General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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mortimer said:
Except that you believe that Hamas are freedom fighters. And Hamas wants to kill Jews. How do you reconcile that position with your other position that you don't support the killing of anyone?
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It's all so simple isn't it?

Just boil it down to a few casually assumed premises and boom: your opponent supports <insert favourite evil person/group> here.


Gimme a break. Are people in this thread seriously accusing bikerdruid of consciously wanting to kill jews - or ANYONE?

Or is he just a fool who doesn't know he wants to kill jews?

Which is it?
 
Praktik said:
Gimme a break. Are people in this thread seriously accusing bikerdruid of consciously wanting to kill jews - or ANYONE?

Or is he just a fool who doesn't know he wants to kill jews?

Which is it?
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I asked him if he would vote for a political party that had genocidal anti-semitism as one of its planks if he liked their other policies and he said he "didn't know".

I sure as hell know whether or not I'd vote for them, and I wouldn't. Even if they ran against a Palin-Bachmann ticket.
 
WildCat said:
I asked him if he would vote for a political party that had genocidal anti-semitism as one of its planks if he liked their other policies and he said he "didn't know".

I sure as hell know whether or not I'd vote for them, and I wouldn't. Even if they ran against a Palin-Bachmann ticket.
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Case closed then.

Why do you continue to engage with someone who loves murder?

And seeing how he's a hopeless evil loving murderer-supporting bastard, what do you think telling him as much would accomplish?

"Oh geez, I support killing jews? Maybe I should change my ways..."

Or are you guys just back-slapping and posturing, instead of engaging in good faith with someone who sees the world in different terms than you and your noble compatriots in arms?
 
Praktik said:
Case closed then.

Why do you continue to engage with someone who loves murder?

And seeing how he's a hopeless evil loving murderer-supporting bastard, what do you think telling him as much would accomplish?

"Oh geez, I support killing jews? Maybe I should change my ways..."

Or are you guys just back-slapping and posturing, instead of engaging in good faith with someone who sees the world in different terms than you and your noble compatriots in arms?
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So someone who would consider enabling genocide in return for enacting other policies he likes is just "seeing the world in different terms"?

Is that what you think of people who support David Duke? And Duke doesn't even openly advocate genocide!
 
mortimer said:
This is rich, coming from someone who believes the PLO charter was revised because the PLO said they'd revise it, even though no link to the revised charter exists.
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new term introduced "revised"....If you are talking about the PLO charter and its ammending....well, I accept it was ammended and so did the US and even the Israeli government did too.....against that we have the semantic based resistance of some guys on the internet......
rich indeed.

but hey....its probably time for a new PLO charter whine, its been a couple of weeks now.

Mortimer....someone has said there is a new Likud platform. That the old one is changed. Before I comment on it I would at least like to see the new one or the statement that its been changed....I won't whine that the old one has not been redrafted and ignore the statement from likud that its been changed...I won't make the laughable claim that I know better then they do if they have changed thier platform. Do you agree thats appropriate?


anyone got a link?
 
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Virus said:
That review completely ignores the context that Palestine was controlled and administered by the British, not the Arabs. The whole region was being reshaped after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.
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Quite. Which is where self determination comes into it. The British put up a puppet for Jordan, and one for Syria. The Sryians wouldn't accept him, so the British put him in charge of Iraq instead. "Reshaping" from above, not self determination from those on the ground. The "reshaping" of Ireland was a complete mess as well.
 
a_unique_person said:
Quite. Which is where self determination comes into it. The British put up a puppet for Jordan, and one for Syria. The Sryians wouldn't accept him, so the British put him in charge of Iraq instead. "Reshaping" from above, not self determination from those on the ground. The "reshaping" of Ireland was a complete mess as well.
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Could have had all the self-determination they wanted by accepting the UN partition plan. They made a different choice: Kill the Jews.

They could have had it when they were offered it all the other times. They chose to kill the Jews.

Every time they tried to kill the Jews, they lost and their defeat was a "humiliation", a stain on their honour which could only be washed away by killing the Jews.

They could have it if they came clean, admitted they ****-ed up, dropped the Nazi propaganda, learned to govern themselves without AK-47's and settled on a border.

Not like it's impossible, if Israel and Germany can patch things up anyone can. Even the Saudis are talking to Israel.
 
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Virus said:
Could have had all the self-determination they wanted by accepting the UN partition plan. They made a different choice: Kill the Jews.

They could have had it when they were offered it all the other times. They chose to kill the Jews.

Every time they tried to kill the Jews, they lost and their defeat was a "humiliation", a stain on their honour which could only be washed away by killing the Jews.

They could have it if they came clean, admitted they ****-ed up, dropped the Nazi propaganda, learned to govern themselves without AK-47's and settled on a border.

Not like it's impossible, if Israel and Germany can patch things up anyone can. Even the Saudis are talking to Israel.
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I don't see how the UN telling them what their land was is an example self determination.
 
Good one!

Now I support David Duke!

Fun game!

Who else can you contrive me to support who is evil?
 
a_unique_person said:
I don't see how the UN telling them what their land was is an example self determination.
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Don't play dumb. You know very well what a proposal is. The proposal was to divide the land and share holy sites. They thought it was pointless to agree to that when they could just kill the Jews and take it all.
 
I'll give you guys your out right now:

None of you guys actually think that bikerdruid likes it when innocents are killed, or that this white western dude who probably wouldn't hurt a cat is beholden to some violent ideology.

The reason why I think that is because it seems to me the goal is to reformulate your opponent's words such that you can frame their position as supportive of an entity that you classify as 100% pure evil, with the hope that this shames them into agreeing with you. This requires that you believe some vestige of humanity remains in us that you can leverage to bring us back into the light and the noble goodness you swaddle yourselves with.

This, to me, seems like the more reasonable interpretation of these types of posts. Note Wildcat, your ridiculous mentioning of David Duke.

Wasn't the hope there that I would think, "OMG you're right! There's no way I want to be associated with David Duke so I concede!"

Of course for that to occur we'd need to be in accordance on all the simplified premises that makeup your Bludgeon of Shame... but I'm not, so this rhetorical technique fails on me.

But even if you don't shame people to your side with this bullying tactic, you can at least feel like you inhabit a rarefied moral pedestal, and your opponent (at the very least) can be seen as the victim of a moral confusion so deep that even they don't know how their words could be construed as support for Evil People. You might get some allies to backslap you on how well you were able to beat people with your bludgeon of shame.

But for the rest of us, it just comes across as a cheap, tawdry rhetorical tactic that essentially destroys any potential for a fruitful exchange of ideas in good faith.

And there's no wonder why so many threads on these topics degrade to such infantile lows with this type of approach wielded so often.
 
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Praktik said:
Good one!

Now I support David Duke!
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How on earth did you take that away from my post? Try reading it again, with comprehension this time.

Praktik said:
Fun game!

Who else can you contrive me to support who is evil?
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It's not a game Praktik. What do you think of David Duke supporters? Do you think they are just "seeing the world in different terms"?
 
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bikerdruid said:
i do not support the killing of jews, or anyone for that matter.
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No, you just support the people (Hamas) who do support the killing of Jews and are doing their level best to carry it out. It's like saying you don't condone racism but do support the Ku Klux Klan.

You also "don't know" if you'd support a party of genocidal anti-semites in Canada if you liked their other policies.
 
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Praktik said:
None of you guys actually think that bikerdruid likes it when innocents are killed, or that this white western dude who probably wouldn't hurt a cat is beholden to some violent ideology.
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To me bikerdruid seems coldly indifferent to innocents being killed, even a genocide, if the result is to his liking politically.

Praktik said:
The reason why I think that is because it seems to me the goal is to reformulate your opponent's words such that you can frame their position as supportive of an entity that you classify as 100% pure evil, with the hope that this shames them into agreeing with you.
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You can try to rationalize it all you'd like, but the fact remains he supports a party of raging genocidal anti-semites.

Maybe I just don't "see the world differently" but from where I sit "supports genocide" as a final soloution to a political problem eliminates that political party from ever having my support and in fact I will give it only the scorn it deserves. No matter how much I liked the other planks on thier platform.
 
Praktik said:
It's all so simple isn't it?

Just boil it down to a few casually assumed premises and boom: your opponent supports <insert favourite evil person/group> here.


Gimme a break. Are people in this thread seriously accusing bikerdruid of consciously wanting to kill jews - or ANYONE?

Or is he just a fool who doesn't know he wants to kill jews?

Which is it?
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That's a great strawman and false dichotomy all wrapped up in one post.

Why not let Bikerdruid answer for himself? All I asked him was how he reconciles his position of not wanting to kill anyone and his support of Hamas. Is that such a ridiculous question to ask?
 
Praktik said:
Ridiculous.
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Why are you having so much trouble answering the question Praktik?

Do you have negative feelings for David Duke supporters, or do you just think they are "seeing the world in different terms"? Personally, I think they're racist douchebags who deserve nothing but scorn. I suspect you feel the same way, but realize you'll look like a complete hypocrite if you say so.
 
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