General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

Because it is the state established by, and for, the Jewish people, in their historic homeland. Much like France was established by, and for, the French people in their historic homeland.

and yet, Israel has all sorts of BS rules as to who is a Jew and who is not a Jew....who can become a Jew and who can't become a Jew.

They also allow in folks who are clearly not Jews...under a law meant to protect Jews.

so, contrary to France, Israel is not really the a homeland for Jews. Its a state for folks who Israel wants to be become citizens and stay citizens, whether they are Jews or not.

 

[angrysoba]

They also allow in folks who are clearly not Jews...under a law meant to protect Jews.

so, contrary to France, Israel is not really the a homeland for Jews. Its a state for folks who Israel wants to be become citizens and stay citizens, whether they are Jews or not.

bolding mine

What will you find to condemn Israel for next?

Now you're getting all hot and bothered because Israel let in non-Jews?

Heavens, no!

 

[Thunder]

What will you find to condemn Israel for next?

I am not the subject of the thread, now am I?

if my criticisms of Israel bothers you, you are free to put me on ignore.


..now, what I was talking about, is that Israel claims that the discriminatory Law of Return is there to supposedly protect JEWS, meanwhile in reality it has all sorts of BS rules as to who is and who is not a Jew, which Orthodox conversions are legitimate, and lets clearly non-Jewish people immigrate under the Law of Return.

clearly, the Law of Return is less about helping Jews than it is about politics and control.

 

[Thunder]

Oh, and by the way, for all those Neo-Zionists who enjoy complaining about how the world is soooo unfair to Israel and treats Israel different than anyone else, well put this into perspective:

NATO and other nations are now bombing Libyan military installations and machinery.

France and other states are now bombing forces in the Ivory Coast.

meanwhile, there has NEVER been any military action by NATO, the UN, etc...to respond to Israel's attacks upon Palestinians.

so how does this make your claims of unfair treatment look? its makes them look very silly & a bit pathetic.

next time, think about Libya..or Serbia..or Ivory Coast...before you accuse the world of being mean to wittle Israel.

 

[Skeptic]

bolding mine

What will you find to condemn Israel for next?

Now you're getting all hot and bothered because Israel let in non-Jews?

Heavens, no!

For some folks here, if Israel did not allow non-Jewish citizens, it would have been evil and racist and therefore illegitimate. Now that it does allow non-Jewish citizens, it is therefore not really the Jewish state, and therefore is also illegitimate...

It's a bit like some other poster here who recently claimed that Judaism is a religion, not an ethnic group, therefore Israel is a "theocracy". But then he wanted to blame Israel for something else -- allowing religious communities to choose members based on their religion -- so suddenly that very same poster declared that of course Judaism is an ethnic group, not a religion, after all, so that allowing Jew-only neighborhoods is just like allowing White-only neighborhoods.

The only consistency in all these accusations is the conclusion: Israel is evil and illegitimate. The exact reason why changes with the seasons, or the opportunity.

 

[Skeptic]

Let's change gear a bit.

What do the residents think of this article?

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/47451/killing-children-and-peace

Harrumph!

But if you were the kind of Israeli who believes that keeping Gaza separate means the possibility of a successful annexation of the West Bank, then you might insist on Abbas not entering any dialogue with Hamas. And this, Netanyahu has done.

Did it occur to the writer that perhaps the reason Netanyahu doesn't want the PA to enter a "dialogue with Hamas" is that Hamas is an openly genocidal Islamist terrorist organization?

Imagine if the NAACP wanted to address the ex-president Bush about certain greivances, and his reply was: "look, before I negotiate with you guys about race relations, I must do the utmost to get the American Nazi party and the KKK to support me -- come back after I've succeeded!".

 

[Thunder]

For some folks here, if Israel did not allow non-Jewish citizens, it would have been evil and racist and therefore illegitimate. Now that it does allow non-Jewish citizens, it is therefore not really the Jewish state, and therefore is also illegitimate..

please quote someone who has said this.

 

[Virus]

Oh, and by the way, for all those Neo-Zionists who enjoy complaining about how the world is soooo unfair to Israel and treats Israel different than anyone else, well put this into perspective:

NATO and other nations are now bombing Libyan military installations and machinery.

France and other states are now bombing forces in the Ivory Coast.

meanwhile, there has NEVER been any military action by NATO, the UN, etc...to respond to Israel's attacks upon Palestinians.

so how does this make your claims of unfair treatment look? its makes them look very silly & a bit pathetic.

next time, think about Libya..or Serbia..or Ivory Coast...before you accuse the world of being mean to wittle Israel.

There are no attacks upon Palestinians. There is legitimate defense against Palestinian terrorists.

OMG Parky can't tell the difference between Israel and Kadaffy! There you have it folks. Pure delusional hatred.

 

[Skeptic]

so, contrary to France, Israel is not really the a homeland for Jews. Its a state for folks who Israel wants to be become citizens and stay citizens, whether they are Jews or not.

Funny. I could have sworn it is possible for, say, Moroccans to become French citizens. Clearly France is therefore not the homeland of the French, it's all a big fraud.

...but why do I bother. If Israel did not allow non-Jews to become citizens, they'd be screaming, "Apartheid! Israel is illegitimate!". Now that Israel does allow non-Jews to become citizens, they're screaming "Not really the Jewish state! Israel is illegitimate!"

 

[Thunder]

Now that it does allow non-Jewish citizens, it is therefore not really the Jewish state, and therefore is also illegitimate...

Now that Israel does allow non-Jews to become citizens, they're screaming "Not really the Jewish state! Israel is illegitimate!"

um...there is only one person here screaming that.

 

[The Fool]

You and TF love semantics.

guilt:
 
–noun
1.
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability: He admitted his guilt.
2.
a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.
3.
conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.

ooops....wrong definition highlighted. We are discussing guilt, the legal term. Not feeling guilty because you ate the last cookie.

Goldstone did not and could not establish guilt however you will continue to claim he could and did.

 

[The Fool]

Why don't we start with the Resolution that created the Fact Finding mission in Gaza

From the outset it established guilt with Israel and did not reflect on the actions of Hamas which contributed to the civilian deaths.

and thats why Goldstone refused to conduct his commission on the terms of this resolution. But you will continue to say that he used this resolution as the basis of his commission.

 

[WildCat]

so israel is, ater all, a jewish state?
i thought it was secular.....

"Jewish" is an ethnicity as well as a religion. You can be Jewish, and be an atheist. Even a Druid.

 

[The Fool]

Goldstone claimed Israel deliberately targeted civilians as policy. He now says that that was not the case and there is no evidence for it. Is that not retracting any sort of claim?

on the balance of the evidence before him. why do i keep having to point this out to you? It makes a difference.

He does not say that there is now no evidence for it. He says that further evidence finally supplied by Israel would probably have seen a different finding if he had that evidence at the time.

This is hilarious.

correct....you are absolutely committed to the standard issue set of chants.

 

[The Fool]

But the investigation was formed on the basis of that bias. It's not surprising Israel wouldn't want to deal with it. It does nothing for their image, of course, but I don't think you can blame them.

investigation was not formed on the basis of that bias, Goldstone refused to do that. You will continue to ignore this fact and claim he did.

 

[The Fool]

um...there is only one person here screaming that.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal remarks

 

[Thunder]

"Jewish" is an ethnicity as well as a religion. You can be Jewish, and be an atheist. Even a Druid.

Israel has allowed immigrants from the former USSR who are practising Christians but have one single male Jewish grandparent to make Aliyah, and yet Israel forbids 100% ethnic Jews from making Aliyah if they became Messianic.

fascinating huh? even though such Jews would certainly have been killed by the Nazis, Israel still forbids them from immigrating under the Law of Return.

 

[angrysoba]

Israel has allowed immigrants from the former USSR who are practising Christians but have one single male Jewish grandparent to make Aliyah, and yet Israel forbids 100% ethnic Jews from making Aliyah if they became Messianic.

fascinating huh? even though such Jews would certainly have been killed by the Nazis, Israel still forbids them from immigrating under the Law of Return.

So your gripe here is lack of consistency? Good one.

 

[Thunder]

So your gripe here is lack of consistency? Good one.

if you don't like it, you can feel free to put me on ignore.

Israel cannot claim that their discriminatory Law of Return is justified by past persecution culminating in the Holocaust and the Nuremberg Laws, when Israel routinely forbids Jews from making Aliyah under the Law of Return, due to their religious choices..and their form of Orthodox conversion.

Israel has indeed refused the right to make Aliyah to people who would have certainly been murdered by the Nazis. Therefore, their Law of Return needs to be seriously ammended..or scrapped entirely.

 

[Thunder]

http://www.travelindustrydeals.com/news/4447

World's Worst Tourists: Israelis Might Top The List

clearly, this is motivated by anti-Semitism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2138252.stm

yup..its definitely anti-Semitism.