General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[The Fool]

If we can stop blaming Israel for a minute for lack of peace -- despite the fact that other side explicity calls for its destruction and for genocide -- in related news about Goldstone, Israel's minister of the Interior, Eli Yishai, invited Goldstone to visit Israel in the name of the Israeli government; Goldstone accepted.

Clearly, then, Goldstone himself doesn't consider the evil Israeli right-wing zionist government's antisemitic smear campaign against him, as some here described the criticism of his report, to have been serious enough to be requiring an apology from said evil right-wing zionists before coming to visit.

He is a respected Jurist....they don't play those sort of games even if you can imagine those sort of games and base your opinions on them. And the Israeli government has not slandered him. National governments don't tend to stoop to the cheap garbage displayed in this thread.

Not that this will stop the usual gang from, first, not apologizing for their use of the now-exploded report to viciously smear Israel, and, second, from demanding Israel apologize for attacking the report as biased anyway.

the report has "exploded" now? Will it also catch fire like the cars in chase movies?

 

[The Fool]

guilty?

only a court of law can deem someone guilty.

please don't place facts in the way of lovingly held beliefs. The chants must go on.

 

[Thunder]

If we can stop blaming Israel for a minute for lack of peace -- despite the fact that the other side explicity calls for its destruction and for genocide..

wrong.

not only is "the other side" not monolithic, but none of them call for Israel's destruction & genocide of the Jewish people.

 

[IDB87]

He did not do this.....you can't quote him saying this.

He details these accusations in his report. In November he spoke about the report, and the incidents in general, and asked:

If that isn’t collective punishment, what is?

Linky

He said what he said on the basis of the evidence before him which he laboriously explained.

I've asked you to explain what you mean by this 'evidence'. You are free to refer to anything besides Goldstone's pre-determined opinion.

The man can only take into consideration evidence he has before him.

You mean how Gaza visually looked? What evidence are you referring to?

why can't you reveal your secret?

I've already shared the resolution that created the Mission in this thread. It determined guilt before the investigation began and placed no blame on Hamas. That is bias defined.

sorry, I can't make any sense of this one...

You do not trust Israel (or any state for that matter) to investigate themselves in a transparent and unbiased way - why are you OK with it now?

Because they believed it was the best thing to do I suppose.

What does this even mean?

firstly, and for the last time. The finding was a case to answer...not guilt.

And I've been telling you that it was determined before the Mission even began that Israel was assigned the guilt of deliberately targeting civilians and infrastructure as Policy.

They were based on the evidence he had at the time and were not "baseless" as you state. You can't make evidence you don't like disappear.

Please explain what this evidence is?

I call it asking for evidence.
you believe reclaiming he retracted something is evidence he retracted something? I'm sure you believe he retracted something....something you believe exists...

Goldstone claimed Israel deliberately targeted civilians as policy. He now says that that was not the case and there is no evidence for it. Is that not retracting any sort of claim?

This is hilarious.

 

[IDB87]

guilty?

only a court of law can deem someone guilty.

You and TF love semantics.

guilt:
 
–noun
1.
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability: He admitted his guilt.
2.
a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.
3.
conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.

 

[Thunder]

You and TF love semantics.

that's nice.

guilt is something only a court can decide.

 

[IDB87]

that's nice.

guilt is something only a court can decide.

When a Mission is formed to investigate only one party that is perceived to be the only one responsible for any crimes, what does that tell you?

 

[Thunder]

When a Mission is formed to investigate only one party that is perceived to be the only one responsible for any crimes, what does that tell you?

it tells me the UN resolution was biased, not the investigation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ssion_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Mandate_of_mission

Upon being asked to lead the Mission, former United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson expressed disappointment with the mandate and refused to head the Mission for that reason. She stated that the resolution adopted by UN Human Rights Council was one-sided and "guided not by human rights but by politics. She later expressed full support for the report.[16] Richard Goldstone initially refused the appointment for the same reason, calling the mandate "biased" and "uneven-handed." In January 2011, Goldstone said that the UNHRC "repeatedly rush to pass condemnatory resolutions in the face of alleged violations of human rights law by Israel but fail to take similar action in the face of even more serious violations by other States. Until the Gaza Report they failed to condemn the firing of rockets and mortars at Israeli civilian centers."[17]

Following Goldstone's objection, the mandate was informally widened to cover activities by Palestinian militants as well, and this was the formulation quoted by the final report.[2][18

 

[IDB87]

it tells me the UN resolution was biased, not the investigation.

But the investigation was formed on the basis of that bias. It's not surprising Israel wouldn't want to deal with it. It does nothing for their image, of course, but I don't think you can blame them.

 

[Skeptic]

You find nothing wrong with deeming a state guilty before the investigation even begins?

Not when it's the Jewish state.

 

[IDB87]

But the investigation was formed on the basis of that bias. It's not surprising Israel wouldn't want to deal with it. It does nothing for their image, of course, but I don't think you can blame them.

Richard Goldstone accepted with a request that the range of the inquiry be enlarged to include Hamas’ behavior, and, in appointing Goldstone and other members of the Mission, the Council President rephrased the charge in accordance with Goldstone’s request. However, the President never requested nor received any UNHRC approval for the change; the “revised” mandate was never legally binding; and the Report reflects the original mandate in almost every aspect of its approach – from its framng narrative, to its selection of evidence and witnesses, to its harsh conclusions.

Linky

U.N. watch

 

[Thunder]

Not when it's the Jewish state.

yes, cause that's what it always boils down to. The Jews.

Its always about the Jews, even when its not.

Its always about anti-Semitism, even when its a Jewish judge.

crying wolf will lead no where.

 

[bikerdruid]

Not when it's the Jewish state.

so israel is, ater all, a jewish state?
i thought it was secular.....

 

[Thunder]

so israel is, ater all, a jewish state?
i thought it was secular.....

no, see...Israel is an ETHNIC Jewish state.

that's why folks can qualify for the Law of Return by converting to Judaism.

...unless they convert under the wrong Orthodox rabbi.

 

[bikerdruid]

no, see...Israel is an ETHNIC Jewish state.

that's why folks can qualify for the Law of Return by converting to Judaism.

...unless they convert under the wrong Orthodox rabbi.

are there no arab citizens?
if israel is a 'jewish state', are there no non jewish judges or politicians?
can christians immigrate to israel?

 

[Thunder]

are there no arab citizens?
if israel is a 'jewish state', are there no non jewish judges or politicians?
can christians immigrate to israel?

well, there are many non-Czechs in the Czech Republic.

The Islamic Republics of Iran and Afghanistan have lots of non-Muslims.

etc...etc.

 

[Skeptic]

are there no arab citizens?

There are lots of them.

if israel is a 'jewish state', are there no non jewish judges or politicians?

Yup. Some serve in the Knesset. The judge who presided over the court which put the (Jewish) ex-president of the state, Moshe Katzav, in jail for rape, is an Arab.

can christians immigrate to israel?

Yup. Some do.

Are you being sarcastic? Because in case you really don't know this, I suggest (seriously) you learn something before commenting about Israel -- these are questions on the same level of someone going on and on about American racism, and then we discover that he went on and on so much because he was under the impression that slavery is still legal.

 

[bikerdruid]

There are lots of them.



Yup. Some serve in the Knesset. The judge who presided over the court which put the (Jewish) ex-president of the state, Moshe Katzav, in jail for rape, is an Arab.



Yup. Some do.

Are you being sarcastic? Because in case you really don't know this, I suggest (seriously) you learn something before commenting about Israel -- these are questions on the same level of someone going on and on about American racism, and then we discover that he went on and on so much because he was under the impression that slavery is still legal.

why did you call israel a 'jewish state' then?

 

[Skeptic]

Because it is the state established by, and for, the Jewish people, in their historic homeland. Much like France was established by, and for, the French people in their historic homeland.

That hardly means there are no non-Gaelic people in France, or that everybody in France needs to become a Catholic.

 

[angrysoba]

Let's change gear a bit.

What do the residents think of this article?

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/columnists/47451/killing-children-and-peace