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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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I have demurred because, as I have said, it's not a topic I know alot about. I don't want to Breslau or TSR and start popping off about something I don't know anything about. I have read bits and pieces of the Einsatzgruppen reports that have been referenced in this and other threads. But, no, I don't have drawer full of them that pull out every once in a while. As I had said earlier, I assumed shootings in the East--except for Babi Yar--were fairly well documented.

If you accept the Einsatzgruppen Reports as genuine then you have to accept 33 000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar - it is quite explicitly stated in 2 daily reports and one monthly summary (for October).

If you accept documents coming out of the Soviet bloc as unambiguously genuine then you have to accept Ponary and the various Jaeger body counts of around 133 000 Jews shot in Baltics by Einsatzgruppe A to 31 January 1941.
 
. . . It wasn't until the Pesye Schloss discussion that I realized how pathetic the documentation might be for the holocaust by bullets part of the holocaust.
Explain "pathetic" in this case, accounting for, as I asked in another post, Kruk's Vilna journal (and the witnesses whose testimony he summarizes); the Polish journalist Sakowicz's diary of Ponar; the report filed by Karl Jaeger; Dworzecki's testimony; Rudashevski's diary; Balberyszki's memoir; and the other diaries, trial results, and witness testimony summarized in Arad and other secondary sources. Until you can do this, your choice of words makes you look not only foolish but flippant.
 
Or, Dogzilla, you could help one member here falsify statements from Peter Longerich, mis-date German reports, etc. If you accept his insinuation above, for example, you will help him manufacture a case that the Ereignismeldungen have something todo with "documents coming out of the Soviet bloc."

Duly noted is your silence on the Jaeger Report, which rubbishes your "no documents" claims.

Duly noted is your silence on Jews shot at Vilna not in retaliation for the murder of a German soldier, as you implied was the case with Eastern shootings, of which you yourself say you're not familiar.

Duly noted is your silence on the doctoring of Longerich's statement by one of your cohorts.

Which does make me wonder why you hold views and advance claims about something you yourself admit you aren't knowledgeable. Prejudice? Knee-jerk reaction? Wishful thinking? Laziness? Why?
 
So after reading this
I have demurred because, as I have said, it's not a topic I know alot about
I realize that I can translate this command from Dogzilla
And ferchrissakes, stop offering findings of fact from the judgement of a post-war war crimes trial as documentary evidence of anything--show us the evidence that the court relied upon to determine the finding of fact
more accurately like this: "And ferchrissakes, stop offering findings of fact from the judgement of a post-war war crimes trial because I don't know much about these things, although I spout off on them and don't intend to listen to you or anyone else to find out about them -- and please don't show us the evidence that the court relied upon to determine the finding of fact or any other evidence about matters on which I am ill-informed, as these may unsettle my deeply held but groundless views." Phew. It's the "ferchrissakes" that makes the statement triply absurd. Glad for the translator, Dogzilla.
 
Yes. All bald men who smoke cigarettes should be deported. Unless....is that a doobie he's smoking? If he's smoking weed, he can stay. What kind of a question is that?
"Rathenau's been shot. I'm glad. Uncle Ernst is too. He was a scoundrel, but an able one, otherwise we would never have got rid of him. . . . The identity of Rathenau's murderers is known--the C[onsul] Organization. Awful if it all comes out." Tagebuch Himmler, June 1922.

Lovely people, those.
 
If you accept the Einsatzgruppen Reports as genuine then you have to accept 33 000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar - it is quite explicitly stated in 2 daily reports and one monthly summary (for October).

An Einsatzgruppen report could be genuine but false or inaccurate. As in, a German commander in the field wants to impress his superiors so he inflates the numbers in his report. That is, hypothetically speaking, how a report could be genuine but not reflect reality. If there are Einsatzgruppen reports that explicitly state that 33,000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar and there is no evidence of 33,000 Jews having been buried at Babi Yar, the reports aren't accurate.

Do these reports indicate WHY these Jews were shot?


If you accept documents coming out of the Soviet bloc as unambiguously genuine then you have to accept Ponary and the various Jaeger body counts of around 133 000 Jews shot in Baltics by Einsatzgruppe A to 31 January 1941.

If I accepted all documents coming out of the Soviet bloc as unambiguously genuine, I would have to accept nearly every aspect of the holocaust. Even parts that the holoscholars today don't accept. I won't go so far as to dismiss every document coming out of the Soviet bloc but I certainly won't accept them as unambiguously genuine.
 
Or, Dogzilla, you could help one member here falsify statements from Peter Longerich, mis-date German reports, etc. If you accept his insinuation above, for example, you will help him manufacture a case that the Ereignismeldungen have something todo with "documents coming out of the Soviet bloc."

Duly noted is your silence on the Jaeger Report, which rubbishes your "no documents" claims.

Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to a state policy of physical extermination of the Jews? Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to gas chambers?


Duly noted is your silence on Jews shot at Vilna not in retaliation for the murder of a German soldier, as you implied was the case with Eastern shootings, of which you yourself say you're not familiar.

Duly noted is your silence on the doctoring of Longerich's statement by one of your cohorts.

Which does make me wonder why you hold views and advance claims about something you yourself admit you aren't knowledgeable. Prejudice? Knee-jerk reaction? Wishful thinking? Laziness? Why?

You've duly noted my silence on these specific topics. What makes you think that by remaining silent, I am holding views and advancing claims about something which I admit I am not knowledgeable? Remaining silent is what I do when I don't think I have anything to add to the conversation.
 
Explain "pathetic" in this case, accounting for, as I asked in another post, Kruk's Vilna journal (and the witnesses whose testimony he summarizes); the Polish journalist Sakowicz's diary of Ponar; the report filed by Karl Jaeger; Dworzecki's testimony; Rudashevski's diary; Balberyszki's memoir; and the other diaries, trial results, and witness testimony summarized in Arad and other secondary sources. Until you can do this, your choice of words makes you look not only foolish but flippant.

Keep trying to spin it as a victory. Pesye Schloss was brought up as an example of one single credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust. That her holocaust experiences mesh with that of other witnesses is a given. Her credibility must be assessed by looking at other aspects of her testimony or what is known about her. Does she also say she swallowed and defecated diamonds repeatedly? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was among a line of Jews slowly shuffling toward a flaming pit and then falling in? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was one of the Lebensborn children who was operated on by Dr. Mengele at Dachau? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Is the only reference to this person found in the diary where she is quoted telling about her holocaust experiences? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit.

It might help you if you read Mischa and noted everything she says she experienced that can be corroborated by other "witness" testimony.
 
An Einsatzgruppen report could be genuine but false or inaccurate. As in, a German commander in the field wants to impress his superiors so he inflates the numbers in his report. That is, hypothetically speaking, how a report could be genuine but not reflect reality. If there are Einsatzgruppen reports that explicitly state that 33,000 Jews were killed at Babi Yar and there is no evidence of 33,000 Jews having been buried at Babi Yar, the reports aren't accurate.

Do these reports indicate WHY these Jews were shot?




If I accepted all documents coming out of the Soviet bloc as unambiguously genuine, I would have to accept nearly every aspect of the holocaust. Even parts that the holoscholars today don't accept. I won't go so far as to dismiss every document coming out of the Soviet bloc but I certainly won't accept them as unambiguously genuine.
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I see a lot of questions above, and a lot of "ifs" -- but weren't you just running from uncomfortable topics with the excuse that you don't discuss things you don't know about?

Which is it: do you or don't you? If you don't, shut up about Babi Yar until you *do* know what you're talking about. If you do, why should anyone do anything more than point out that once again, you're arguing from ignorance, and laugh?

Make a point, and support it with fact. I double dog dare you.
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Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to a state policy of physical extermination of the Jews? Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to gas chambers?
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Well, it does take some thinking, but an official report explicitly and consistently singling out a specific group of people as worthy of separate mention as having been executed while not stating "in furtherance of the State policy of eliminating the Jew" is a strong indication that such executions need to be separately enumerated -- why is that, if there were no such policy?

And why would one *expect* the EG to talk about gas chambers?
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You've duly noted my silence on these specific topics. What makes you think that by remaining silent, I am holding views and advancing claims about something which I admit I am not knowledgeable? Remaining silent is what I do when I don't think I have anything to add to the conversation.
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But just above, all you are "adding" to the conversation is asking questions which expose that ignorance, and passively aggressively draw conclusions from you lack of knowledge.

So: do you discuss topics you know nothing about, or not? This entire message is an exercise in "do" except for the unconvincing whine that you do not.
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Does she also say ... ?
Does she also say ... ?
Does she also say ... ?
Is the only reference to this person ... ?
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You mean you don't know? Didn't you *just* spend considerable time whining that you don't discuss topics on which you have no knowledge?
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Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to a state policy of physical extermination of the Jews? Does the Jaeger report unambiguously refer to gas chambers?
The Jaeger report concerns the murder of Jews in Lithuania in fall 1941, before such time as gas chambers were in use, the first being Chelmno, coming into use after the report was made. Now you ask about whether the report mentions a state policy of mass murder, but I was responding to these brave words which you had written:
If you don't want us to say there are no documents, stop saying there are documents. When asked for a document that unambiguously says "extermination," don't offer one that says "special treatment." If you say that a German saying "ausrotten" in connection with the Jews is irrefutable proof of the intent to exterminate all the Jews, explain why Americans saying "exterminate" in connection with the Japanese is just flowery language. Don't say that the documentary evidence of a planned ethnic cleansing is evidence of an extermination. Don't say that one ambiguous word that appears once in one memo is the smoking gun that proves gas chambers at Auschwitz. Don't quote the opinion of a court that convicted members of the SS of treating Jews inhumanely as evidence that there was a policy of physically annihilating all the Jews. Don't offer a report that says X number of Jews were shot in retaliation for the murder of a German soldier as evidence that all the Jews were going to be killed. And ferchrissakes, stop offering findings of fact from the judgement of a post-war war crimes trial as documentary evidence of anything--show us the evidence that the court relied upon to determine the finding of fact.
The Jaeger Report rubbishes your post, so now you want to add in "gas chambers" and "state policy." Afraid not. You asked for 1) a document, 2) a document that mentions extermination without using terms like ethnic cleansing or special treatment, 3) a killing that is not in response to the murder of a German soldier. Your conditions were met. Of course, you now add new ones. Jaeger's report on "Secret Reich Business!" does, of course, refer to a policy of the state in eliminating most of the Jews in his sphere of operation, using the phrases "goal of making Lithuania free of Jews" and "decision to systematically make every district free of Jews' and reporting agreements reached with the civil administration and military on the numbers to be killed that fall. The report came before historians conclude there had been a decision in favor of a European-wide extermination of Jews. This reference is not phrased the way you want it, but it is there nonetheless - for that area at that time.

Your faffing about here is baffling. Are you denying the mass murders of Jews in Lithuania as reported by Jaeger? Or are you denying other mass murders of Jews in other places and times? Or are you denying any mass murders of Jews at all committed by the Nazis?

Or are you trying to establish an ultra-intentionalist strawman? It would serve you better to argue against views held by the people you argue against, you know.

You've duly noted my silence on these specific topics. What makes you think that by remaining silent, I am holding views and advancing claims about something which I admit I am not knowledgeable? Remaining silent is what I do when I don't think I have anything to add to the conversation.
What makes me think that you are advancing views and opinions on matters you yourself say you aren't knowledgeable about and which you refuse to engage on is, for example, your decision that the evidence for the open-air shootings in the East is "pathetic" based on Ponar - this word "pathetic" is offered without your ever explaining it, which explanation would require you to discuss Jaeger's report, Sakowicz's diary, Kruk's journal, and other evidence mentioned in this thread. You have no grounds, not having engaged the multiple sources and evidence, to declare the evidence "pathetic." That is pretty simple, that was already stated, and that puts you in a very bad light in terms of your openness, use of reason and evidence, consistency of standards, and good faith. Frankly.
 
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Keep trying to spin it as a victory. Pesye Schloss was brought up as an example of one single credible Jewish eyewitness to the holocaust.
I am not trying to spin anything as a victory. As I have said repeatedly, I do not engage in one witness, one at a time games playing; I offered Pesye Schloss (and originally with Yudis Trojak by the way) to open a discussion about the evidence, of which her recorded testimony is one strand, for a single act of mass murder carried out by the Nazis. So far, you refuse to engage in that discussion. That is a pity - and puts you, rather than the multiple strands of evidence for the murders at Ponar in early September 1941, in a bad light.

That her holocaust experiences mesh with that of other witnesses is a given.
No it isn't. That is established by examining her recorded testimony and other evidence. That her testimony matches with other sources is absolutely not a given but something that has to be shown, based on available sources. In fact, your saying this now shows that the discussion hasn't been a total waste of time.

Her credibility must be assessed by looking at other aspects of her testimony or what is known about her. Does she also say she swallowed and defecated diamonds repeatedly? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was among a line of Jews slowly shuffling toward a flaming pit and then falling in? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was one of the Lebensborn children who was operated on by Dr. Mengele at Dachau? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit.
She is not recorded as having said anything like any of this. Thus, on this score, her credibility cannot be said to take a hit. It is intact.

Is the only reference to this person found in the diary where she is quoted telling about her holocaust experiences? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit.
This assumption makes no sense. Her testimony is recorded in Kruk's diary with other testimony, from named and unnamed sources, all of it meshing. Kruk is shown to be a reliable reporter. In turn, the testimony recorded by Kruk meshes with the diary of Polish journalist Sakowicz, made independently. All this meshes with other diaries and memoirs and with post-war trial testimony. These all mesh with Jaeger's report. Is the testimony in Kruk definitive, perfect, iron-clad? No. Does its alignment with so many other sources make it valuable in determining what happened - in a word, credible? Yes.

(And, to be fair, you will have to acknowledge that Saggy's game was not about credibility - he made a positive charge that every single Jewish witness was a degenerate liar. You are rewording Saggy's game to try to make a point, I realize, but you are failing on both scores - fidelity to the game Saggy was playing and the larger question of how we can determine what happened at Ponar the first week of September.)

It might help you if you read Mischa and noted everything she says she experienced that can be corroborated by other "witness" testimony.
This irrelevant tangent has no bearing on what we are discussing here, as you cannot show anything in the specific passages under discussion in Kruk - summarizing three witnesses and some unnamed witnesses - comparable to what you are trying to claim. You are really desperate and flailing about at this point.
 
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You mean you don't know? Didn't you *just* spend considerable time whining that you don't discuss topics on which you have no knowledge?
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Of course he doesn't know . . . but that doesn't stop him from opining that the sources are "pathetic" and trying to set up an intentionalist strawman. The problem with the "reasonable denier" shtick is that it requires the poseur to actually appear to be reasonable.
 
Does she also say she swallowed and defecated diamonds repeatedly? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was among a line of Jews slowly shuffling toward a flaming pit and then falling in? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Does she also say she was one of the Lebensborn children who was operated on by Dr. Mengele at Dachau? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit. Is the only reference to this person found in the diary where she is quoted telling about her holocaust experiences? If yes, then her credibility takes a hit.

Out of curiosity, why would you consider the above situations to be "hits on credibility?"
 
This is a truly wonderful thread.

It means my great grandfather, the pacifist in a non-comabatant medical role, was not thoroughly scarred by what he encountered in the concentration camps, and did not return from the war haunted until his death by the depths humanity would sink to.


Unfortunately he lived in the real world, and was a part of the discovery of acts people here are denying. Thank you so much for making the ordeals of an innocent and kind man meaningless.
 
This is a truly wonderful thread.

It means my great grandfather, the pacifist in a non-comabatant medical role, was not thoroughly scarred by what he encountered in the concentration camps, and did not return from the war haunted until his death by the depths humanity would sink to.


Unfortunately he lived in the real world, and was a part of the discovery of acts people here are denying. Thank you so much for making the ordeals of an innocent and kind man meaningless.

That's odd since the Red Cross people of that era said OTHER FREAKING WISE.
 
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