German banker sacked for comments about Jews

[Elind]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/german-banker-sacked-for-making-jewish-gene-remark-threatens-litigation-1.312168

This guy apparently suggested Jews have a common genetic marker and got fired for saying it. This is true for many Jews and my wife did her Genographics genetic testing and found she had a marker shared by over 30% of Ashkenazim Jews, which she thought was cool (she is not Jewish).

By itself, is there anything offensive in this statement, or are people reading between the lines?

 

[WildCat]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/interna...ish-gene-remark-threatens-litigation-1.312168

This guy apparently suggested Jews have a common genetic marker and got fired for saying it. This is true for many Jews and my wife did her Genographics genetic testing and found she had a marker shared by over 30% of Ashkenazim Jews, which she thought was cool (she is not Jewish).

By itself, is there anything offensive in this statement, or are people reading between the lines?

There is a genetic basis to being Jewish, according to this study:

Principal component and structure-like analyses identify previously unrecognized genetic substructure within the Middle East. Most Jewish samples form a remarkably tight subcluster that overlies Druze and Cypriot samples but not samples from other Levantine populations or paired Diaspora host populations. In contrast, Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel) and Indian Jews (Bene Israel and Cochini) cluster with neighbouring autochthonous populations in Ethiopia and western India, respectively, despite a clear paternal link between the Bene Israel and the Levant. These results cast light on the variegated genetic architecture of the Middle East, and trace the origins of most Jewish Diaspora communities to the Levant.

 

[Slayhamlet]

His controversial statements (and a new book, I believe) about Muslim immigrants undermining German society have also been getting a lot of press lately, and while a certain amount of reading between the lines may be affecting people's interpretation of his most recent statement about Jews, he really brought it on himself. This isn't just an isolated case of him misspeaking, in other words.

And he didn't just say that most Jews have, to some degree, a common genetic background. He said that all Jews share a gene that sets them apart from others. It was not an (exclusively) anti-Semitic comment, though, as he mentioned Basques together with Jews in the same sentence. But it has been interpreted, in the context that it was spoken, as promoting racialist ideas, i.e. that there are significant differences between races and ethnic groups.

 

[Lamafarmer]

By itself, is there anything offensive in this statement, or are people reading between the lines?

Let's just say we Germans have had a bad experience with that whole genetics stuff. He didn't get fired for only his remarks about the genetics, which as far as I know had nothing to do with the book but were rather made as a response to the goading of a newspaper interviewer, but for the whole mix of remarks the bank is not too fond of.

 

[dudalb]

Yeah, looks as if this was case that the guys comments on Jews was the straw that broke the Camel's back.

 

[Thunder]

Jewish genetic markers are a common accusation of geneticists in Israel and the USA.

the guy probably reads the Jerusalem Post.

 

[Skeptic]

What a surprise -- someone makes this minor incident into an accusation of "racism" about an Israeli newspaper he dislikes.

Anyway, I agree with dudlab: the statement itself is not necessarily racist -- but is a case of "there he goes publicly making statements about minorities in Germany again after we told him to cut it out".

 

[bit_pattern]

What a surprise -- someone makes this minor incident into an accusation of "racism" about an Israeli newspaper he dislikes.

What is the nature of the comment that is causing a stir in Germany? Here is a quote from Sarrazin's interview with the paper, Welt am Sonntag: "All Jews share a particular gene that makes them different from other peoples."

A Jewish gene? It is unbelievable that race theory continues to hold sway in Germany.

Now read the following pearl: "A convert, if he converts through the Orthodox, he has the Jewish gene. If he doesn't convert through the Orthodox, he doesn't have the Jewish gene. As simple as that." This quote is taken from an interview the interior minister of the Jewish State and the Shas party leader, Eli Yishai, gave to the editor of The Jerusalem Post, David Horovitz (August 8, 2010 ).

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...es-in-germany-go-unnoticed-in-israel-1.311182

 

[Skeptic]

Imagine that someone claimed that Icelanders are a distinct race due to their special genetics, and the Icelandic minister of immigration said in reply: "as far as I'm concerned, the moment someone fills in the citizenship papers, he has the Icelandic genes."

Would that be seem by you as a claim that the Icelandic minister of immigration is both a racist and a biological ignoramus? No, it would be seen by you, correctly, as the Icelandic minister denying that being Icelandic is a matter of genes.

This is exactly what Yishai has said. He claims that as far as he is concerned someone who is an orthodox convert to Judaism has the "Jewish genes." This doesn't mean he thinks Judaism is determined by genes and that genes magically (and literally) change when one converts, but precisely that he thinks Judaism is not determined by genes.

But then again, the only person in Israel "outraged" by Yishai's statements seems to be "a biologist and Machsom Watch" activist, in short a left-wing loony. No wonder you support him. Ha'aretz is up to their usual standard of accurate reporting, I see.

You guys never stop trying to turn anything into some sort of "evil Israeli racism" story, no matter how illogical the accusation, now do you.

 

[bit_pattern]

Imagine that someone claimed that Icelanders are a distinct race due to their special genetics, and the Icelandic minister of immigration said in reply: "as far as I'm concerned, the moment someone fills in the citizenship papers, he has the Icelandic genes."

Would that be seem by you as a claim that the Icelandic minister of immigration is both a racist and a biological ignoramus? No, it would be seen by you, correctly, as the Icelandic minister denying that being Icelandic is a matter of genes.

Maybe in Bizzro world that you seem to occupy!

And, if Iceland had a history of mass emigration, where the issue of genes and religion were paramount in making the decision who could and couldn't come to the country, and if the immigration Minister was declaring that there are two immigration papers and only one of which give you Icelandic genes then you MIGHT have a point, but even then it would be stretching it to the point of absurdity.

 

[quixotecoyote]

deleted

 

[Lamafarmer]

The interesting part about this will be how it plays out with our president, who has to axe the position Sarazzin holds, which has never happened so far. Sarazzin said he is going to court over this if he gets axed and that the law is on his side.

 

[Skeptic]

Maybe in Bizzro world that you seem to occupy!

Oh, please.

Your argument amounts to:

You: "Can you believe it? Israeli minister says Judaism is determined by special Jewish genes! Israel is racist and evil!"

Me: "No he didn't. He meant precisely the opposite -- that any convert is just as Jewish as any other Jew, and the genes don't matter."

You: "Doesn't matter. Israel is evil and racist anyway!"

Just admit you made a stupid mistake, for once in your life. Yishai clearly meant precisely the opposite of what you claim he did, so you must resort to the usual all-purpose ignorant and wrong "Israel-is-evil" boiler plate to try and cover up.

 

[bit_pattern]

LOL, no, saying that people who become citizens via Orthodox have Jewish genes while people who don't become citizens via Orthodox aren't is the EXACT opposite of what you are saying it is.

Just admit you made a stupid mistake, for once in your life.

LMAO, that's rich coming from you, of all people!

 

[Thunder]

The German banker said that when someone converts to Judaism under Orthodox rules, they somehow acquire the "Jewish gene".

I'd like to see a scientific explenation for this one.

and for that matter, all this damn Jewish genetic research, searching for the "pure" Jews, is disgusting and needs to stop.

what will the result of all this be? will Israel start doing genetic tests to see if you have the Levite or Cohan haplotype..so decide if you can make aliyah?

if I don't have this gene, am I not a truly Levite? not a true Jew?

dusgusting.

 

[Lamafarmer]

The German banker said that when someone converts to Judaism under Orthodox rules, they somehow acquire the "Jewish gene".

I'd like to see a scientific explenation for this one.

I'd rather make sure he said that in the first place, which I am pretty sure he didn't.

 

[Beerina]

His controversial statements (and a new book, I believe) about Muslim immigrants undermining German society have also been getting a lot of press lately, and while a certain amount of reading between the lines may be affecting people's interpretation of his most recent statement about Jews, he really brought it on himself. This isn't just an isolated case of him misspeaking, in other words.

I.e. context is everything. What drives a lot of peoples' suspicions about the Holocaust isn't a love of the search for truth.

 

[DreadNiK]

LOL, no, saying that people who become citizens via Orthodox have Jewish genes while people who don't become citizens via Orthodox aren't is the EXACT opposite of what you are saying it is.



LMAO, that's rich coming from you, of all people!

From reading this exchange I see two possibilities:

1. The guy in the quote wasn't using 'gene' the way you think he was and Skeptic's Iceland analogy is totally apt.

2. The guy in the quote believes that you can 'acquire' genes through a process other than conception/birth (i.e. religious ritual/conversion)


I think 1 is a lot more likely. Please can you provide the original source of the quote so we can see the context?

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eli_Yishai&diff=next&oldid=380469487

 

[bit_pattern]

From reading this exchange I see two possibilities:

1. The guy in the quote wasn't using 'gene' the way you think he was and Skeptic's Iceland analogy is totally apt.

2. The guy in the quote believes that you can 'acquire' genes through a process other than conception/birth (i.e. religious ritual/conversion)


I think 1 is a lot more likely. Please can you provide the original source of the quote so we can see the context?

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eli_Yishai&diff=next&oldid=380469487

I dunno, I thought it was pretty straight forward myself; ie. an Orthodox convert is more "Jewish" than a non-Orthodox convert. I don't know how you can read it any other way.

 

[nene]

Honestly from my position here in Berlin, the whole Jews argument doesn't get as much publicity here as other statements made by Mr. Sarrazin. He made some very controversial statements about immigrants, mostly about the Muslim immigrants. He implies an evil conspiracy to undermine the German culture and establish a Muslim country.

And while there were comments to the whole Jews and genes nonsense they all seem to be univerially clears about this being BS.

He is a director of the Federal Bank, so not just any banker, and so far he hasn't been fired, but a decision is expected today. His party the Social Democrates are trying to get him out of the party, too. So far in both cases the argumentation was that his theories are too controversial, his tone inappropiate and as a representative of the FRG he should have excised more diplomacy. A big problem is also that all those racists and Neo-Nazis are now openly applauding him, and that's what no one likes to see.

He used to be in the local Berlin government and there made almost the same comments but not just about immigrants but also about welfare recipiants. When he changed to the Federal bank last year, it was kind of strange because many saw this kind of thing that happens now as inevidently.

While I think that there are some problems with integration of immigrants, I find his comments highly inappropriate.