Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[Aridas]

Incidentally, we can learn a lot about propaganda from this and previous posts. Whereas a rational person would prefer to be presented with an accurate view of the subject, we see the OP of this tangent argue by example, sourced from a newspaper which is documented to be propagandizing regarding the subject in exactly this way. This serves only to lead to a biased view of the conflict and is effectively anti-scientific.

Hmm. Interesting. Unfortunately, I have to wonder what you're referring to. In the start of this topic, dudalb didn't cite an article and later, you brought up Western media as you spent time demonstrating your ignorance about it. In other words, you're saying that we can learn a lot about propaganda from your rant? Sure, why not, much as it's not going to be pretty for you. Either way, the first linked article was indeed by me, when I gave an example of what Western media actually said on the topic, one which was echoed by the rest on a quick look, in response to your tangent about Western media's treatment of the subject. Once again, unsurprisingly, your rant was completely wrong about how the subject was actually being treated in the Western media. Trying to claim falsehoods as fact definitely leads to untrustworthy conclusions and is indisputably unscientific in both theory and practice.

That simple point is then obfuscated through the following argument: "You can't even agree when people are critical of Israel." Is completely irrelevant and attempts to frame the argument as if it's about how critical one should or should not be of Israel.

Indeed. "You can't even agree when people are critical of Israel." is irrelevant to the topic. It has much to do with how much we should consider you to be interested in discussing topics in good faith, though.

ETA: and while you are correct that my specific claim isn't supported by this study, I can't find the other one where that claim was found and am not going to spend my time searching for it - I thought it was there but couldn't find it. It's a factoid stuck in my head, take it or leave it as you will. The underlying point still stands given the study that was presented.

The point that there is media bias in coverage was and is uncontested. It's pretty obvious in general, for that matter, for just about anyone even passingly acquainted with the situation. I even referenced it in my initial post on the topic of the "price tag" attacks. That, too, is the kind of bias that the cited study actually dealt with, given the abstract and the link that you had actually given. That point still doesn't support your other claims at all, and as it stands, your accusation was that this event was being treated in the way you claimed. You've failed to back that up, support your actual claims about the Western media, show any hint of caring about the "price tag" attack, or demonstrated that you actually understand what a "price tag" attack is. That last, of course, wouldn't even be on the table if you hadn't given plenty of reason to believe that you don't know what they are in your rant against Western media. I could go on, but there's really no need.

Either way, given my actual experience with what Western media says, your factoid or claims, as actually made, are getting left. Weaker claims might have a chance, of course, but those weren't the claims that you made.

 

[Mycroft]

Incidentally, while it's a little questionable about whether I can really be called pro-Israel...

Meh, that you look at facts and form informed opinions makes you one of us. Take away the anti-Israel fanatics and let the pro-Israel folk talk amongst themselves, and they will all have plenty of criticisms too. You'd fit right in.

All the more reason to consider those people trolls more than anything else.

I don't think they're trolls. I think they're sincere. I think most of them honestly believe they're standing up for truth and justice, and just don't comprehend their own blindspots and biases.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

the likes of IAK are the sort to excuse Assad using Nerve Gas by saying "he's protecting national sovereignty" with no hint of irony. When was the last time Israel decided to round Palestinians up into mass graves and shoot them all after blanketing West Bank/Gaza with VX?

 

[dudalb]

Meh, that you look at facts and form informed opinions makes you one of us. Take away the anti-Israel fanatics and let the pro-Israel folk talk amongst themselves, and they will all have plenty of criticisms too. You'd fit right in.




I don't think they're trolls. I think they're sincere. I think most of them honestly believe they're standing up for truth and justice, and just don't comprehend their own blindspots and biases.

The terms the Soviets..who were expert at exploting people like you describe....had for them was "Useful Idiots".

 

[Aridas]

Meh, that you look at facts and form informed opinions makes you one of us. Take away the anti-Israel fanatics and let the pro-Israel folk talk amongst themselves, and they will all have plenty of criticisms too. You'd fit right in.

Ehh... the reason why it's a bit questionable is that I don't actually care much about Israel itself, either way. For that matter, if I was still a Christian, I'd likely be slightly against Israel existing, given that I'm not and never have been enthusiastic about the world ending. I do care about good arguments and consistent application of principles, though, which has often put me on Israel's side in a number of matters. It's a little like the difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion, really. Most people who are pro-choice don't want abortions to happen, but they place higher priority on other things, like a person's right to make decisions about their own body. To clarify, I don't particularly mind being called pro-Israel, but it feels like it's a bit inaccurate.

I don't think they're trolls. I think they're sincere. I think most of them honestly believe they're standing up for truth and justice, and just don't comprehend their own blindspots and biases.

I differ a bit. If a person is just trying to needle other posters and not actually addressing the issues at hand in any meaningful fashion, I do consider that reason to consider someone a troll. Not necessarily sufficient reason, if there's a relevant body of work that indicates otherwise, but reason and sufficient reason are slightly different things. Having blindspots and biases isn't cause to be called a troll, regardless. How one chooses to engage others has everything to do with whether it's reasonable to consider them a troll, on the other hand.

 

[trustbutverify]

Good news...Hamas finally captured Zio-dolphin.

Another glorious victory for "anti-imperialism".

 

[caveman1917]

'Uninhabitable': UN Report says Total Destruction of Gaza Nearly Complete

Under constant threat of war and a devastating economic blockade, occupied territory is being 'de-developed' – a process by which development is not merely hindered but reversed

Or for the skeptics: "Vast Muslim conspiracy claims total destruction of Gaza nearly complete."

 

[Aridas]

'Uninhabitable': UN Report says Total Destruction of Gaza Nearly Complete

Total Destruction? The actual information given doesn't support the headline's claim. The situation is certainly quite grim, at the moment, though, yes, and has certainly become much grimmer in very recent times. Quite frankly, though, that has been the incredibly obvious and easily predictable result of the local politics. That things have become worse and worse for the normal population since Hamas took over has been pretty much inevitable, frankly.

Or for the skeptics: "Vast Muslim conspiracy claims total destruction of Gaza nearly complete."

You realize that this just makes you sound like you're sore about getting called out on how bad your overall arguments have actually been and little else, right?

 

[caveman1917]

You realize that this just makes you sound like you're sore about getting called out on how bad your overall arguments have actually been and little else, right?

Having facts and evidence called out as "bad arguments" by a bunch of racist bigots is certainly part of the fun.

 

[trustbutverify]

Coexistance with the Zionist Entity? It may not be impossible...

At the central station in Budapest, blankets strewn across the floor form the makeshift homes of thousands of asylum seekers. Most are trying to get to Western Europe by any means necessary, but all paths are blocked. ‘Whoever helps us, we’ll be grateful to them for generations. And if help comes from the Israeli people, that would signal a new beginning for our two nations.’

An intelligent, progressive Israeli regime might just find all kinds of amazing opportunities open up for it.

 

[Aridas]

Having facts and evidence called out as "bad arguments" by a bunch of racist bigots is certainly part of the fun.

The litany of times that you've falsely accused posters of such things doesn't exactly make this particularly convincing, though a decent case could have been made for... one of the posters you engaged, I think. Hardly enough to call a "bunch." Either way, where you've actually stated facts that were relevant and true, there's been remarkably little argument from the large bulk of the posters here. When you've tried to just post irrelevant facts to the discussion that you claimed to be addressing? Lots of problems there. When you conveniently leave out a bunch of relevant facts that would completely change the picture you're painting? That tends to cause problems for you, too. When you are blatantly trolling? Yeah, that will obviously cause problems, too.

An intelligent, progressive Israeli regime might just find all kinds of amazing opportunities open up for it.

Frankly, I don't really expect the Israeli government to help them all that much. I would be happy to be pleasantly surprised, even if it were simply a matter of the Israeli government trying to get some actually good international PR.

 

[applecorped]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ssiles-marked-israel-must-wiped-out/81517488/

"Iran test-fired two ballistic missiles, one of them with the phrase "Israel should be wiped off the Earth" written on it in Hebrew, Iranian media reported Wednesday."

 

[Jules Galen]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ssiles-marked-israel-must-wiped-out/81517488/

"Iran test-fired two ballistic missiles, one of them with the phrase "Israel should be wiped off the Earth" written on it in Hebrew, Iranian media reported Wednesday."

Many times...Iran is stupid. And they are definetly stupid this time. All they wanted to do was get people all "NeRvOuS" so they could feel effective...feel powerful. Ignore it and it will go away.

Iran doesn't have Nukes. They really don't want nukes. It's all O.K..

Don't get wrapped up in the posturing.

Or...as my grandma used to say, "Please don't kick my Chihuahua when he barks and nips at your feet...he's just a loud yip, bulging eyeballs and a boner".

 

[WildCat]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ssiles-marked-israel-must-wiped-out/81517488/

"Iran test-fired two ballistic missiles, one of them with the phrase "Israel should be wiped off the Earth" written on it in Hebrew, Iranian media reported Wednesday."

No, no, it's all mistranslated!

The Israel bashers/Iran apologists here used to argue that for months, they'd even trot out some useful idiot in Germany for "proof".

 

[Ziggurat]

Ignore it and it will go away.

Sure, because if there's one thing history has taught us, it's that we don't actually need to worry about militants who want to exterminate the Jews.

 

[Mycroft]

As long as the topic of Iran has come up:

Speaking at a press conference in Beirut on Wednesday, with the participation of several leaders of Palestinian factions, Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, Mohammad Fathali, said: "Continuing Iran's support for the oppressed Palestinian people, Iran announces the provision of financial aid to families of Palestinian martyrs who were killed in the "Jerusalem intifada."

According to the ambassador, every family of a martyr will receive $7,000, while a family whose home was demolished by the IDF will receive $30,000. The aid will be conveyed through the Palestinian branch of the Shahid Institution, which was established in Iran in 1992.

Fathali called on the Arab Muslim nation to unite around the central Palestinian issue and said that "the martyrs' blood will release the entire Palestine, from the river to the sea."

I had an article which reported that the PNA had told Iran that giving the money directly to the families was unacceptable, that in order to maintain the established order the money instead would need to be channeled through the PNA, who would distribute it to the families. I wanted to post that link instead because it highlights to facets of this conflict, foreign governments promoting Palestinian-Arab terror and PNA corruption. Oh well, this will have to do.

 

[trustbutverify]

As long as the topic of Iran has come up:

Speaking at a press conference in Beirut on Wednesday, with the participation of several leaders of Palestinian factions, Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, Mohammad Fathali, said: "Continuing Iran's support for the oppressed Palestinian people, Iran announces the provision of financial aid to families of Palestinian martyrs who were killed in the "Jerusalem intifada."

According to the ambassador, every family of a martyr will receive $7,000, while a family whose home was demolished by the IDF will receive $30,000. The aid will be conveyed through the Palestinian branch of the Shahid Institution, which was established in Iran in 1992.

Imagine the reaction if the US announced a similar program for "freedom fighters" of their liking.

 

[Mycroft]

Imagine the reaction if the US announced a similar program for "freedom fighters" of their liking.

That's a good point too. I was just putting it out there for those in denial about Iranian hostility towards Israel.

 

[Jules Galen]

Imagine the reaction if the US announced a similar program for "freedom fighters" of their liking.

Yeah...but just think of all that land Israel is stealing from the Palestinians while they lock them up in Ghettos. There is some upside for Israel here, too.

 

[trustbutverify]

Yeah...but

I see.