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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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It must be clear that there were no gas chambers and that brutality against non-combatants is never acceptable.

The main reason the Germans were attempting to expel Jewish people from Europe was their communist leanings. The main problem being that non-communist Jewish people were loyal to Jewish communists over their country.
 
It must be clear that there were no gas chambers and that brutality against non-combatants is never acceptable.

The main reason the Germans were attempting to expel Jewish people from Europe was their communist leanings. The main problem being that non-communist Jewish people were loyal to Jewish communists over their country.
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They weren't trying to expel them, they were trying and nearly succeeded in killing them, which we are agreed is unacceptable.

The difference is, you seem to think that because it is unacceptable it never could have happened, while the rest of us live in the real world. And that Germany had the right to expel people because of a political ideology which you cannot even document the majority of whom shared. And to invade other countries, and do the same there.

But glad you admit that the Nazi caught up innocents in their nets, although we differ on why the nets were even in use.

Got that quote from an Israeli directed against American Jewry about the Shoah, or are you just going to pretend you didn't post that lie and then completely fail several attempts to support it, just like all of the other failed lies you've posted here?

And yet, we're supposed to believe that your only concern is the Truth, and that it's the Jews and Allies that are lying...
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=The main reason the Germans were attempting to expel Jewish people from Europe was their communist leanings. The main problem being that non-communist Jewish people were loyal to Jewish communists over their country.

And do you agree with that Nazi German assessment of the Jews?

That's a yes or no question; even you should be able to muster an answer to that question, if you have any guts.
 
It must be clear that there were no gas chambers and that brutality against non-combatants is never acceptable.

The main reason the Germans were attempting to expel Jewish people from Europe was their communist leanings. The main problem being that non-communist Jewish people were loyal to Jewish communists over their country.
Oh please. So, were the Jews (let's start with Reich Jews) all either communist in leaning or loyal to communists? Is that your opinion too? How did the Nazis determine this? And what is your evidence to show this? Are you "on board" with the Nazi agenda to expel Jews from the Reich because they were communist in leaning and/or loyalty?

Edit: My questions are in part the same as Wroclaw's, and since he got here first, we will await your reply to him on this before pursuing any further discussion.
 
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And while you're at it, Clayton, tell us whether this man:

Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L40010%2C_Walter_Rathenau.jpg


would have deserved to be deported, had he even survived to 1933.
 
And do you agree with that Nazi German assessment of the Jews?

That's a yes or no question; even you should be able to muster an answer to that question, if you have any guts.

I made my statement. You tell me why the Germans wanted Jewish people out of Europe.
 
And while you're at it, Clayton, tell us whether this man:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L40010%2C_Walter_Rathenau.jpg[/qimg]

would have deserved to be deported, had he even survived to 1933.

Henry Morgenthau, Jr.?
 
Henry Morgenthau, Jr.?
You're joking. You can't even read a link that ends with "Rathenau.jpg"?

I would bet you can't summarize National Socialist Jewish policies. (Do you realize that you wrote that "the Germans wanted Jewish people out of Europe"? Are you attributing the Holocaust to the German people as a whole?)
 
You're joking. You can't even read a link that ends with "Rathenau.jpg"?

I'm sure he can. However, in pretending he thinks it's a picture of Henry Morgenthau, Jr., he's probably trying to deflect the question of what the Germans did to the Jews by subtly implying that it was actually the poor Germans who were the real victims of World War II, because of a certain plan proposed byand named after that gentleman.
 

IIRC, Heddesheimer doesn't explain how a detailed holocaust was planned in advance and then implemented.


First, you need to modify your language as imprecise or vague words lead to imprecise and vague thoughts - the holocaust was not 'planned', the holocaust did not happen, there is not too much sense in referring to a plan of something that did not happen in a sentence implying that it did happen. I'm not joking here, there was no plan for the holocaust. You can research every event in Auschwitz, or the eastern front, and know all there is to know about these subjects, and still not have any inkling of any plan for a plan for the holocaust, because, as noted, the holocaust DID NOT HAPPEN.

So, of course Heddesheimer did not give a detailed plan for something that did not happen. He did not attempt to give such an account, and if he had it wouldn't have made any sense, as the holocaust, which did not happen, was certainly not planned circa 1920.

Recall, the holocaust is the systematic slaughter of six million Jews in Nazi gas chambers during WW II. Heddeshemier did not explain how this slaughter was planned and implemented. So your sentence is ... nonsensical .... it is misusing common words, or using them with something other than their dictionary definitions. Your sentence as written faults Heddesheimer for failing to give an detailed plan for the execution of the Jews, but that is not what you meant. It is very sloppy wording but what's worse it masks very sloppy thinking.

Do you see this?

First of all, imprecise or vague thinking would cause imprecise or vague wording. Imprecise or vague wording doesn't cause imprecise or vague thinking. Second of all, by your precise definition of the holocaust, everybody here is a holocaust denier. Nobody says the holocaust is the systematic slaughter of six million Jews in Nazi gas chambers during WWII.

The holocaust is what did not happen. The holohoax did happen. The holohoax is the systematic worldwide effort of organized Jewry to convince the world that the holocaust did happen, that is, it is a deliberate hoax. This is what Heddesheimer documents, that is, he documents the efforts of organized Jewry, in particular the World Jewish Congress and other Jewish organizations and individuals, to convince the world that the Jews were being slaughtered in Europe during World War ONE by publishing false accounts of these imaginary massacres. That IS the holohoax. Heddesheimer documents it with articles from the NYT, he reprints the articles, he names the names, he tells who planned it, and how it was implemented.

Then what he is doing is documenting how individual Jews and Jewish organizations in powerful positions spread disinformation throughout the twentieth century. That's not a Jewish conspiracy. And the disinformation that was published didn't always say Jews were being slaughtered. Sometimes they were in danger of being slaughtered. It didn't specifically say gas chambers. It didn't always say it was state-sponsored. It wasn't always Germany. IIRC it was Russia and Poland until 1933.

Reading the press during the twentieth century would give you the impression that the Jews of Europe were on the verge of annihilation. Their sky was always falling. If you pay attention to the annual reports published by the ADL, their sky is still always falling. That's not a conspiracy.

Jews are disproportionally represented in positions of power. They have a disproportionate share of the wealth. Why is that? Judaism values learning and scholarship. Kids who grow up in families that value learning and scholarship do well in school. Kids who do well in school get into better colleges. They graduate and get higher paying jobs with greater responsibility and power. That's not a conspiracy.

When I went to Philadelphia I visited Betsy Ross' house. I thought that the ceilings are awfully low but I didn't doubt that this was actually Betsy Ross' house. When I went to Auschwitz I saw a free standing chimney next to an air raid shelter and I believed it was a gas chamber because that's what I was told. I thought the place had a vague ersatz feel to it--kind of like Death Camp Land at Disneyworld--but I didn't think "this is a fake." I just thought something was not quite right. I saw some people there who were obviously Jewish. They were moved emotionally in a way that I was not. I seriously doubt they were laughing inside at how they tricked the stupid goyim as they shed their crocodile tears. There's no conspiracy whereby all the Jews in the world know that the holocaust is actually the holohoax. They believe it for the same reason non-Jews believe it: they're told it happened and they're not told some of the specific details that would make them question it.

If you believe there is a secret society of Jews behind the holocaust, explain how this conspiracy works. Explain how all the Jews in the world communicate with each other and coordinate their actions without the non-Jews finding out about it.

The most succinct account is provided in the Irving video linked earlier where he describes how Henry Morgenthau manipulated the War Refugee Board, an arm of the US government, into publishing as fact an UNDOCUMENTED and ANONYMOUS account of the slaughter of Jew in Nazi concentrations camps, that report having been supplied by the WORLD JEWISH CONGRESS. If you want to find the context of this report, which incidentally other departments of the US government knew to be pure BS, and the machinations of the Jews to control US policy regarding post war Europe and the Nuremberg trials, you'll need to read Butz who provides the best and practically only account. Many Jews participated in the creation of the hoax knowing with certainty that it was a pack of lies, this includes every Jew that was in the camps and survive and lied about it. Of course, now many Jews do not know that it is a hoax, but even they participate fully in the hoax by supporting the USHMM, ADL, B'nai B'rith, and their efforts to promote the hoax and to squelch to the point of serious jail time anyone who questions the hoax.

But if they're participating in a hoax without knowing it is a hoax, you can't accuse them of nefarious intent. If they're willing participants in a conspiracy to promote a hoax, by definition they have to know it is a hoax. The people behind the scenes who promote criminalizing questioning the holocaust should be aware that they're doing something that shouldn't need to be done. Truth doesn't need legislation. They are legitimate targets of your anger. So are the morons who deny holocaust denial legislation. But those are individuals. I wonder how many Jews in America are even aware that denial is illegal in other countries.

In short, you are spending all your time trying to understand what did and did not happen in the camps - this is admirable, but it is not the holocaust, the holocaust did not happen, and it is not the holohoax, because the holohoax happened outside the camps in the US government, at Nuremberg, in the World Jewish Congress, and in the NYT. If you want to understand the holohoax you have to study the HOLOHOAX, not the non-existent holocaust. See?

We're arguing semantics but that isn't surprising. Nobody--especially the holocaust promoters--can give you a definition of the holocaust. To me, the holocaust is what happened to the Jews in Europe during WWII. Part of that is knowing what happened in the camps and why the conditions were what they were. I know how the facts on the ground were twisted into what I think you call the holohoax. I just don't see an organized Jewish conspiracy behind it all. I see victorious Allies wanting to justify their anger towards the Germans. Jews were involved but it wasn't all the Jews and it wasn't only the Jews.


Yes, please do. Because I'm having trouble understanding how a Jewish conspiracy is necessary for the myth of the holocaust.


Good Lord, if it wasn't for organized Jewry the holohoax would collapse in a day.


Just how exactly does it all work?


Re-reading your post, I see you ignored the crux of my argument, which of course you had to, as it so completely demolishes the urban myth idiocy. That is the presentation to the public of the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz. How does it work? Ask F. Piper, the whole organization of the museum is public knowledge, their records are likely open, we know all we need to know about it, what they do, how they do it, who does what. The Auschwizm Musuem, or the USHMM, is the holohoax in action. It's not a secret. Look at the USHMM, how it was organzied, built, etc., and recall that it tells you the absurd and obvious lie that the hoax gas chamber at Auschwitz was used to kill Jews. The USHMM is the holohoax. The holohoax is not in the details of the camps in Europe in 1945, it is the operation of the USHMM RIGHT NOW. That is exactly how it works.

You see the gas chamber at Auschwitz as all the evidence you need of the hoax. I agree that it's pretty pathetic but that's because I am aware it is a fake. When I saw it 1992, I wasn't aware it was a fake. When I saw Dachau in 1980 I didn't question the gas chambers. A vague explanation of how these places worked was enough for me. If somebody had tried to explain how they disposed of all the bodies I might have been more skeptical. That's probably why they don't go into those details. I know how the USHMM, the SWMOT, and all the other holocaust remembrance icons promote the holocaust through emotion based tripe without any factual details. I know that the Jewish community supports these efforts. I just don't see an intentional conspiracy behind it all.

When I hear you say 'conspiracy' I think of something along the lines of an intelligent design behind the holocaust. I see the holocaust as evolutionary. If there was a conspiracy behind the holocaust or holohoax, when did they drop the steam chambers in favor of the gas chambers? Why did they give the steam chambers the IMT seal of approval to begin with? Why did they say a million and a half were murdered at Madjanek and then drop the death toll to somewhere around less than a hundred thousand or wherever it is today? Why did they say four and half million Allied nationals were murdered at Auschwitz during the Zyklon B trials and then drop the number to four million for about forty years before settling on one million or so. After the number was dropped to one million, why did they come up with the explanation that when it was four million, a quarter of the victims were Jewish but now that it's one million, all the victims were Jewish? And nobody ever believed it was four million anyway. Why were Jews turned into lampshades and bars of soap after the war but now nobody ever said they were? The holocaust has been in a state of constant flux from the beginning. I think if there was a conspiracy behind the holocaust it would have been thought out. We wouldn't see the holocaust industry playing whack-a-mole with the deniers like we do.
 
You're joking. You can't even read a link that ends with "Rathenau.jpg"?

You're at the top of your game today.

Are you attributing the Holocaust to the German people as a whole?

The Holocaust was the attempt to expel Jewish people from Europe.

Given that the German people hated Communists because of their well known and flaunted slaughter of Christians the German people were fine with expelling their agents.
 
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Then it should be no problem for you to *cite* these press reports, and how you know that they were written at the request of the WJC (which didn't even exist until 1936)

Let's see -- what was documentably happening to Germany's Jews at that time? The something something Laws? And then, a couple of years later, what was that Operation Tannebaum? Tanned Burger with fries? Something like that. What was *that* all about?
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Search the NYT archives for "six million" and "Jews" or various combinations during the years prior to the war. You'll find them. I'd link to them but many are paid content. Alot of the reports of millions Jews on the verge of extinction while the world slumbers involved Jews in Russia and Poland and it was happening for several decades prior to Hitler taking over.
 
Oh god, it's the bogus UFO comparison again. Look, if you can find:


  • lots and lots of documents written in Alpha Centauri
  • statements from aliens from Alpha Centauri who had done the probing
  • statements from other aliens from Alpha Centauri who witnessed the probing, but were only here to do a little shopping
  • physical evidence, including: abandoned alien anal probe centres, chemical residues compatible with alien anal probes and a big stock of alien anal probe lube, along with dump sites where probed humans were abandoned
then you can have the comparison. Until then, it doesn't work and only serves to make you look extremely silly. As in, talking out of your arse.

Are you saying that if we have elements of the holocaust that have left no physical traces and we don't have any eyewitness statements except those from Jewish victims, we don't accept those elements as true?
 
Dogzilla will now move the goalposts to gassing only. You probably forget that 'Holocaust' means something completely different to him than it does to sane people.

The goalpost remains exactly where it always has. How does evidence of Einsatzgruppen activity prove the gas chambers? Actually, how does evidence like Pesye Schloss prove Einsatzgruppen activity?:D
 
What does this mean? "Given that the German people hated Communists because of their well known and flaunted slaughter of Christians the German people were fine with expelling their agents." Flaunted slaughter?

Anyway, just out of curiosity what political parties received the 2nd and 3rd highest popular vote totals from the German people in the last parliamentary elections before Hitler was named chancellor, that is, in November 1932?
 
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The goalpost remains exactly where it always has. How does evidence of Einsatzgruppen activity prove the gas chambers? Actually, how does evidence like Pesye Schloss prove Einsatzgruppen activity?:D
If you had paid any attention to that discussion, and if you had looked at any of the corroborating sources, including Jaeger's report, you would not be asking such a stupid question and appending a smilie as though you had a worthwhile point.

When have the open-air shooting murders of the EGs, order police, Waffen-SS, and Wehrmacht in the East ever been used to prove the use of gas chambers? About one half the Jews killed in the Holocaust did not die in gas chambers, and some of those non-gas chamber extermination actions is what the EG trials had to do with.

Please try to make sense and handle more than one source at a time.
 
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