General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Thunder]

I think the use of the word "bigoted" in is/pal discussion should be tantamount to a godwin from here on.

no

 

[IDB87]

those same posters also complain when I create a thread that is NOT about Israel. or if they don't complain, then they insert Israel into the discussion as a petty derail.

Which makes them what, Thunder?

 

[IDB87]

i
your unwillingness to face the truth about the rampant bigotry in this forum is duly noted.

Your statement of,

the state of israel supports and maintains an apartheid state and supports and encourages the appropriation of palistinian farms in the west bank, is criminally active in its treatment of gazans and is guilty of crimes and sins against humanity as a result of those actions.

is analogous to Virus' statement. They are both critiques of the state that are supported with factual evidence. Referencing those facts is neither anti-Semitic, nor bigoted.

Your failure to understand that is yours alone.

 

[Cobalt]

I think the use of the word "bigoted" in is/pal discussion should be tantamount to a godwin from here on.

It's been meaningless in these discussions for a long time.

 

[Thunder]

It's been meaningless in these discussions for a long time.

for the most part, the term "bigotry" and the slur "bigot" is used against folks who simply have a different point of view.

 

[IDB87]

for the most part, the term "bigotry" and the slur "bigot" is used against folks who simply have a different point of view.

Copy/paste the rest for posterity's sake:

The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, inter-regional prejudice, gender and sexual orientation, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders and religion or spirituality.

Spin away.

 

[Mycroft]

i use the word bigot because, in any discussion about lsrael/palestine, the bigots climb out of the wood-work.

That's certainly true, though I suspect you and I would disagree on who the bigots are.

israel can do no wrong...

Not true at all, but it is true that the majority of the stuff Israel gets bashed for is more the product anti-Israel propaganda. For example, when enforcing a blockade against Hamas gets re-branded as "piracy".

...while the palestinians are called, "a gangster enclave that raises kids on Nazi propaganda."

Think about this for a second. The Palestinians are led by Fatah, which is essentially the PLO, and Hamas. Do you claim that either of those organizations can not accurately be described as "gangster enclaves"?

The anti-Israel propaganda these organizations put out is well documented.

...in light of comments like that, the word 'bigot' seems sadly appropriate.

Maybe...if you somehow imagine its appropriate for Israel and Israel supporters to ignore the obvious evidence of the nature of their enemies. That would be truly bigoted.

 

[Thunder]

Copy/paste the rest for posterity's sake:
Spin away.

as I stated, many folks at JREF have been called "bigots", not for expressing actual bigotry, but for simply disagreeing with another poster.

 

[Thunder]

Maybe...if you somehow imagine its appropriate for Israel and Israel supporters to ignore the obvious evidence of the nature of their enemies. That would be truly bigoted.

claiming that violent, racist, brutal, or other negative behavior is somehow due to one's religion or ethnicity, is indeed bigotry.

 

[IDB87]

as I stated, many folks at JREF have been called "bigots", not for expressing actual bigotry, but for simply disagreeing with another poster.

Question for you:

In your sig, you have the phrase "Bigots and racists have no right to complain about racism and bigotry."

Does that translate to:

"People who disagree with me and racists have no right to complain about racism and other people who may disagree with them?"

Or are you going to point out that Bikerdruid was using the definition I provided when attacking Virus?

 

[Thunder]

Question for you:

In your sig, you have the phrase "Bigots and racists have no right to complain about racism and bigotry."

Does that translate to:

"People who disagree with me and racists have no right to complain about racism and other people who may disagree with them?"

My sig. is VERY clear. People who express bigotry, racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, Islamophobia, prejudice, etc etc etc...have NO right to then complain about bigotry against their own or another group.

Its called "demanding consistency and condemning hypocrisy".

do you think its appropriate for folks who express bigotry to then turn around and complain about bigotry when their or another group are the target?

I have co-workers who complain about anti-Semitism, but then when others are not around they call blacks "monkeys" and the "N" word. Do you find this acceptable behavior?

 

[IDB87]

claiming that violent, racist, brutal, or other negative behavior is somehow due to one's religion or ethnicity, is indeed bigotry.

No. It is bigotry when someone is intolerant of one's religion, ethnicity, marital status, gender etc.

Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out.

 

[IDB87]

My sig. is VERY clear. People who express bigotry, racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, Islamophobia, prejudice, etc etc etc...have NO right to then complain about bigotry against their own or another group.

So in the context you just provided (bigotry being analogous to racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc). bigotry is more than just disagreeing with someone?



How about we just demand consistency from here on..

 

[Thunder]

So in the context you just provided (bigotry being analogous to racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc). bigotry is more than just disagreeing with someone?

i have never called someone a bigot or accused someone of bigotry, just because they disagreed with me. other have, but I have not.

 

[IDB87]

i have never called someone a bigot or accused someone of bigotry, just because they disagreed with me. other have, but I have not.

In post #252, you said "Here here!!!" which is generally understood to be a statement of agreement with what was said/done.

Do you think Bikerdruids use of the term bigot is appropriate in that context? Why or why not?

 

[Thunder]

Since religion (Islam in this case) leads to violent, racist, brutal and other negative behavior, it is not bigotry to point that fact out.

it is bigotry to make such a statement, because the statement is clearly false. I know of many Muslims who are extremly gentile, kind, and caring people. Islam, rather than motivating them to be hateful and brutal, has made them loving and kind.

Making such a sweeping and ridiculous false-generalization, that Islam leads to violent, racist, and other negative behavior, is clearly bigotry.

its no different than saying Judaism causes folks to steal, lie, cheat, and believe they are superior to non-Jews. both are clear examples of bigotry.

......or are bigoted attacks against Muslims ok, while bigoted attacks against Jews are bad?

 

[IDB87]

it is bigotry to make such a statement, because the statement is clearly false. I know of many Muslims who are extremly gentile, kind, and caring people. Islam, rather than motivating them to be hateful and brutal, has made them loving and kind.

Sorry, those people were already loving, gentile, kind and caring people. Or do you mean to say they were horrible little sadists until their brains developed to the point where they could understand the Quran?

Making such a sweeping and ridiculous false-generalization, that Islam leads to violent, racist, and other negative behavior, is clearly bigotry.

No, saying all Muslims are violent racists and commit negative behavior is bigotry. Saying that Islam enables (and often encourages) people to do so is not. Those who don't understand the difference won't understand the difference.

 

[Thunder]

No, saying all Muslims are violent racists and commit negative behavior is bigotry. Saying that Islam enables (and often encourages) people to do so is not.

is it bigoted to say that Judaism enables & often encourages theft, lies, cheating, treason, and feelings of superiority to non-Jews?


consistency, remember.

 

[IDB87]

is it bigoted to say that Judaism enables & often encourages theft, lies, cheating, treason, and feelings of superiority to non-Jews?


consistency, remember.

This first:

In post #252, you said "Here here!!!" which is generally understood to be a statement of agreement with what was said/done.

Do you think Bikerdruids use of the term bigot is appropriate in that context? Why or why not?

If you refuse to answer it, I won't be participating with you in this thread any longer.

*ETA

There is something in the teachings of Judiasm that enables the nutbag settlers of the West Bank to commit the crimes they do. If that's where we start with the faults of Judiasm, I would say it's not off to a good start.

 

[Thunder]

Do you think Bikerdruids use of the term bigot is appropriate in that context? Why or why not?

I said "hear hear", because for the most part I agree with him.

Now, do you agree that it is bigoted to say that "Judaism enables & often encourages theft, lies, cheating, treason, and feelings of superiority to non-Jews"?