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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 4

lionking said:
Israel had one with Gaza for many years until Hamas instigated this war. This is a fact.
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The truth is somewhere in the middle though, surely? Some 700,000 Palestinian refugees since 1948 on the one hand and 850,000 Mizrahis in the decades following on the other.

If the world insists on redress or return for the Palestinians then we must do the same for the Jews...and Israel cannot do a deal without such for the Mizrahi (#1,979).
 
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arthwollipot said:
I don't have to.

www.amnesty.org

Gaza: Evidence points to Israel’s continued use of starvation to inflict genocide against Palestinians

Evidence gathered by Amnesty International demonstrates how over a month since the introduction of its militarized aid distribution system, Israel has continued to use starvation of civilians as a weapon of war against Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip and to deliberately impose conditions...
www.amnesty.org www.amnesty.org
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The allegations of Amnesty International are serious, for sure but many world leaders do not agree that Israel is carrying out a genocide. Much will depend on how much support Hamas has among Gazans and the degree to which Hamas hides among the population.

Do we have any evidence on that?
 
Poem said:
The truth is somewhere in the middle though, surely? Some 700,000 Palestinian refugees since 1948 on the one hand and 850,000 Mizrahis in the decades following on the other.

If the world insists on redress or return for the Palestinians then we must do the same for the Jews...and Israel cannot do a deal without such for the Mizrahi (#1,979).
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This is of no relevance to what is happening today. Israel exists and will be here to stay. Palestine had the choice to accept a peace deal and their own homeland. The Camp David agreement was simply one that would have resulted in a Palestinian state. Instead they opted to welcome terrorists to lead them.

As I have said many times in this thread, I had no difficulty choosing a side. Hamas could have stopped this war a long time ago. And still could. But they won’t.
 
lionking said:
As I have said many times in this thread, I had no difficulty choosing a side. Hamas could have stopped this war a long time ago. And still could. But they won’t.
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◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Hamas has no chance of stopping this genocide. War? How many casualties has Hamas inflicted upon the Israelis in the last six months? How many casualties has the Israeli state inflicted on Hamas? How many civilians? You think this is in any way balanced? Even remotely? You can't call it a war. It's a slaughter.

Look - Hamas has done some supremely ◊◊◊◊◊◊ stuff, obviously. But Israel is the one massacring civilians at hospitals, schools, and aid distribution centres. And you know something else I've noticed? Take a look at the numbers of casualties that are reported at aid distribution stations. Look at how many killed, and how many wounded. Israel is deliberately wounding civilians and not killing them, in order to overwhelm medical facilities. Is this to you not an atrocious war crime?

The Israeli Netanyahu regime is committing war crimes vastly disproportionate to the war crimes committed by Hamas. Vastly.

Hamas could have stopped this war? You know what you remind me of? The bully in the schoolyard punching someone and saying if you just give them your lunch money, the punching will stop, so really it's your fault that you're getting punched. Except instead of punching it's rockets and bombs and luring civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot.

It's gross, and it's disgusting. It's atrocity after atrocity after atrocity, and it's not the fault of Palestinian civilians.

There is no good side to this war. There is evil, and there is massively more evil. And I have no difficulty choosing a side either.
 
lionking said:
This is of no relevance to what is happening today. Israel exists and will be here to stay. Palestine had the choice to accept a peace deal and their own homeland. The Camp David agreement was simply one that would have resulted in a Palestinian state. Instead they opted to welcome terrorists to lead them.

As I have said many times in this thread, I had no difficulty choosing a side. Hamas could have stopped this war a long time ago. And still could. But they won’t.
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Rather than suggesting that the Palestinians return and the Mizrahi go back to where they were expelled from, I was and am merely pointing out that the current media narrative on this issue is skewed. Indeed, Israel is here to stay and a solution where the Palestinians are absorbed into a foreign Muslim country, just as the Jews were absorbed (into Israel and the West) is an option.

Muslim countries have had and continue to have a vested interest in perpetuating the refugee status of the Palestinians.
 
arthwollipot said:
◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. Hamas has no chance of stopping this genocide. War? How many casualties has Hamas inflicted upon the Israelis in the last six months? How many casualties has the Israeli state inflicted on Hamas? How many civilians? You think this is in any way balanced? Even remotely? You can't call it a war. It's a slaughter.

Look - Hamas has done some supremely ◊◊◊◊◊◊ stuff, obviously. But Israel is the one massacring civilians at hospitals, schools, and aid distribution centres. And you know something else I've noticed? Take a look at the numbers of casualties that are reported at aid distribution stations. Look at how many killed, and how many wounded. Israel is deliberately wounding civilians and not killing them, in order to overwhelm medical facilities. Is this to you not an atrocious war crime?

The Israeli Netanyahu regime is committing war crimes vastly disproportionate to the war crimes committed by Hamas. Vastly.

Hamas could have stopped this war? You know what you remind me of? The bully in the schoolyard punching someone and saying if you just give them your lunch money, the punching will stop, so really it's your fault that you're getting punched. Except instead of punching it's rockets and bombs and luring civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot.

It's gross, and it's disgusting. It's atrocity after atrocity after atrocity, and it's not the fault of Palestinian civilians.

There is no good side to this war. There is evil, and there is massively more evil. And I have no difficulty choosing a side either.
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You swallowed a version.
 
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"...luring civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot." --- arthwollipot's claim

GHF is providing massive amounts of actual meals (not just bags of flour). The access/egress to these foodstuffs is demarcated, to create an orderly flow of people. By veering too close towards IDF troops, there have been Gazans shot because they're considered a threat to these soldiers' tenuous overlooking positions.

HAMAS is upset with that program. They are themselves attacking and shooting and threatening people for getting the aid. (see: Killing of GHF workers, eight of whom died when HAMAS attacked their bus).
The HAMAS-run interior ministry is telling inhabitants: “The GHF aim is to lure civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot (that's exactly how the HAMAS is portraying things) and civilians must act 'responsibly' and not follow misleading Israeli instructions.”

The aid is being provided. People are getting food.
 
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webfusion said:
"...luring civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot." --- arthwollipot's claim

GHF is providing massive amounts of actual meals (not just bags of flour). The access/egress to these foodstuffs is demarcated, to create an orderly flow of people. By veering too close towards IDF troops, there have been Gazans shot because they're considered a threat to these soldiers' tenuous overlooking positions.

HAMAS is upset with that program. They are themselves attacking and shooting and threatening people for getting the aid. (see: Killing of GHF workers, eight of whom died when HAMAS attacked their bus).
The HAMAS-run interior ministry is telling inhabitants: “The GHF aim is to lure civilians into ambushes so that they can be shot (that's exactly how the HAMAS is portraying things) and civilians must act 'responsibly' and not follow misleading Israeli instructions.”

The aid is being provided. People are getting food.
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As always in a war situation, it's almost impossible to know the actual truth.
 
At the same time, Hamas states:
“Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.”
 
The actual truth is over 65-million meals have been distributed to date.

The actual truth is Gazans are ill-served by HAMAS Islamic Fundamentalist cadres.

The actual truth is Hadar Goldin's corpse is still unaccounted for.

The actual truth is GHF is not without controversy.
www.palestinechronicle.com

ISIS, CIA and the GHF: Israel’s New Frontier of Control through Hunger

The mere fact that there is an active effort to launch this initiative represents a whole new level of depravity.
www.palestinechronicle.com www.palestinechronicle.com
 
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In the face of the Hannibal Doctrine, it's a bit pointless to talk about Hamas using Human Shields.
In the absence of an actual investigation into October 7th ( because the Israeli leadership keeps blocking it) we might never know the exact numbers, but during the attack the IDF has admitted to killing many, many hostages because they were believed to be near Gazan fighters - with Tanks and Helicopters.
The graveyard of cars of people fleeing the Festival that got torched by IDF helicopters speaks for itself.
 
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