Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Your conjecture is not inaccurate. There's more to the story, however, that you could learn by looking at more than the fragments of a fifteen year old webpage.

Or you guys could explain your pov, with citations, and not cryptic and self contradictory references to secrets you can't reveal.

 

[TSR]

Blaskowitz specifies his concern as follows:

- "It is wholly misguided to slaughter 10,000 Jews and Poles as is happening at the moment"; the note doesn't say how Blaskowitz knows about this slaughter - only that the slaughter, with at least 10,000 Polish and Jewish victims, is occurring and is not a positive development

- the slaughter has certain negative effects: 1) fueling Allied propaganda, which he describes says had "hitherto covered only a fraction of what has actually occurred," 2) stirring, because of the public nature of the atrocities, "religious Poles" to view Germans with "disgust" and to develop "a great sense of pity for the Jewish population," 3) making the tasks of the Wehrmacht more difficult as Poles lost respect for the Germans, and 4) causing "the worst damage," namely demoralization of the German troops, which Blaskowitz described as "the tremendous brutalization and moral depravity, which is spreading among precious German manpower, like an epidemic"

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I'm rather fond of rubbing deniers' noses in the part where he explains that the Allied broadcasts are bad even though "only a tiny fraction of what has actually occurred" is known in the west, and goes on to say that the political damage will only get worse "particularly since the atrocities did take place..."
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[LemmyCaution]

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I'm rather fond of rubbing deniers' noses in the part where he explains that the Allied broadcasts are bad even though "only a tiny fraction of what has actually occurred" is known in the west, and goes on to say that the political damage will only get worse "particularly since the atrocities did take place..."
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And according to Dogzilla, there are no specifics in the Blaskowitz report?!?!?!?!

 

[LemmyCaution]

Let's add one more detail - ahem - for Dogzilla to ponder when he tries to make the work of the Einsatzgruppen purely local or on a par with the crimes of Charles Graner and Lynndie England: we know from an intercepted radio telegram that, in addition to the other high-ranking recipients of the Ereignismeldungen, there was one I neglected to mention. As Gestapo chief Muller put it, "Regular reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east are to be sent to the Fuhrer."

These regular reports which Muller referred to were the very reports that detail the killings of Jews and some others - according to the Eriegnismeldungen - as Jews, intellectual Jews, Jewish activists, wandering Jews, rebellious Jews, partisans, Gypsies, communists, politruks and commissars, Asiatics, saboteurs, agitators, neglected juveniles, unreliable elements, racially inferior elements, asocials, hostile elements, undesirable elements, suspicious persons, criminals, delinquents, propagandists, spies and informers, mentally inferior persons and mental patients, pests, civilians, and arsonists, among others. In any event, Jews were singled out and targeted, with large losses of life. The reports containing these descriptions were the same ones used to convict the leaders of the EGs for 1 million murders in the east - 95% of the victims being Jews. And the National Socialist party and state leadership were reading about these "achievements" practically in real time.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Let's add one more detail - ahem - for Dogzilla to ponder when he tries to make the work of the Einsatzgruppen purely local or on a par with the crimes of Charles Graner and Lynndie England: we know from an intercepted radio telegram that, in addition to the other high-ranking recipients of the Ereignismeldungen, there was one I neglected to mention. As Gestapo chief Muller put it, "Regular reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the east are to be sent to the Fuhrer."

These regular reports which Muller referred to were the very reports that detail the killings of Jews and some others - according to the Eriegnismeldungen - as Jews, intellectual Jews, Jewish activists, wandering Jews, rebellious Jews, partisans, Gypsies, communists, politruks and commissars, Asiatics, saboteurs, agitators, neglected juveniles, unreliable elements, racially inferior elements, asocials, hostile elements, undesirable elements, suspicious persons, criminals, delinquents, propagandists, spies and informers, mentally inferior persons and mental patients, pests, civilians, and arsonists, among others. In any event, Jews were singled out and targeted, with large losses of life. The reports containing these descriptions were the same ones used to convict the leaders of the EGs for 1 million murders in the east - 95% of the victims being Jews. And the National Socialist party and state leadership were reading about these "achievements" practically in real time.

The German's 32 hour day once again rears its ugly lying forked tongue head.

 

[TSR]

The German's 32 hour day once again rears its ugly lying forked tongue head.

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Ummm. What?
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[Dogzilla]

I guess you don't understand that historians, whether examining the American Civil War or World War II, try to get as close to originals as they can. When they want the assistance of models and replicas, they do not rely on popular memorial sites but proceed from original plans, contemporary witness observations, diagrams etc created at the time or from memory - cross correlated and (this is the point) documented and explained, this being exactly what you lot have failed to do here. Once again you guys seize upon a detail - a single data point - without putting it into context. Your method works for nothing, at no time, not for the 1860s and not for the 1940s.

What do these words have to do with false comparisons? Are you going to tell us how Majdanek is kinda like Gettysburg, yeah, you know a former concentration camp in Poland is, in your view, basically the same as a battlefield in North America . . . uh, that is . . . pray, elucidate. . .

 

[LemmyCaution]

What do these words have to do with false comparisons? Are you going to tell us how Majdanek is kinda like Gettysburg, yeah, you know a former concentration camp in Poland is, in your view, basically the same as a battlefield in North America . . . uh, that is . . . pray, elucidate. . .

No, I am going to tell you that, no matter what continent or time period you are talking about, if you are honest, you will not examine a reconstruction of something, without strong documentation from the original, in order to understand the original. Your sophistry that somehow it differs whether a poorly sourced replica comes from the American or European continent is embarrassingly dumb: in both cases, it's a poorly sourced replica. Why can't you guys just explain what you're trying to say about Majdanek - layout, number of chambers, uses of them, differences between them, constructions details, etc. - instead of trumping up such stupidity that it's ok to make a crappy replica on one continent but not another? Why the cat and mouse?

 

[Dogzilla]

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This is the direct link to the picture about which Saggs is whining. Assuming 10' ceilings, looks to me like that window's sill is at about 7'. Given that they were already weak from starvation and crappy living conditions, just what do you expect that the victims would be able to do with that window?

Plus the Ostjuden were dwarfs compared to people today. That's why so many of them were able to fit into the mass graves.

And what about this? Why would a delousing chamber need a peephole?

Or this? Given that HCN is lighter than air, tossing Zyklon in from the top onto unmoving objects would not be terribly efficient.

So what proof do you have that those features were present when the camp was in operation? Parts of the camp have been reconstructed after the war. It's possible that the holes in the door and the doors in the ceiling were added during a post-war reconstruction. You can't really know unless you ask somebody and even then it's entirely possible that they won't know or that they will tell you something that is wrong.

As an aside, as a general rule, historians usually avoid reasoning backwards from assumptions based on the present as you have done here. That's because the method is . . . well, backwards. The perils of the approach are obvious -- it might lead someone to conclude that the battle of Gettysburg was a hoax because the present terrain features of the land don't correspond with the 1863 descriptions, so the 1863 descriptions must be bogus.

Or this? Were the lice trying to claw their way out?

If there are claw marks on that wall they are too small to be seen with the naked eye. So, yeah, it must've been lice claws.

No, they banned you because you refused to acknowledge points like those above (just like you are about to do) and simply parroted the same lies over and over.

Just like you do here.

If they banned him it was because he violated the taboo. And if they banned him, it doesn't appear to still be in effect. His status earlier today said "member"

 

[TSR]

Plus the Ostjuden were dwarfs compared to people today. That's why so many of them were able to fit into the mass graves.

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And just how many were in mass graves at Majdanek?
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So what proof do you have that those features were present when the camp was in operation? Parts of the camp have been reconstructed after the war.

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What proof have you that the gas chambers at Majdanek were recontructed after the war?
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As an aside, as a general rule, historians usually avoid reasoning backwards from assumptions based on the present as you have done here.

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No, I haven't.
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If there are claw marks on that wall they are too small to be seen with the naked eye. So, yeah, it must've been lice claws.

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Wrong again.
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If they banned him it was because he violated the taboo. And if they banned him, it doesn't appear to still be in effect. His status earlier today said "member"

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What proof do you offer of a taboo?
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[Dogzilla]

And according to Dogzilla, there are no specifics in the Blaskowitz report?!?!?!?!

According to Lemmycaution, "indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews" is a specific detail?!?!? I know you guys like to keep everything about the holocaust as fuzzy as possible but really?

 

[TSR]

According to Lemmycaution, "indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews" is a specific detail?!?!? I know you guys like to keep everything about the holocaust as fuzzy as possible but really?

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You were given many specific details in my original post and in my and LC's follow ups.

But do tell us: what is "fuzzy" about "indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews"? Seem pretty clear and specific to me...
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[Dogzilla]

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And just how many were in mass graves at Majdanek?
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Three million. No, one and a half million. No, seventy nine thousand. Wait! Count all the shoes and divide by two! Shoot! I don't know.

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What proof have you that the gas chambers at Majdanek were recontructed after the war?

And TSR reveals his ignorance of holocaust historiography. What proof do you have that they were the original?

No, I haven't.

You just did.

What proof do you offer of a taboo?
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The TOS forbidding holocaust denial.

 

[TSR]

I don't know.

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That much is obvious/

So do yourself a favour and stop trying to crack "jokes" about people dying, hmmmn?
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And TSR reveals his ignorance of holocaust historiography. What proof do you have that they were the original?

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That there is not the slightest hint of evidence that they were reconstructed.
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You just did.

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Not by any normal usage of that word.
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The TOS forbidding holocaust denial.

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Really? Where can I read this clause in the TOS?
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[tsig]

Why would I look into something I don't care about? Especially since Team holocaust has said it doesn't matter if eyewitness testimony is accurate or truthful?



The Jaeger report is allegedly a report of Einsatzgruppen activity, right? Why were the Einsatzgruppen created? What was their mission?




I didn't realize these people were different people with different ranks in different armies who lived at different times. I also just found that Lynndie England doesn't have a penis and Jaeger didn't have a cell phone. Of course there's no comparison. In the world of holocaust scholarship, the only time valid comparisons between different objects can be made is when the different objects are the same.

What are you trying to say? That Graner and England are evidence of the American plan to exterminate all the Arabs?

Argument from incoherence?

 

[triforcharity]

Oh. OK. So the Jew might not be lying. It might be that he simply doesn't know what he's talking about?

Why don't you refer to him/her as a person? Or an author? Why must you refer to this person as a "Jew"? That just sounds.......prejudice.

 

[LemmyCaution]

According to Lemmycaution, "indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews" is a specific detail?!?!? I know you guys like to keep everything about the holocaust as fuzzy as possible but really?

I summarized the details in Blaskowitz's note and, no, "indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews" was not in my summary; the slaughter of 10,000 Poles and Jews and specific responses, which Blaskowitz thought dangerous to Germany's interests, were in my summary. I know you're very frustrated with yourself at this point, but, really, try to be responsive to what people argue.

 

[Saggy]

Just out of curiosity, when did it become public knowledge that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was a fake, er, I mean 'reconstructed'. Who spilled the beans?

 

[Nick Terry]

Just out of curiosity, when did it become public knowledge that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was a fake, er, I mean 'reconstructed'. Who spilled the beans?

this has been answered already. Jan Sehn's investigative report, published in 1946, stated that Krema I was converted to an air raid shelter in 1944.

So this has been known ever since the end of the war. That's why your gambit is laughed at.

 

[Saggy]

this has been answered already. Jan Sehn's investigative report, published in 1946, stated that Krema I was converted to an air raid shelter in 1944.

So this has been known ever since the end of the war. That's why your gambit is laughed at.

Er, 'converted into an air raid shelter'? Good Lord man, can you at least pretend to have a shred of honesty and integrity for one moment?