molestor, or killing their pets, or hitting them with multiple frivolous lawsuits at once, or tailing their cars as closely as possible everywhere they go with hired private investigators, or wiretapping federal agencies.......

Actually, these actions are carried out by individuals. They may be taking their marching orders from the organization. But as we all know, "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense in any kind of civilized society.

 

[Rasmus]

What other banned organizations are you thinking of?

In Germany, e.g., the NSDAP and any follow-up organisations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act
This might fit, but I am not certain. (The article on Mafia says that "The RICO Act of the 1960s made it a crime to belong to an organization that performed illegal acts,")


[quite]I agree that we should punish wrong actions. Is there evidence that it as the entire CO$ that was responisble? To ban a whole group because leaders are committing crimes is the wrong punishment.[/quote]


It's not the question of every individual being responsible. If the organisation exists or was created to carry out illegal activities, then the organisation can be targeted. That has nothing to do with individual members or their beliefs.

 

[joobz]

In Germany, e.g., the NSDAP and any follow-up organisations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act
This might fit, but I am not certain. (The article on Mafia says that "The RICO Act of the 1960s made it a crime to belong to an organization that performed illegal acts,")

Thank you for that. I was thinking mafia related criminal activity, but I couldn't figure out if any of the mafia related companies were shut down. I"ll do some more googling to find out.

Definitely, CO$ is a strange situation. Their successful growth makes it difficult to label cult (similar to Mormonism). Thier secrecy makes it even harder to trust, but other secret groups exist without much concern (e.g., fraternities, skull and bones, masons). Their actions toward political control make them dangerous, but this is really no different from other religions who seek political control. The only difference is that they are rising in modern times, where other cults become religions did it centuries ago.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

It's not just the silly stuff about Xenu, the body theatens, or the millions they've bilked out of the desperate and stupid. In the 70s they tried to infiltrate the U.S. government as a means to obtain their tax exempt status and try to dig up dirt on their critics. (i.e. Operation Snow White) They financially and personally destroy their detractors. (e.g. Operation Freakout and the Fair Game policy) They cover up the "mysterious deaths" of members who try to leave (e.g. Lisa McPherson).

Scientology is NOT a religion no matter what the doddering fools who run our government says. The Co$ is more than just a goofy UFO cult founded by a bad sci-fi writer. It's a criminal organization and there is only one thing a sane society does with criminal organizations...

You shut them down.

 

[Gazpacho]

Casting this as a question of individual choice ignores two things:

1. Scientology deliberately recruits among drug addicts, traumatized individuals, and the mentally ill. They have an entire mythology that plays directly to paranoid schizophrenics' delusions that psychiatrists are conspiring against them.

2. The church puts a lot of effort into managing the information available to members. Scientology is not a religion where you just come in on Sunday mornings and have the rest of the week for yourself. As people work their way up (not in the church hierarchy, but just in the doctrine), the church steadily demands more and more of their time, until they are hardly interacting with non-Scientologists at all. And when they do, it's only a robotic form of interaction that the church trains them in.

 

[Oliver]

What other banned organizations are you thinking of?
I agree that we should punish wrong actions. Is there evidence that it as the entire CO$ that was responisble? To ban a whole group because leaders are committing crimes is the wrong punishment.

The fictional "San Francisco Al Qaida Club" comes to my mind. It surely
would be the wrong punishment to ban a whole group because it's
ideology of their leaders ...

But kidding aside - you might get the Idea to keep an eye open about
Scientology. It's their commercial and exploiting aspects that don't
get much respect over here - and I agree with that while I don't
have a problem with a stupid religion believing in Science-Fiction from
a -surprise, surprise- Science Fiction author...

 

[CFLarsen]

Ignoring the fact that you're clearly being a bit cute

I am, ain't I? (insert Bambi eyes here)

, I'm fairly confident that most churches are run by people who by and large agree with the doctrines they teach. There might be a certain amount of obscurantist "Well, maybe this isn't entirely true, but whatever" but by and large I don't think it's some sort of elaborate con game.

How do you know Scientologists don't believe in Scientology?

If religion was just a boldfaced lie, I don't think it would've lasted this long. Scientology is a bit sketchier.

Scientology hasn't had time to make it more founded. Christianity today is the result of 2000 years of constant fine tuning.

 

[kmortis]

Scientology hasn't had time to make it more founded. Christianity today is the result of 2000 years of constant fine tuning.

Claus is right (I can't believe that I just typed that, I'm having a shower after this ). Christianity doesn't have a pretty past. What with the Crusades, the Evangelism-via-Sword and all that.

My point is that, yes, the CO$ has some vary ugly practices. The only way to get them to change those practices are to make them so expensive (in whatever currency they understand - cash, converts what have you) that they stop them. It will take time.

 

[joobz]

Claus is right (I can't believe that I just typed that, I'm having a shower after this ). Christianity doesn't have a pretty past. What with the Crusades, the Evangelism-via-Sword and all that.

My point is that, yes, the CO$ has some vary ugly practices. The only way to get them to change those practices are to make them so expensive (in whatever currency they understand - cash, converts what have you) that they stop them. It will take time.

Correct, Banning them will give CO$ a persecution complex, and they don't need any more tools to help them grow.

 

[Oliver]

Correct, Banning them will give CO$ a persecution complex, and they don't need any more tools to help them grow.

Who cares about the CO$'s complexes as long people are
getting protected from being exploited?

Personally I give a **** about what Scientology is whining
about since they fail to blame their former leaders for the
negative responses they get outside the US.

"Eigentor" (own goal)

 

[tkingdoll]

The Paris story is from 2002. If they were going to ban it, wouldn't they have done it by now?

 

[joobz]

Who cares about the CO$'s complexes as long people are
getting protected from being exploited?

I do, because the sense of persecution is a very powerful tool in motivating people and enhancing numbers.

BTW, define exploited?
Are troofers being exploited by the idiots who feed them crap?
Are christians exploited when they are expected to pay their tithe?

Personally I give a **** about what Scientology is whining
about since they fail to blame their former leaders for the
negative responses they get outside the US.

And this is different from other religions in what way?

 

[Oliver]

I do, because the sense of persecution is a very powerful tool in motivating people and enhancing numbers.

BTW, define exploited?
Are troofers being exploited by the idiots who feed them crap?
Are christians exploited when they are expected to pay their tithe?


And this is different from other religions in what way?

I don't know about the "tithe" - and I'm Christian as well. Over
here you pay taxes for a church if you're a believer. And then
there is the so called "kollekte" in which there is a bag going
around during the prayer - so you can spend voluntarily if
you like to. But the "tithe" isn't common over here from what
I know.

By exploited I meant that you actually have to pay money
to get enlightened -aka: dubious pseudo-science using the
E-meter. That's a hoax for itself. But maybe the German
Government simply is more skeptical than some other countries?

Anyway: We certainly know about Xenu, E-Meter, disconnection
policies, Fair Game, public service, Neurolinguistic Programming,
business, whining about copyrights, attacking opponents and
on and on and on. Let them complain - the German citizens don't
care that much about that anyway...

They had their chance and failed to make "a good impression":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Controversy_and_criticism

 

[kmortis]

The Paris story is from 2002. If they were going to ban it, wouldn't they have done it by now?

It's France. There's no rush.

Now, call a bottle of sparkling wine "Champagne" and they'll fall on you like a ton of foetid grapes.

 

[joobz]

I don't know about the "tithe" - and I'm Christian as well. Over here you pay taxes for a church if you're a believer.

A tithe is a tax payed to the church.
And then
there is the so called "kollekte" in which there is a bag going
around during the prayer - so you can spend voluntarily if
you like to. But the "tithe" isn't common over here from what
I know.[/quote]Tithe is 10% of your income to the church. It's either a tax(which you have) or voluntary (Which you also have). By the way, voluntary payments to the church aren't really voluntary. Peer pressure placed upon public collections are very real and people will feel very much required to pay them.

Also, in the catholic church and greek church in the U.S., you receive an annual bunch of cards with a "suggested" payment schedule based upon your salary.

As for your tax scheme, do you send a thing to the government what church gets your taxes? If so, it would seem that other churches would have a reason for not wanting CO$ to be recognized in Germany. WHo wants competition for money?

By exploited I meant that you actually have to pay money
to get enlightened -aka: dubious pseudo-science using the
E-meter. That's a hoax for itself. But maybe the German
Government simply is more skeptical than some other countries?

The catholic church was doing similar things way back when. Consider the indulgences and being able to pay your way into heaven. Not a bad racket. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

In any way, why is it so bad to charge for religion? It seems CO$ is the perfect church for materialistic people. It's a designer faith. Sure it costs more, but the status is involved. We don't get mad at Prada for charging $5000 for a purse that cost $50 to make.

People who seek status symbols, will pay for thier appearances. Seems like a custom religion catering to this need is a very logical extension of that part of society.

Anyway: We certainly know about Xenu, E-Meter, disconnection
policies, Fair Game, public service, Neurolinguistic Programming,
business, whining about copyrights, attacking opponents and
on and on and on. Let them complain - the German citizens don't
care that much about that anyway...

They had their chance and failed to make "a good impression":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology#Controversy_and_criticism

They are definitely goofy.

 

[Oliver]

A tithe is a tax payed to the church.
And then
there is the so called "kollekte" in which there is a bag going
around during the prayer - so you can spend voluntarily if
you like to. But the "tithe" isn't common over here from what
I know.

Tithe is 10% of your income to the church. It's either a tax(which you have) or voluntary (Which you also have). By the way, voluntary payments to the church aren't really voluntary. Peer pressure placed upon public collections are very real and people will feel very much required to pay them.

Also, in the catholic church and greek church in the U.S., you receive an annual bunch of cards with a "suggested" payment schedule based upon your salary.

As for your tax scheme, do you send a thing to the government what church gets your taxes? If so, it would seem that other churches would have a reason for not wanting CO$ to be recognized in Germany. WHo wants competition for money?

The catholic church was doing similar things way back when. Consider the indulgences and being able to pay your way into heaven. Not a bad racket. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

In any way, why is it so bad to charge for religion? It seems CO$ is the perfect church for materialistic people. It's a designer faith. Sure it costs more, but the status is involved. We don't get mad at Prada for charging $5000 for a purse that cost $50 to make.

People who seek status symbols, will pay for thier appearances. Seems like a custom religion catering to this need is a very logical extension of that part of society.


They are definitely goofy.

From my experience most parties give a *censored* about
religion itself - in comparison to the "Bible Belt". So the idea
that "scientology oppression" is about religion, is a joke to me.

The accusations are quite factual and you can review them
here:

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/info/archives/background/scientology.html


I know about all the bad things the Christians did and in my
opinion religion should be forbidden by law because of it's
history. But anyway - a German called "Martin Luther" got
rid of the indulgences some hundred years ago - so it isn't
really an argument nowadays...

Concerning prices: Yes, it is completely legitim to raise whatever
prices you like in a free market. But this isn't the case concerning
people who believe in false promises. It's called fraud over here,
so if the Chrisitan Church say's you have to pay 100 bucks to
go to a prayer, the people and therefore the Government will
ask: "Why?"

And I know that the US-System of "Freedom of religion" fails to
ask "Why?". That's absolutely clear to me.

 

[CFLarsen]

It's France. There's no rush.

Now, call a bottle of sparkling wine "Champagne" and they'll fall on you like a ton of foetid grapes.

You want to try opening a burger joint and call your burgers "BigMac"?

 

[Wildy]

In a way Oliver beat me to it, but I still want to link to Operation Foot Bullet which has the thing about the labour courts in it.

Correct, Banning them will give CO$ a persecution complex, and they don't need any more tools to help them grow.

I thought they already had such a complex. Considering how aggressive they are in dealing with critics and their views of criticism.

 

[tkingdoll]

You want to try opening a burger joint and call your burgers "BigMac"?

Slight derail so I don't expect a response, but I just wanted to relate the story of the UK fish and chip chain, Harry Ramsden. They successfully sued a Muslim businessman who named his restaurant Harry Ramadan.

Still makes me laugh!

As for Scientology, the trouble with judging it by a different standard than other religions is that I suspect if you dig deep enough, those other religions are guilty of many of the same things. Tithing is a mandatory requirement of Islam, for example. And the Catholic church has covered up more pedophile priest cases than I care to think about.