General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Giz]

Or, "married to another man" could refer to the Ottoman Empire which, y'know, owned the land at the time... as there wasn't any palestinian political entity.

 

[WildCat]

ok agreed, now what do we do with them?

We make it clear that they'll have to act like civilised human beings if they ever are to get their own state. Mainly, this means recogntion of Israel's right to exist and the end of government-sponsored terrorism.

 

[WildCat]

Or, "married to another man" could refer to the Ottoman Empire which, y'know, owned the land at the time... as there wasn't any palestinian political entity.

I agree with this, what the hell makes the author assert what he does?

 

[mortimer]

Israel is working in the UN to ensure that if they do that, they won't be recognised by a lot more than just Israel. Did you read the very first link I provided? Also, according to the charter of Likud, the party in power, "Declaration of a State A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."


What "stringent" means is not made clear, but it doesn't amount to "soft" or "nothing".

Likud is not the party in power. The PM is from the Likud party, but they hold less than 25% of the seats in the Knesset. So it's not like any Likud platform policy would automatically be enforced.

I encourage the Palestinians to unilaterally declare a state. Nothing much will change, but they will have the added responsibilities that come with statehood.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

Israel is working in the UN to ensure that if they do that, they won't be recognised by a lot more than just Israel. Did you read the very first link I provided? Also, according to the charter of Likud, the party in power, "Declaration of a State A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration."


What "stringent" means is not made clear, but it doesn't amount to "soft" or "nothing".

Did you see where I posted the text from your link that you left out which showed the opposite to be true? And how does a state get recognized less? They are either seen as a state or not. Do you have a ranking of countries by how much they are recognized as a state? How does it work? By percentage? What percentage of a state is the US recognized as verse China?

So next time you quote a charter, perhaps you should not use the version from 1999 and instead use the version from 2008? I think that *might* be a bit more honest don't you think?

 

[Virus]

Not rationally explicable, repeated over time. I have not dismissed what Palestinians say, I'm saying many people have said similar things over time, and that clashes between cultures over a piece of land can continue over centuries. The Zionists knew that when they arrived to create a new Israel. That was why they had an airforce ready to go when they declared independence.
.

That review completely ignores the context that Palestine was controlled and administered by the British, not the Arabs. The whole region was being reshaped after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Oh please, when you elect a genocidal internationally recognized terrorist group as your government there will be consequences. Especially one that is at war with a neighboring state. And this was known and talked about prior to Hamas being elected.

The people of Gaza cannot elect such a group and then cry about the consequences of their actions. And IMHO people in a democracy share far more of the blame for putting a froup like Hamas in power than the people of a repressive dictatorship have for their government. How many flotillas are heading to N. Korea, where there's actually starvation occurring? I'm guessing none. And good luck finding anyone accusing the rest of the world for "collective punishment" (a term that is so far removed from its original meaning wrt war as to be unrecognizable) of N. Korea or Iran or other rogue nations.

And yet Israel, alone among any nation ever in history, is supposed to allow the free flow of goods to a country whose government is at war with it.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

You do make a good point in regards to collective punishment for North Korea and Iran, and it is not as if the Israelis, or the UN, or anyone else made the Palestinians form groups that called for the destruction of Israel. They did that to themselves.

Still, when the elections were held, they were screwed no matter who they voted for.


So now that they are in that crappy situation, something needs to be done. The current situation in Gaza and the West Bank is not good for the Palestinians, or the Israelis, or the rest of the world (besides maybe Iran who is using the conflict and the pain, death, and suffering for their own political gain).

I say we should get Jordan in to help support a new independent Palestinian State, and then we can have more leverage to start holding the Palestinians more accountable for their own actions.

 

[portlandatheist]

Nobody is stopping humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza through legitimate and legal methods, this is a direct confrontation of Israel's military in defiance of the law. There are better avenues to protest the blockade than violent confrontation. I hope the protesters are not as successful as they were last time in reaching their stated goal of martyrdom. It was a difficult challenge for them last time as they had to beat, stab, and abduct quite a few soldiers before accomplishing their objective.

 

[The Fool]

We make it clear that they'll have to act like civilised human beings if they ever are to get their own state. Mainly, this means recogntion of Israel's right to exist and the end of government-sponsored terrorism.

yes this is all nice motherhood and apple pie statements.

some problems...

who "makes it clear to them" The UN? Israel? who delivers your ultimatum?

what is "act like civilised human beings" add up to....what is the pass mark and who judges if it has been met or not?

As for the right to exist thing. I notice you have not added the extras that Israel add.....right to exist and be recognized as.....etc etc. I don't think your simple "right to exist" would be acceptable to Israel.

once again, who determins if they have passed the test?

see, you have to actually have a process rather than a pile of motherhood statements....otherwise your effective response is simply saying do nothing....indefinitely.

 

[The Fool]

but they will have the added responsibilities that come with statehood.

and the advantages? will they have the advantages too?

Do you seriously believe that if they unilaterally declare then Israel is going to leave quietly?
You think the threats outlined in the Likud Charter are just bluster? I know you talk down the position of Likud in Israel (even though they are the controlling power in the coalition (thats why Netenyahu is the boss)..

 

[Jonnyclueless]

The threats in the Likud charter? The one from over a decade ago which has since been changed? And I guess we're back to the argument that so long as Israel is disputing some of the land that the Palestinians are also disputing, then a magical force prevents them from declaring a state.

 

[mortimer]

and the advantages? will they have the advantages too?

You mean like controlling their airspace, etc? Probably not, until they can prove they are capable of doing so without endangering their neighbors.

Do you seriously believe that if they unilaterally declare then Israel is going to leave quietly?

I never made that claim. Seriously.

You think the threats outlined in the Likud Charter are just bluster?

Nor did I make this claim. Any position in the Likud charter that Bibi wants to put forward for implementation would require the Knesset to approve. And Likud doesn't even hold a plurality of seats.

I know you talk down the position of Likud in Israel (even though they are the controlling power in the coalition (thats why Netenyahu is the boss)..

I live in the U.S. We don't have coalition parliamentary governments like Israel (or Australia), so I would suppose there are others who have a better understanding of how things work. But my understanding is that, although Bibi is the PM, and his party has a large number of seats in the Knesset, it would still require approval of the Knesset (in which Likud holds less than 25% of the seats) to be implemented. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[WildCat]

yes this is all nice motherhood and apple pie statements.

some problems...

who "makes it clear to them" The UN? Israel? who delivers your ultimatum?

I speak only for what I think the USA and Israel should do. Neither should recognize a PA state that does not explicitly affirm Israel's right to exist and disavows armed action against it. And they have to actually agree to this publicly, on a document all can see.

what is "act like civilised human beings" add up to....what is the pass mark and who judges if it has been met or not?

You know, not attack Israel and not allow others in your country to attack Israel. Live in peace with your neighbors. Basic civilization stuff.

As for the right to exist thing. I notice you have not added the extras that Israel add.....right to exist and be recognized as.....etc etc. I don't think your simple "right to exist" would be acceptable to Israel.

The PA will have to recognize that Israel is and will be a sanctuary for the Jewish diaspora, and the bazillions of "refugees" will just have to either move to Palestine or become citizens of the countries they've lived in the last 4 generations.

once again, who determins if they have passed the test?

Whichever government body has that power in their respective countries. This question really befuddled you?

see, you have to actually have a process rather than a pile of motherhood statements....otherwise your effective response is simply saying do nothing....indefinitely.

I don't think you're following along with the conversation.

 

[The Fool]

The threats in the Likud charter? The one from over a decade ago which has since been changed? And I guess we're back to the argument that so long as Israel is disputing some of the land that the Palestinians are also disputing, then a magical force prevents them from declaring a state.

I'm interested to read the new one....can you provide a link to the new Likud platform?

 

[Virus]

I think Mortimer is right with the responsibility angle. Palestinians never take responsibility for themselves. I reckon it's a bluff and they won't really do it. Just more theatrics.

 

[Skeptic]

Nor did I make this claim. Any position in the Likud charter that Bibi wants to put forward for implementation would require the Knesset to approve. And Likud doesn't even hold a plurality of seats.

Yup.

 

[Skeptic]

What would you say of someone who opened a mega shopping mall in your neck of the woods, BD?

It depends. First of all he would have to know if they are also supporting the holy cause of killing Jews. If so, they are "pretty good administrators" and "freedom fighters". If not, they are evil capitalist exploiters of the workers.

 

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by theprestige
What would you say of someone who opened a mega shopping mall in your neck of the woods, BD?

i'd say they'd go broke.
there aren't 100,000 people within a two hundred radius of where i live, and 60,000 of those live in a small city 100 miles away.
there is a mall there, btw.....very nice.

It depends. First of all he would have to know if they are also supporting the holy cause of killing Jews. If so, they are "pretty good administrators" and "freedom fighters". If not, they are evil capitalist exploiters of the workers.

truly an epic fail.
i had already answered the question.
and your continual accusations that i support the holy cause of killing Jews, are beginning to border on slander.
you really need to find some class.

your credibility has crashed to all-time lows lately. your claims, as illustrated in your post, become more outlandish and your back-up non-existent.

i do not support the killing of jews, or anyone for that matter.

 

[mortimer]

I'm interested to read the new one....can you provide a link to the new Likud platform?

This is rich, coming from someone who believes the PLO charter was revised because the PLO said they'd revise it, even though no link to the revised charter exists.

 

[mortimer]

i do not support the killing of jews, or anyone for that matter.

Except that you believe that Hamas are freedom fighters. And Hamas wants to kill Jews. How do you reconcile that position with your other position that you don't support the killing of anyone?