Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[TheRedWorm]

I am not well verse in this CF Larsen = "Saggy" hoax. Thus I am not able to comment on that. However, I offer you any number of non sequitors to prove that you are wrong. I win.

The tactics that the denialists employ is shockingly predictable in'nit? Welcome to the forum

 

[LemmyCaution]

Welcome CC82. At some point in this thread you will encounter a long list of books published since 2000, which Nick posted. On that list will be Saul Friedlander's 2 volumes called Nazi Germany and the Jews. The first volume covers 1933 to 1939 and the second volume covers the war years. The books are quite readable and give a comprehensive view of the Nazis in power with a focus on their Jewish policies. This would be my recommendation - and that you not be put off by 2 volumes.

This topic was discussed on another forum at this link:
http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/6786/Essential-reading?page=1#.Tu3pXCPOyAs
And a bit more specialized at this link: http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/7620/Collective-RODOH-Holocaust-bibliography?page=1#.Tu3qbiPOyAt

Many, many ideas on these threads. Let us know what you decide to read and how it goes.

To LemmeCaution, Nick Terry et al. Can you provide me a list of books thy chronicles the timeline of the holocaust? Books I can buy online, preferably.

My knowledge on the holocaust is limited to reading the diary of Anne Frank, Viktor Finkle's "Man's Search for Meaning" (he was an Austrian neurologist who was deported to Theresienstadt and acted as the camp psychiatrist) as well as what I learned from school.

My interest in WW2 was mainly in the causes leading up to the war as well as the war itself and not necessarily in the holocaust. I want to contribute to this thread but will wait until I have better knowledge of the subject.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks Nick. I ordered Friedleander and Browning's books. For under £20 I'd say it was a good deal. I'll hold off on Longerich until after I finish the other two. Sadly, I won't receive them until after Christmas.

Good plan, IMHO. Longerich is excellent, but you will want to read Friedlander and Browning before tackling Longerich.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Clearly you lie, as your link doesn't work. Therefore, I must conclude the holocaust never happened.




Btw, I'm just taking the piss. Don't quote mine me. (I'm looking at you saggy)

You have already gotten the gist of how they operate, quite clearly.

 

[Wroclaw]

And who bombed the supply lines?

If you kidnap someone and they die while in your custody, even if you didn't intend to kill them, that's still murder.

You know that, right?

 

[Saggy]

Thanks Nick. I ordered Friedleander and Browning's books. For under £20 I'd say it was a good deal. I'll hold off on Longerich until after I finish the other two. Sadly, I won't receive them until after Christmas.

You have been propagandized with the standard version of the holohoax since birth, so, just for fun, why not supplement your reading of 'scholarly' accounts to reinforce the standard version with some revisionists accounts, just to put a feathers weight on the other side of the balance to partially offset the 30 or so years of incessant propaganda.... I'd suggest

'The First Holocaust, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During WW One', by Don Heddesheimer

Comment: the title tells the whole story, valuable because of the NYT articles circa WWI documenting the first holohoax. Only takes a few hours to read.

'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' by Arthur Butz

Comment: This requires some effort, not a particularly easy read, but really the only book that documents the hoax itself, i.e. the machinations of the Jews to create the hoax, rather than the history of the camps.

Also watch the David Cole tour of Auschwitz and interview with Frantisek Piper.

Comment: One hour to watch, the hoax in a nutshell.

Watch selected videos from One Third of the Holoohax http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

Comment: The Bomba clip is especially absurd.

Review the Fundamentals of the Holohoax at
http://www.holohoax101.com

Comment: A long list of easy facts demonstrating the hoax, takes less than an hour to scan.

So, if you peruse Heddesheimer, scan Butz, watch a few vids on One Third of the Holohoax, study Cole and www.holohoax101.com for an hour each, you'll have invested 4 or 5 hours and will have gained some perspective on the hoax, and will hopefully be able to contribute something to this forum.

 

[Saggy]

Just stumbled over this thread and find it heartbreaking. I must be naive, I thought holocaust deniers were almost a myth, maybe only a handful of warped people who, if they just saw the facts, would realise their stupidity.

Now I feel I need to clean and disinfect my PC <shudder>.

Keep up the good work SpitfireIX. My dad had nightmares all his life from what he saw at Belsen, don't ever let anyone forget what happened to jews, gays, gypsies, dissenters et al.

Thank you.

x

joolz

You might be surprised to learn that there are now only six alleged 'death camps' and Belsen is not one of them. No one now claims that the Nazis attempted to exterminate Jews at Belsen.

The holohoax in the camps is now confined to Auschwitz, Majdanek, and four razed camps in Poland. The hoax has for all practical purposes evaoporated at Majdanek, That leaves 5.

 

[LemmyCaution]

So, if you peruse Heddesheimer, scan Butz, watch a few vids on One Third of the Holohoax, study Cole and www.holohoax101.com for an hour each, you'll have invested 4 or 5 hours and will have gained some perspective on the hoax, and will hopefully be able to contribute something to this forum.

CC82, Saggy's suggestion is a good one if you are interested in denial and its many failures.

Delving into the material he recommends would be instructive as to the shoddiness of denial and so-called revisionists' familiar techniques of distortion and misrepresentation.

Others have read this material in great depth, of course, and checking out something like http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/quick-links.html#debuv along with the One Third of the Holocaust videos will make for an interesting contrast. Butz's book is particularly terrible, in my opinion. I will be interested to hear your thoughts if you do take up Saggy's suggestion and check out some revisionist "works" beyond what you can read on this thread.

For my part, I'm a little surprised at what Saggy recommends because it is more or less self-debunking, but that's revisionism for you.

 

[TSR]

And who bombed the supply lines?

,
Ike didn't mention that any Nazi ever starved to death in Gotha nor even any bombing of supply lines, so by your own lights, those never happened.

And what does this have to do with either my or CC82's points?

Are you going to ever get around to telling us where that lie is on the page *you*cited?
,

 

[Cyrix686]

I believe holohoax101 is Saggy's website...

He might have defended his Butz book. Does he know that it was thoroughly taken apart?

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/10722/RODOH-Book-Club-Arthur-Butz-s--Hoax---Twentieth-Century

 

[TSR]

'The First Holocaust, Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During WW One', by Don Heddesheimer

Comment: the title tells the whole story, valuable because of the NYT articles circa WWI documenting the first holohoax. Only takes a few hours to read.

.
A few seconds, if one skips the lies.

You were asked long ago and far away to list these articles.

All Heddesheimer ever mentions from the NYT is a single oped piece that mentions a figure of 6 million Jews at risk, but also mentions -- in that same sentence, mind you -- 700k children.

But at least you were unintentionally honest enough to admit that none of your examples is in any way scholarly.

Such as...
.

'The Hoax of the Twentieth Century' by Arthur Butz

Comment: This requires some effort, not a particularly easy read, but really the only book that documents the hoax itself, i.e. the machinations of the Jews to create the hoax, rather than the history of the camps.

.
Which Jews, specifically and by name are those, Saggs? what *documentation* does Butz offer?

Answer: absolutely none.

Of course, CM will pretend this isn't the exact kind of behaviour zie whines about in others...
.

Also watch the David Cole tour of Auschwitz and interview with Frantisek Piper.

Comment: One hour to watch, the hoax in a nutshell.

.
David Cole? The guy that explicitly disavowed his earlier crap?

And it's Franciszek. Here, we the meticulous attention to such details as the truth which are the denier's stock in trade.

But do tell us: what is Piper's take on the Holocaust?
.

Watch selected videos from One Third of the Holoohax http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

Comment: The Bomba clip is especially absurd.

.
Yes, the clip itself is absurd.

But that's probably a Freudian slip on your part.
.

Review the Fundamentals of the Holohoax at
http://www.holohoax101.com

Comment: A long list of easy facts demonstrating the hoax, takes less than an hour to scan.

.
Of course, Saggs does not mention that zie is scamming zir own website, which contains not a lick of original research, but plenty of lies, all of which zie runs from...
.

So, if you peruse Heddesheimer, scan Butz, watch a few vids on One Third of the Holohoax, study Cole and www.holohoax101.com for an hour each, you'll have invested 4 or 5 hours and will have gained some perspective on the hoax, and will hopefully be able to contribute something to this forum.

[/quote]
.
Your posted lies are really all the perspective one needs on Holocaust denial...
.

 

[TSR]

You might be surprised to learn that there are now only six alleged 'death camps' and Belsen is not one of them. No one now claims that the Nazis attempted to exterminate Jews at Belsen.

.
But probably not to learn that no one scholarly ever did make that claim.

However, close to 50k inmates died there (discounting the 50k Soviet POWs who also died there). The camp was designed to hold 10k prisoners, at liberation it held 60k.

Was *that* "supply lines", too? You know, Ike never mentioned those...
.

 

[CleverClogs82]

Welcome CC82. At some point in this thread you will encounter a long list of books published since 2000, which Nick posted. On that list will be Saul Friedlander's 2 volumes called Nazi Germany and the Jews. The first volume covers 1933 to 1939 and the second volume covers the war years. The books are quite readable and give a comprehensive view of the Nazis in power with a focus on their Jewish policies. This would be my recommendation - and that you not be put off by 2 volumes.

This topic was discussed on another forum at this link:
<link I can't post>
And a bit more specialized at this link: <ink I can't post>
Many, many ideas on these threads. Let us know what you decide to read and how it goes.

I am not averse to reading voluminous books. My favorite piece of literature is Romance of the Three Kingdoms. That is well over 2000 pages split into 4 volumes. I've read it no less than 5 times in the last 15 years. I also bookmarked the links you noted and i'll take a look at later when I find the time. And thanks for the welcome.

 

[CleverClogs82]

The tactics that the denialists employ is shockingly predictable in'nit? Welcome to the forum

Agreed. Thank you for the welcome.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Just stumbled over this thread and find it heartbreaking. I must be naive, I thought holocaust deniers were almost a myth, maybe only a handful of warped people who, if they just saw the facts, would realise their stupidity.

I used to think that about conspiracists in general, but I know better now. And these guys are the worst of all.

Now I feel I need to clean and disinfect my PC <shudder>.

I know exactly how you feel.

Keep up the good work SpitfireIX.

Thank you, but my contributions to this thread have been rather modest; mainly demonstrating that CM's claim that vacuum asphyxiation is a much more economical method of extermination than lethal gas is completely wrong. I have a BA in American and European history; I have a lot of general knowledge about World War II, and very in-depth knowledge of certain aspects of the war. However, Nick Terry probably knows at least 10 times as much as I do about the Holocaust, and LemmyCaution and Wroclaw (plus some others I may be omitting) are also considerably more knowledgeable than I.

My dad had nightmares all his life from what he saw at Belsen, don't ever let anyone forget what happened to jews, gays, gypsies, dissenters et al.

And Belsen wasn't even an extermination camp. That's just how the Nazis treated people they wanted to (at least temporarily) keep alive.

 

[Saggy]

And Belsen wasn't even an extermination camp. That's just how the Nazis treated people they wanted to (at least temporarily) keep alive.

The same thing happened that happened at Belsen had happened before, in the US Civil War, at Andersonville. And as at Belsen, there was a hoax trial and the commander, Henry Wirz, tried and executed on false charges.

 

[TSR]

The holohoax in the camps is now confined to Auschwitz, Majdanek, and four razed camps in Poland. The hoax has for all practical purposes evaoporated at Majdanek, That leaves 5.

.
Not sure how I missed this on first read: Majdanek was never a extermination camp, that is to say, custom built for that purpose. That distinction goes to Belzec, Sobibor, Chełmno, and Treblinka. This is distinct from camps who, while very much materially contributing to the Final Solution, only incidentally killed Jews, in the case of Majdanek including close to 60,000 Jews and roughly 20,000 others.

Proof of the Holocaust remains in Majdanek -- who lied and told you differently?

The "hoax" of course, could not evaporate, existing only in the vacuum deniers use in place of rational minds. Nothing there to evaporate into.

And one must remember that roughly half of those killed never even made it to the camps, being shot en masse by special units created for the task, who died in the ghettos and on the trains, and who were worked to death.


.

 

[TSR]

... and will have gained some perspective on the hoax, and will hopefully be able to contribute something to this forum.

.
The only perspective one really needs on Saggs "hoax" is here and here.
.

 

[Nick Terry]

Here are a few questions for the revisionists here.

How, precisely, do you intend to win this argument, since it appears that you have been making zero headway convincing the members here?

Can you spell out the realistic steps by which your proselytising and internet posting are going to lead to a revision of the history books to conform to your beliefs?

Who will get to decide who was right and who was wrong in this dispute? Who is going to arbitrate? Public opinion? The courts? Universities?

Finally - and this one I admit is more for laughs than anything else - how long do you expect it'll be before you achieve victory?

 

[Saggy]

Here are a few questions for the revisionists here, as I imagine most deniers do.

How, precisely, do you intend to win this argument, since it appears that you have been making zero headway convincing the members here?

Can you spell out the realistic steps by which your proselytising and internet posting are going to lead to a revision of the history books to conform to your beliefs?

Who will get to decide who was right and who was wrong in this dispute? Who is going to arbitrate? Public opinion? The courts? Universities?

Finally - and this one I admit is more for laughs than anything else - how long do you expect it'll be before you achieve victory?

How, precisely, do you intend to win this argument, since it appears that you have been making zero headway convincing the members here?

Winning the argument is easy, and when I don't win I own up. I don't expect to convince AIPAC or JREF anytime soon.

Can you spell out the realistic steps by which your proselytising and internet posting are going to lead to a revision of the history books to conform to your beliefs?

Clearly it's a political thing, and eventually the truth will out. I'm just doing my small and insignificant part. Other do more, denierbud for example. 9/11 investigator as well. Bunny too.


Who will get to decide who was right and who was wrong in this dispute? Who is going to arbitrate? Public opinion? The courts? Universities?

Truth is not 'decided'.

Finally - and this one I admit is more for laughs than anything else - how long do you expect it'll be before you achieve victory?

Wish I knew the answer. As long as Israel remains a dominant force in US/European finance/politics/culture it'll be an uphill battle.