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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Where was the EK 9 accommodation building, by the way, and how do you know? After all, sources (not commemorative Web pages) locate the shooting there, not in an intersection.
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It was in the Astoria Hotel - and where they operated from during the first weeks or so (we are talking early days here)

This is the view from the corner of Wielka and Szkana street.
http://www.leisureguide.info/f/image/filename/0/0/695/DSC_1075.jpg
The building in the center is the townhall, just to the left behind it is the Astoria Hotel (now the Radisson), clear line of fire from the street corner.

This is the picture of the Hotel itself.
http://cls.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/1000000/50000/46100/46048/46048_32_b.jpg
Apparently Michael Berenbaum always insists on staying there during his numerous Hoax promoting trips - and always asks for the "Filbert suite"

You can't help wondering if it might not have been a provocation at all, but a genuine incident and Ditfurth only wrote allegedly because Judenrat members had been chewing his ear off all day about it, protesting their innocence. I mean you could hardly blame some Jews for wanting to take a few pot shots - and even by the standards of the time the reprisal was utterly excessive. All armies at the time accepted the concept of shooting hostages as a response to "illegal warfare", but it was not without limits. So when the Nazis announced a 100 to 1 policy in September 1941 that was seen as grossly outrageous. And this was 300 to zero.

Unless of course someone has diddled with OSR-24 - I mean more than we have already established with the "In excess of the normal quota" line.

Anyway, one good turn deserves another. For sorting out your provocation problems, would you be able to say if your ghetto diaries shed any light on this entry in BA RW 30 79 Aussenstelle Wilna
28.8
Infolge der letzten Judenaktion geriet die Pelzfabrik "Kailis" mit der Durchfühurng der ihr übertragenen Wehrmachtsaufträge in Bedrängnis. Einige der besten jüdischen Arbeitskräfte sind verhaftet worden. Wenn die Verhaftungen in diesem Masse fortschreiten, kann die Firma ihre Aufträge nicht ausführen. Hptm. Mundt und Sdf Lohse ist es gelungen, einige der Verhafteten freizbekommen, deren Familienangehörigen inzwischen jedoch durch die Sonderaktion beseitigt worden sind. Diese Kräfte sind demnach auch nicht voll einsatzfähig
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Precis: because of the last Judenaction, Wehrmacht contracts are in jeopardy, some of the best workers arrested, of which later some where freed, but their family members were "eliminated", so they are not fully work capable.

Is there anything in Kruk that might match that entry of 28 August - preferably quotes please. This is the trouble when your diarists mess around with their dating, it becomes impossible to match things up with genuine documents

No doubt. The blurb is so appallingly confused - taking material of Kruk's dated September and moving it to July; having Kruk use the Polish name for one of the streets mentioned - and so poorly conceived that you yourself could have written it.
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I believe what they did was deliberate, they appear to have taken the event from OSR 24, which has been incorrectly dated (by others) to 10 July. With the Ditfurth report I think we can assume that is is 13 July for the reprisal and 12 July for the incident/provocation. Then they have deliberately moved Kruk's entry for September to where they know it really belongs. Again, kudos to them. Dunno why you make such a fuss about the street names; 1, its not a direct quote and 2. he/she might be reading Kruk in Yiddish and not in the English translation - when translating the street name into its official pre-war designation would be quite normal.

I salute them.

BTW, Manuela of the USHMM cleaning team reports that Order Nr.4 is definitely dated 1 September.
 
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You are confusing yourself more and more - and refusing to answer direct and simple questions ("Where was the EK 9 accommodation building, by the way, and how do you know?"). Now you want my "help" with Kruk. Look it up yourself, and, if you actually have a point to make, make it. If you want to claim tampering, prove it. Until then, you are just doing your usual trolling. We are still waiting, after all, for the case against OSR 24.
 
Ahh, I take it there is nothing in Kruk around this time? Can't say I am surprised.


LemmyCaution said:
You are confusing yourself more and more - and refusing to answer direct and simple questions ("Where was the EK 9 accommodation building, by the way, and how do you know?").
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HELLO....it was here
4604832b.jpg


Just behind the townhall and in direct line of sight on the corner of Wielka and Szkanna streets.

Sheesh, oh how like a serpent's tooth is man's ingratitude.
 
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I didn't say that about Kruk, now did I? I said, in slightly different words, I am not your errand boy and find your games tedious. I also said that if you have a point, make it.

As to the photo, are you ignorant, or playing games on purpose? I have a different address than you for the EK9 headquarters (Wilenska 12), which is a couple blocks from where you have it - so I asked how you know the address (is this so difficult to grasp: "and how do you know?"). And you have twice failed to reply. By the way, this isn't a significant point - as the OSR and 403rd reports differ in every way to your blurb, and headquarters and accommodation buildings may not be the same, but I was curious as to your source. Which you failed to give. Twice. You seem unable to help yourself.
 
LemmyCaution said:
I didn't say that about Kruk, now did I? I said, in slightly different words, I am not your errand boy and find your games tedious. I also said that if you have a point, make it.

As to the photo, are you ignorant, or playing games on purpose? I have a different address than you for the EK9 headquarters (Wilenska 12), which is a couple blocks from where you have it -
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No, that was the headquarters of Ypatingas Buris. It was quite normal for the leading echelons of the Wehrmacht and the SD to take over the leading hotels as both accommodation and office space.
 
little grey rabbit said:
No, that was the headquarters of Ypatingas Buris. It was quite normal for the leading echelons of the Wehrmacht and the SD to take over the leading hotels as both accommodation and office space.
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Sort of. Kruk gives that as the address for the Ipatingas Buris, which was subordinated to the German police. But Harshav footnotes that the Gestapo operated out of the same address (Schweinenberg). As you no doubt know, Arad gives the address of the Gestapo building at this time as Mickiewizca 36. You know, of course, where that is. Arad cites Kruk and also testimony from Rindiziunski (I have been unable to find this specific detail in Kruk) for the Gestapo location at this time. I am aware of what was "quite normal" but your repetition of a generally known fact has no bearing on the precision of our knowledge about Vilna during July 1941, which, after all, was what I was inquiring about. Your game-playing is duly noted and taken for what it is. Your interest is in sowing confusion and concocting fictions. You may find yourself interesting, I hope so.
 
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Oh really, Arad specifically mentions where the SD stayed in early July 1941?

You have to distinguish between the location of prisons and the accommodation and headquarters of the big cheeses. Mieckwizca is far from any part of the Jewish quarter and on the other side of the river - so not a good candidate for a planned provocation that you intend to blame on the Jewish community.

As for normal practice for the SD to take over hotels:
Q. Do you remember where and how you met?

A. We met a few houses away from the Metropol Hotel, where the headquarters of the Gestapo were located. This was a place where, a few weeks previously, the emissaries from Israel and the Jewish Agency, Mr. Kurt Blumenfeld of the Keren Hayessod and Mr. Natan Bistritzky of the Jewish National Fund, had stayed. We met in the Cafe Rappaport and there secretly distributed welfare funds for the poorest people, who weren't able to receive anything from the Community. We did so with the aid funds that were available to us from private sources.

Q. Mr. Fleischmann, were you at the Headquarters of the Gestapo at the end of March 1938?
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On 24 September 1941, and in the following days, several bombs were detonated in Kiev (Kreshchatik and Prorizna Streets), and destroyed some buildings in the centre of the town, including the army headquarters and the Hotel Continental, where German officers resided.
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“The Gestapo may have loved it, but we did not”
3 of 5 stars Reviewed 24 July 2011

Although we informed the Lutetia that we would arrive at noon on Monday, July 4th, we were never-the-less denied access to our room (which had been reserved months earlier as part of a conference gathering.) Instead, we were told we would have to wait three hours; were we to leave the hotel, the concierge would deliver our bags to our room when it was ready. Our request for an upper-floor room was completely ignored, and five hours later, the promise to have our bags moved into the room was equally undelivered. Upon entry into 342 we discovered an inoperable door knob. Two hours later, we were still watching maintenance attempt to jerry-rig a solution. The bathroom door was completely chipped at the jam, with exposed rough wood. Sanitary debris was not collected from the bathroom for two days. Fortunately, our room was at the very far end of the third floor hall, and afforded us security from the burglars who tore a safe out of another room on the same floor the day of our arrival, leaving evidence of their crime scattered all over the guest's floor. We did enjoy a small balcony, overlooking the interior courtyard (with a view of absolutely nothing of interest.) As a professor of The Holocaust, I had asked the front desk to provide me with information relating to the Gestapo's occupation of the hotel during 1940-1944. A New York Times article of this past spring spoke of a prison on the property. Although an informational book was to have been made available to me, this too never materialized. Our bar tab for a single evening was astronomical. I had one calvados, and my wife and friend two drinks each. The local restaurants/bistros were horrible. Had we not discovered a small cafe in which to take our breakfasts, we would have had nearly nothing nice to say about the Hotel Lutetia.
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German occupation of Hungary
However, Marika was arrested, together with her mother und uncle Marci, on March 23, 1944 in the family Villa and detained Kisztarza. Marika suffers from tuberculosis and is treated in the camp's hospital, with additional medication provided by HUNGARIA. From August 4 to August 7, 1944 Marika was detained in Foe ut. Prison (today Ministery of Justice and Police prison, then used by the GESTAPO) and met there H. Szenes, with whom she exchanged cigarettes. On August 7, 1944 she was released from prison, but had to report regularly to the GESTAPO in Hotel Astoria. Her mother was released from GESTAPO detention on September 27, 1994. The period from May till October 1944 is very well documented in the letters from GESTAPO detention, which are complete preserved.
 
A source, a source, my kingdom for a source!

(Yes and no, Arad does, on p75, refer to Gestapo headquarters, specifically saying that Mickiewizca 36 is the address of the Gestapo headquarters, mentioning this in passing when he says that some "snatched" Jews were held in the courtyard there 13 July before being taken to Ponar. Really, I am asking a question here - and you seem to be doing some kind of clown dance. It is of absolutely no interest to me how many references you can compile to hotels in various cities and in various years, what I was asking was your source for where the Gestapo put down in Vilna in July 1941. But you know that.)
 
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Hello everyone. I've been lurking in these forums, and mainly in this thread now for the better part of the week. I'm still on page 134 so far so I've got quite a bit of catching up to do.

Anyway, I have two questions for the people who deny the holocaust. And I do apologize if they've been asked already.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you are correct. *The holocaust was a hoax perpetuated by a secret society of Jews hell bent on taking over the world, how would that benefit you? *Besides bragging rights, how does it benefit you in any way that the holocaust was fake?

What would be conclusive proof, in your mind, that proves the historicity of the Holocaust? And if presented with said evidence, would you accept it or continue to deny it like every other piece of evidence other posters here have presented?

I would like an honest answer.
 
To LemmeCaution, Nick Terry et al. Can you provide me a list of books thy chronicles the timeline of the holocaust? Books I can buy online, preferably.

My knowledge on the holocaust is limited to reading the diary of Anne Frank, Viktor Finkle's "Man's Search for Meaning" (he was an Austrian neurologist who was deported to Theresienstadt and acted as the camp psychiatrist) as well as what I learned from school.

My interest in WW2 was mainly in the causes leading up to the war as well as the war itself and not necessarily in the holocaust. I want to contribute to this thread but will wait until I have better knowledge of the subject.

Many thanks in advance.
 
CleverClogs82 said:
Hello everyone. I've been lurking in these forums, and mainly in this thread now for the better part of the week. I'm still on page 134 so far so I've got quite a bit of catching up to do.
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Welcome to the forum. If you're going to follow this thread, I hope you have a strong stomach.

CleverClogs82 said:
What would be conclusive proof, in your mind, that proves the historicity of the Holocaust? And if presented with said evidence, would you accept it or continue to deny it like every other piece of evidence other posters here have presented?

I would like an honest answer.
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Good luck getting an honest answer from any deniers. :rolleyes:
 
CleverClogs82 said:
To LemmeCaution, Nick Terry et al. Can you provide me a list of books thy chronicles the timeline of the holocaust? Books I can buy online, preferably.

My knowledge on the holocaust is limited to reading the diary of Anne Frank, Viktor Finkle's "Man's Search for Meaning" (he was an Austrian neurologist who was deported to Theresienstadt and acted as the camp psychiatrist) as well as what I learned from school.

My interest in WW2 was mainly in the causes leading up to the war as well as the war itself and not necessarily in the holocaust. I want to contribute to this thread but will wait until I have better knowledge of the subject.

Many thanks in advance.
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Misha – A Memoir Of The Holocaust Years
Elie Wiesel's memoir Night

The Fifth Diamond: The Story of Irene Weisberg Zisblatt

For info about Nazi 'gas chambers,' a 'genocide' of the Jews, or of 'six million' Jewish victims of the war" published from 1948 to 1959:

Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe 559 pages
Churchill's Second World War total 4,448 pages
de Gaulle's three-volume Mémoires de guerre 2,054 pages.


1986 Nobel Peace Prize winner Eli Wiesel's works:

Un di velt hot geshvign (Tsentral-Farband fun Poylishe Yidn in Argentine, 1956) ISBN 0-374-52140-9; (first version of Night)
Night (Hill and Wang 1958; 2006) ISBN 0-553-27253-5 (Personal account of the Holocaust)
Dawn (Hill and Wang 1961; 2006) ISBN 0-553-22536-7
Day, previously titled "The Accident" (Hill and Wang 1962; 2006) ISBN 0-553-58170-8
The Town Beyond the Wall (Atheneum 1964)
The Gates of the Forest (Holt, Rinehart and Winston 1966)
The Jews of Silence (Holt, Rinehart and Winston 1966) ISBN 0-935613-01-3
Legends of our Time (Holt, Rinehart and Winston 1968)(Artistically depicted memories)
A Beggar in Jerusalem (Random House 1970)(Novel)
One Generation After (Random House 1970)
Souls on Fire (Random House 1972) ISBN 0-671-44171-X (First book of portraits and legends of Hasidic Masters: many of the most famous)
Night Trilogy (Hill and Wang 1972)
The Oath (Random House 1973) ISBN 0-935613-11-0
Ani Maamin (Random House 1973)
Zalmen, or the Madness of God (Random House 1974)
Messengers of God (Random House 1976) ISBN 0-671-54134-X (Biblical portraits)
A Jew Today (Random House 1978) ISBN 0-935613-15-3 (Essays and imaginative works on Jewish identity)
Four Hasidic Masters-and their struggle against melancholy (University of Notre Dame Press 1978)(Portraits of Hasidic Masters)
Images from the Bible (The Overlook Press 1980)
The Trial of God (Random House 1979)(Play)
The Testament (Summit 1981)
Five Biblical Portraits (University of Notre Dame Press 1981)(Biblical figures reinterpreted)
Somewhere a Master (Further Hasidic portraits, after "Souls on Fire") (Summit 1982)
The Golem (illustrated by Mark Podwal) (Summit 1983) ISBN 0-671-49624-7 (Children's book on the Jewish legend)
The Fifth Son (Summit 1985)
Against Silence (Holocaust Library 1985)
Twilight (Summit 1988)
The Six Days of Destruction (co-author Albert Friedlander, illustrated by Mark Podwal) (Paulist Press 1988)
A Journey of Faith (Donald I. Fine 1990)
From the Kingdom of Memory (Summit 1990)(essays and depictions after "A Jew Today")
Evil and Exile (University of Notre Dame Press 1990)
Sages and Dreamers (Summit 1991)(Portraits of Biblical, Talmudic and Hasidic figures)
The Forgotten (Summit 1992) ISBN 0-8052-1019-9
A Passover Haggadah (illustrated by Mark Podwal) (Simon and Schuster 1993) ISBN 0-671-73541-1 (Jewish liturgy)
All Rivers Run to the Sea: Memoirs, Vol. I, 1928–1969 (Knopf 1995) ISBN 0-8052-1028-8
Memoir in Two Voices, with François Mitterrand (Arcade 1996)
And the Sea is Never Full: Memoirs Vol. II, 1969 (Knopf 1999) ISBN 0-8052-1029-6
King Solomon and his Magic Ring (illustrated by Mark Podwal) (Greenwillow 1999)
Conversations with Elie Wiesel (Schocken 2001)
The Judges (Knopf 2002)
Wise Men and Their Tales (Portraits of Biblical, Talmudic and Hasidic figures) (Schocken 2003) ISBN 0-8052-4173-6
The Time of the Uprooted (Knopf 2005)
A Mad Desire to Dance (2009)
Rashi a biography (2009)
The Sonderberg Case (2010)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elie_Wiesel#Works
 
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SpitfireIX said:
Welcome to the forum. If you're going to follow this thread, I hope you have a strong stomach.

Good luck getting an honest answer from any deniers. :rolleyes:
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Just stumbled over this thread and find it heartbreaking. I must be naive, I thought holocaust deniers were almost a myth, maybe only a handful of warped people who, if they just saw the facts, would realise their stupidity.

Now I feel I need to clean and disinfect my PC <shudder>.

Keep up the good work SpitfireIX. My dad had nightmares all his life from what he saw at Belsen, don't ever let anyone forget what happened to jews, gays, gypsies, dissenters et al.

Thank you.

x

joolz
 
Nuremberg Proceedings

One of the chief presiding judges, Charles F. Wennerstrum, denounced the proceedings:


“If I had known seven months ago what I know today, I would never have come here…Obviously, the victor in any war is not the best judge of the war crime guilt...The prosecution has failed to maintain objectivity aloof from vindictiveness, aloof from personal ambitions for convictions...the defense had access only to those documents which the prosecution considered material to the case…also abhorrent to the American sense of justice is the prosecution’s reliance upon self-incriminating statements made by the defendants while prisoners for more than 2&1/2 years and repeated interrogations without the presence of counsel.” - Harwood, p. 39, 40.
 
http://anglo-saxonisrael.com/blog/?p=44

11.) There were no more than 4 million Jews living in Nazi-occupied territory. As the Nazi army advanced, the Jews fled rather than be captured. On June 30, 1965, the West German government announced that 3,375,000 Jewish “holocaust survivors” had applied for reparations. Now, if we subtract 3,375,000 from 4,000,000, that leaves 625,000 unaccounted for. If we take 625,000 and add a zero to the figure, we arrive at the fictitious and truly fantastic six million lie.

12.) According to the World Almanac of 1947, the world population of Jews in 1939 was 15,688,259. These figures were supplied to the Almanac by the American Jewish Committee. Then, the Jewish-owned New York Times of Feb. 22, 1948 listed the Jewish population in Palestine as 600,000 to 700,000; and for the rest of the world, the Jewish population is listed as 15,600,000 to 18,700,000. If we add the two lower figures together, we get a minimum total of 16,200,000 Jews world-wide, which is still a net increase in the world Jewish population of at least 500,000. If six million Jews had really died, then the total should have been 10,200,000.
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30.) Prof. Rassinier’s book is a detailed examination of Jewish populations in virtually every country of Europe, including Poland and Russia, from 1931 to 1945. According to Rassinier’s statistics, in 1931 Europe had 9,777,500 documented Jews (figures from the World Center of Contemporary Jewish Documentation). The population that remained in these locations in 1945 was 4,250,000. The emigrants who left Europe altogether is numbered at 4,416,608. These people went to three main locations: Palestine (the Israeli state had not yet been created), Central Asia (Soviet Union) and the United States. So, the total, documented numbers of living European Jews in 1945, according to Rassinier, was 8,666,608. If we subtract the documented number of survivors from the documented pre-war population, we have a total of l,003,392 unaccounted for. Of these, a certain number must have died from causes unrelated to the war. If we grant that half of them died from such causes, then we have a total of about 500,000 Jews who perished in the war. This is consistent with our previous totals from items 11 and 13.
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For all believers who refrain "Well where did they, the 6 million, go?"
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://anglo-saxonisrael.com/blog/?p=44

For all believers who refrain "Well where did they, the 6 million, go?"
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Interesting you reference a website with a mission statement of:

"The official website of the Ecclesiastical Council for the Restoration of Covenant Israel (ECRCI), an organization of Christian Identity pastors, teachers, and researchers who have dedicated themselves to the awakening of the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Caucasian peoples as the true and only descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. "Yahweh will enter into judgment with the elders of His people." -- Isa. 3:14."

:rolleyes:
 
Robrob said:
Interesting you reference a website with a mission statement of:

"The official website of the Ecclesiastical Council for the Restoration of Covenant Israel (ECRCI), an organization of Christian Identity pastors, teachers, and researchers who have dedicated themselves to the awakening of the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Caucasian peoples as the true and only descendants of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. "Yahweh will enter into judgment with the elders of His people." -- Isa. 3:14."

:rolleyes:
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http://www.jpost.com
http://www.jta.org/
Connecticut Rabbi Joshua Hammerman
JDL


What do you think their mission statements are?
 
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