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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Sorry, that's not an answer.
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Yes, it is. Perhaps not the specific answer you wanted, but it fully answers your demand "to find an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like."
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You said: "Klee, in "The Good Old Days" cites a report from Johannes Blaskowitz on the very first page of the main part of the book which speaks of the indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews."
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And so he did.
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"Indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews" isn't specific enough, unless the report from Blaskowitz was nothing more than zb 'I am pleased to report the indiscriminate slaughter of Jews qua Jews.'
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How is the specificity of what was said changed by what else the quote may contain?
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Anything there about the method of killing?
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No, but since this was Poland, and fairly early on (and since a major part of Blaskowitz' complaint is the involvement of the Army) it can be assumed the method was mass shooting.

What *is* mentioned is that what is happening is an atrocity, a slaughter and a crime which is brutalizing the Germans forced to watch it happen.
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I prefer a killing method that is diabolical yet breathtakingly inefficient but whatever you can find is OK by me.
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While rational people would prefer that the killing not have happened at all.
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Just remember, it's a specific quote the from the report that you can link to a specific fact endorsed by Klee in his book.
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Once again, the report as cited and as whole, is endorsed by Klee since it is offered without commentary of any kind.
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Concede the other points? I pointed out where you dismissed the importance of accuracy in the land of holocaust scholarship in separate post.
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... and were corrected on the matter, making this a lie twice over.
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I don't think there were any other points that any relevance. I mean, once you reject the value of truth in historical discourse I don't know how any point you might make would be relevant.
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Well, since I did not reject it, the other points stand.



Do you really not understand how transparent your attempt to twist my words into "falsus in uno" is? The world isn't black and white. One can (and often does with eyewitness testimony) say "this specific detail is wrong" without indicting the testimony as a whole, especially when the rest is supported by unrelated evidence including the testimony of others.
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Why would I look into something I don't care about? Especially since Team holocaust has said it doesn't matter if eyewitness testimony is accurate or truthful?
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There is no "Team Holocaust", and no one I know of (other than deniers) endorses the 'falsus in uno' viewpoint.
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The Jaeger report is allegedly a report of Einsatzgruppen activity, right? Why were the Einsatzgruppen created? What was their mission?
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You don't know these basic details about the EG, yet still sneer at the Jaeger report?

What happened to not commenting on things about which you have no knowledge?

There is nothing "alleged" about that report, save in what passes for the minds of deniers.
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Why would I look into something I don't care about? Especially since Team holocaust has said it doesn't matter if eyewitness testimony is accurate or truthful?
First, you have expended an awful lot of words, for some purpose, on a topic you supposedly don't care about - even concocting erroneous theories about it and making up what you call "Team Holocaust" in the process. Second, no one has made an argument that eyewitness testimony need not be accurate - since you allege this, show where someone wrote that. At the same time, you hoaxsters have demonstrated your willingness to lie about dates, make claims without backing them up, and even doctoring witness statements.

The Jaeger report is allegedly a report of Einsatzgruppen activity, right? Why were the Einsatzgruppen created? What was their mission?
The Jaeger Report is not alleged; it is a report on the activities of a commando and its associated squads, written by SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger, commander Einsatzkommando 3, under the command of Einsatzgruppe A, whose leader, SS-Brigadeführer Walter Stahlecker, filed a report on the activities of EG-A in the Baltics, consolidating information for Lithuania from the Jaeger report (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61055).

The Einsatzgruppen were first created IIRC to operate in the Sudetenland crisis, where two were formed in case of an attack on Germany; no attack forthcoming, they were assigned to operate within Czechoslovakia, confiscating documents and arresting up to 6000 Czechs, in Aktion Gitter, targeting people who might oppose the German occupation; these were mostly leftists and Germans who'd fled to Prague, that is, Czechs thought possibly to be politically dangerous to Reich ambitions in Czechoslovakia. Several thousand such people were arrested with many expelled from the country and many sent to concentration camps. The second commander of the security police concerned, installed I believe in spring 1939, was named Walter Stahlecker.

Einsatzgruppen were also formed for the invasion of Poland that fall, where 7 EGs with 2700 men operated at the outset. In September Heydrich stated the goal that "the leading elements of Polish society should be rendered harmless" and clarified in October that to do this his men were carrying out a "liquidation of leading Poles" that should conclude by November. The formal mission of the EGs was to act against "elements hostile to the Reich and anti-German in enemy territory behind the front line." Heydrich described their mission as "extremely radical" and said that they would "render impotent" the "leading stratum in Poland." Before the attack, Germans estimated that up to 30,000 Poles would be arrested and sent to concentration camps. In the line with this, the EGs took action against intellectual leaders, Catholic clergy, aristocrats, and Jews thought to represent the possible leaders of opposition to the German occupation and whose names had been listed by the SD. Already in Poland the lines between saboteur/partisan/Franc-Tireur and intellectual/clergy/Jew were being blurred by the Nazis. The EG leaders were given some latitude on exact liquidation methods, which did not stop with arresting those on the "enemies" lists; many suspects were shot on the spot, without investigation, let alone arrest and trial. Often, the EGs they worked with the Selbstschutz, armed units recruited from among local ethnic Germans. Using the Bromberg incident as pretext, they carried out a far-ranging action in October called the Intelligentsia Operation, murdering 1000s of teachers, officials, clergy, landowners, members of nationalist groups, and Jews - but also including asocials, prostitutes, and Gypsies. They also supported Wachsturmbann Eimann in murdering almost 8000 so-called incurables taken from mental hospitals in a Polish extension of T-4. The actions of Heydrich's EGs in Poland were so egregious that Wehrmacht leaders (yes, Blaskowitz among them) protested the atrocities - taking their complaints to von Brauchitsch and directly to Himmler as well. EGs also operated in the Balkans in spring 1941, arresting emigres, saboteurs, terrorists, Communists, and Jews.

Third, Einsastzgruppen were formed for Operation Barbarossa. The framework for the invasion of the USSR and the war was laid down by Hitler himself in early spring when he told his generals that the war would be a clash between two ideologies requiring the annihilation of the leadership of the USSR, defined as the Judeo-Bolshevik intelligentsia (in order to crush the USSR and take over its western areas). As early as February 1941 Keitel (head of the Wehrmacht High Command) was describing the role of Himmler's units as exercising "special responsibilities in the zone of army operations" that came "at the Fuhrer's request" to help prepare the country for German rule.

Another aspect in background of the mission of the EGs was the military's concerns not to be implicated in the "radical" nature of the special tasks targeting leadership groups and others in the Soviet Union; therefore, formal agreements between Heydrich and the military leadership were reached. These agreements set down guidelines for the EGs in the campaign against the USSR. The March draft agreement discussed "identification and combating of subversive activities against the Reich" and that Heydrich would have authority to order "executive measures against the civilian population," although, again, latitude would be given to commanders of the EGs as to precise methods for carrying out these measures. The EGs would act in the rear areas on their own responsibility but with support from the Wehrmacht. Relevant planning documents include a request from Goering for Heydrich to list targeted groups of victims so that the army leaders would "understand who they will be putting up against the wall." The final agreement between Himmler and the army was signed in April. Heydrich briefed EG leaders (Walter Stahlecker, as noted, being the leader of EG-A for the Baltics) in two meetings in June. Postwar testimony is unclear on how the targeted groups were described. Heydrich also wrote a summary of his orders, which described the EGs task as "politically pacifying" occupied territory by means of "ruthless severity"; he singled out some Jews as a special group to be targeted, naming "all Jews in the service of the Party and state" (this imprecisely defined group would be broader than on face value given Nazi ideological perceptions of Jews and their concept of Judeo-Bolshevism - but it is not yet targeting all Jews or even all male Jews). Heydrich wrote of the targeted potential enemies (including Comintern officials, CPSU officials, even lower level CPSU operatives, people's commissars, demagogues, saboteurs and partisans, radical elements) being "eliminated." The special tasks of the EGs in Operation Barbarossa, as in Poland but more radically in Barbarossa, were to eliminate groups of people who presented real and potential or suspected threats to the German occupation, and these groups included Jews, with the question of which Jews expanding through time. I have written a recent previous post on the way in which these political special tasks assigned the EGs were carried out and expanded once the invasion took place and operations began.

I didn't realize these people were different people with different ranks in different armies who lived at different times. I also just found that Lynndie England doesn't have a penis and Jaeger didn't have a cell phone. Of course there's no comparison. In the world of holocaust scholarship, the only time valid comparisons between different objects can be made is when the different objects are the same.
Your sense of humor, I see, is every bit as poor as your skill in making comparisons. No, you aren't funny or clever, and your lack of a sense of humor doesn't excuse your trying to compare the authority of two individuals with a rank just above private with a commander of a special task force ordered to eliminate Communists and Jews deemed threats to German occupation and given responsibility to recommend, plan, and carry out actions, including murders, against these targeted groups over a broad region.

What are you trying to say? That Graner and England are evidence of the American plan to exterminate all the Arabs?
Don't be so dense. I am making it obvious, based on rank, responsibility, nature of crimes, numbers of victims, etc, that your comparison of the EGs to Abu Ghraib was stupid.

So, we still haven't heard from you on how the Jaeger Report is supposed to have described anti-partisan campaigns, was, you say, written in the language of ethnic cleansing, or allegedly represented a small-scale rogue operation. I was very specific in explaining why you were wrong on these points.

Last, your continued fixation on Pesye Schloss's shoes, to the detriment of your stating your views on all the evidence for mass murder at Ponar, is making you look dumb and dumber. I'm not going to repeat all the arguments about the GP action, which you also continue to ignore in order to harp on one point, taken out of the context of the diverse evidence, but I am going to ask you again why, other than lack of interest, you can't seem to compare the sources for this action.
 
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That link doesn't explain the glass window. David Cole recanted because of threats from the JDL. The current JDL website doesn't have links to the terrorist campaign they instigated against him anymore. But you can find remnants of it on the old JDL website that is archived at the Wayback Machine.
Here is how David Thompson over at Axis History Forum brought an end to Saggy's attempt to troll the Majdaenk window in 2008. I think it's a pretty neat depiction of the methodology behind the trolling:
Just as a general observation, historians usually avoid reasoning backwards from assumptions based on the present, as Saggy has done here and in the Auschwitz thread at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143240 . That's because the method is . . . well, backwards. The perils of the approach are obvious -- it might lead someone to conclude that the battle of Gettysburg was a hoax because the present terrain features of the land don't correspond with the 1863 descriptions, so the 1863 descriptions must be bogus.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143258
 
Here is how David Thompson over at Axis History Forum brought an end to Saggy's attempt to troll the Majdaenk window in 2008. I think it's a pretty neat depiction of the methodology behind the trolling:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143258

The hoax Majdanek gas chamber is prima facie evidence of an ongoing hoax, which is perfectly obvious because the room has a large unbarred plate glass window. The argument given at the link above gives the argument in detail, and in addition has other picture of the building housing the hoax gas chamber give some context for the room. David Thomson's 'argument' is the same sort of idiocy prevalent here.

Pics of the building containing the Majdanek hoax gas chamber ...

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/MAJD3.htm

The AxisHistory gurus were so unsuccessful using standard Zionist debate tactics, i.e insulting me and any suggestion of common sense, that they banned me.
 
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Can you show the "chain of custody" for this structure at Majdanek, by which I mean its detailed history and documented uses (I don't mean what your guides or memorial site brochures say), as you all need also do with the Auschwitz I reconstruction if you don't want to make the bereft argument, as one of you recently has, that "it's reasonable to assume" that you can use a reconstruction to understand the original, without any need to examine the original and the extent to which there is fidelity in the reconstruction.

"It simply is" or "It just has to be" or "It's prima facie evidence" is not an explanation that will convince people who aren't convinced of your pov. To convince others, you need to provide documented details and specifics - and by this I do not mean altered statements, fictitious dates, claims without sourcing, made up addresses, and the other crap you all specialize in.

Note: For the record, AHF shouldn't ban people for ignorance, in my opinion.
 
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Pics of the building containing the Majdanek hoax gas chamber ...

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/MAJD3.htm
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This is the direct link to the picture about which Saggs is whining. Assuming 10' ceilings, looks to me like that window's sill is at about 7'. Given that they were already weak from starvation and crappy living conditions, just what do you expect that the victims would be able to do with that window?

And what about this? Why would a delousing chamber need a peephole?

Or this? Given that HCN is lighter than air, tossing Zyklon in from the top onto unmoving objects would not be terribly efficient.

Or this? Were the lice trying to claw their way out?
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The AxisHistory gurus were so unsuccessful using standard Zionist debate tactics, i.e insulting me and any suggestion of common sense, that they banned me.
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No, they banned you because you refused to acknowledge points like those above (just like you are about to do) and simply parroted the same lies over and over.

Just like you do here.
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It doesn't. It says his recantation is evidence of the power of the Jewish Defense League. But that's obviously a reference to the work done by the University outreach side of the JDL that does all the original research and publishes all those scholarly articles, sponsors the annual conference and all those semiannual seminars for the academic community that makes the JDL the number one source of information about the holocaust. 'Irv Rubin's Brain Boys'--that's what they call themselves--obviously showed David Cole the evidence he needed to see to answer all of his questions about Auschwitz. So David Cole recanted. I just wish David Cole would share that knowledge with the rest of us.

Sounds all so...unproven.

I can provide conjecture from the fragment you provided also:

Cole recanted his story, and was still getting death threats from disturbed people reading what was posted on the internet. Therefore he wanted it removed to keep from getting death threats from disturbed people.
 
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Cole recanted his story, and was still getting death threats from disturbed people reading what was posted on the internet.

Are you afraid to name names? TRB? Wroclaw? Nick Terry? Who were the culprits?
 
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Yes, it is. Perhaps not the specific answer you wanted, but it fully answers your demand "to find an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like."
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And so he did.
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How is the specificity of what was said changed by what else the quote may contain?
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No, but since this was Poland, and fairly early on (and since a major part of Blaskowitz' complaint is the involvement of the Army) it can be assumed the method was mass shooting.

What *is* mentioned is that what is happening is an atrocity, a slaughter and a crime which is brutalizing the Germans forced to watch it happen.
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While rational people would prefer that the killing not have happened at all.
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Once again, the report as cited and as whole, is endorsed by Klee since it is offered without commentary of any kind.
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... and were corrected on the matter, making this a lie twice over.
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Well, since I did not reject it, the other points stand.



Do you really not understand how transparent your attempt to twist my words into "falsus in uno" is? The world isn't black and white. One can (and often does with eyewitness testimony) say "this specific detail is wrong" without indicting the testimony as a whole, especially when the rest is supported by unrelated evidence including the testimony of others.
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That's what I thought. You're unable to link any specific claim by any specific witness to any specific fact endorsed by any specific historian.
 
Here is how David Thompson over at Axis History Forum brought an end to Saggy's attempt to troll the Majdaenk window in 2008. I think it's a pretty neat depiction of the methodology behind the trolling:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143258

I guess David Thompson doesn't understand that Gettysburg and Madjanek are separated in time by nearly a century, are located on different continents, rose to prominence for completely different reasons involving unrelated nationalities and are currently maintained for the purpose of memorializing different historical events with no overlap of the people involved. Thus, the comparison is false and meaningless.
 
The hoax Majdanek gas chamber is prima facie evidence of an ongoing hoax, which is perfectly obvious because the room has a large unbarred plate glass window. The argument given at the link above gives the argument in detail, and in addition has other picture of the building housing the hoax gas chamber give some context for the room. David Thomson's 'argument' is the same sort of idiocy prevalent here.

Pics of the building containing the Majdanek hoax gas chamber ...

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/resource/gallery/MAJD3.htm

The AxisHistory gurus were so unsuccessful using standard Zionist debate tactics, i.e insulting me and any suggestion of common sense, that they banned me.


Inmates selected for gassing were given showers first. The Nazis discovered that Zyclon B gas, an insecticide, was more effective on warm, moist bodies. Inmates were given a shower and then they were told to take another shower?!?! We know that with the holocaust, it doesn't matter if a lie is promoted as the truth. But can't they make up stuff that at least sounds logical?
 
I guess David Thompson doesn't understand that Gettysburg and Madjanek are separated in time by nearly a century, are located on different continents, rose to prominence for completely different reasons involving unrelated nationalities and are currently maintained for the purpose of memorializing different historical events with no overlap of the people involved. Thus, the comparison is false and meaningless.
I guess you don't understand that historians, whether examining the American Civil War or World War II, try to get as close to originals as they can. When they want the assistance of models and replicas, they do not rely on popular memorial sites but proceed from original plans, contemporary witness observations, diagrams etc created at the time or from memory - cross correlated and (this is the point) documented and explained, this being exactly what you lot have failed to do here. Once again you guys seize upon a detail - a single data point - without putting it into context. Your method works for nothing, at no time, not for the 1860s and not for the 1940s.
 
That's what I thought. You're unable to link any specific claim by any specific witness to any specific fact endorsed by any specific historian.
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...except for the teeny tiny fact that I did...
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Sounds all so...unproven.

I can provide conjecture from the fragment you provided also:

Cole recanted his story, and was still getting death threats from disturbed people reading what was posted on the internet. Therefore he wanted it removed to keep from getting death threats from disturbed people.

Your conjecture is not inaccurate. There's more to the story, however, that you could learn by looking at more than the fragments of a fifteen year old webpage.
 
Inmates were given a shower and then they were told to take another shower?!?! We know that with the holocaust, it doesn't matter if a lie is promoted as the truth. But can't they make up stuff that at least sounds logical?
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You don't know? So it was an absolute lie that when you claimed not to discuss things about which you have no knowledge.

Learn a bit about Majdanek and get back to us, hmmmn?
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Your conjecture is not inaccurate. There's more to the story, however, that you could learn by looking at more than the fragments of a fifteen year old webpage.
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Do tell. And don't forget that whole, you know, proof thingy...
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...except for the teeny tiny fact that I did...
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Leaving aside the odd notion that historians endorse testimonies, Blaskowitz's note dated February 1940 (Dogzilla is apparently allergic to actually reading and discussing documents) explains the officer's approval of German anti-partisan operations - but then makes the point that "there is a danger emerging" from the conduct of the Germans (EGs) toward the Polish population, a danger of atrocities undermining the very operations of which Blaskowitz approved.

Blaskowitz specifies his concern as follows:

- "It is wholly misguided to slaughter 10,000 Jews and Poles as is happening at the moment"; the note doesn't say how Blaskowitz knows about this slaughter - only that the slaughter, with at least 10,000 Polish and Jewish victims, is occurring and is not a positive development

- the slaughter has certain negative effects: 1) fueling Allied propaganda, which he describes says had "hitherto covered only a fraction of what has actually occurred," 2) stirring, because of the public nature of the atrocities, "religious Poles" to view Germans with "disgust" and to develop "a great sense of pity for the Jewish population," 3) making the tasks of the Wehrmacht more difficult as Poles lost respect for the Germans, and 4) causing "the worst damage," namely demoralization of the German troops, which Blaskowitz described as "the tremendous brutalization and moral depravity, which is spreading among precious German manpower, like an epidemic"

- specific criticism of "high-ranking SS and police officials" who "openly praise acts of violence and brutality"

To make clear the silly vapidity of Dogzilla's game with this - after all he had stated
Now, all you need to do is find an historian who endorses ANY specific detail found in ANY specific holocaust survivor or perpetrator testimony so we can see what such an "endorsement" looks like.

TSR was not the only person to reply with a specific example. Earlier (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7883859&postcount=8603), I also replied to this bizarre, uninformed "challenge" in terms of the ongoing discussion of Ponar executions, mentioning several testimonies used by Arad and such specific details in these testimonies as names of some survivors, where survivors were taken, how people learned of survivor experiences, how victims were rounded up in Vilna and how they were taken to Ponar, the killing process, who commanded the executions and who carried them out, and so on.

Since he is neither interested in nor knowledgeable about open-air shootings - his ignorance however not keeping him from making categorical statements and engaging in blanket denial - Dogzilla hasn't come to grips with either Blaskowitz's readily available notes on Poland or survivor, perpetrator (and bystander) sources for open-air shootings in Lithuania.

I can't discern rhyme or reason in Dogzilla's repetitions of "no, you didn't" when manifestly he was immediately presented with two historians, out of thousands of possible examples, making use of witness testimony to present or construct their understanding of events. Perhaps Dogzilla has some private meaning for such words as endorse, historian, detail, and testimony. It is hard to fathom where he thinks he is going.
 
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