Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Don't forget Spielberg and Zisblatt and her book and the girl who was raised by wolves and her book. I'm curious as to why all these liar's liespeak are still acceptable to the Jewish community in that they remain available for public consumption?

Around the time of this post, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7393624&postcount=4212, we went through all that, and you still haven't shared your research on Zisblatt with us. How many references to Spielberg or Zisblatt have you found in the posts made by people - I mean non deniers - on this thread?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Around the time of this post, http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7393624&postcount=4212, we went through all that, and you still haven't shared your research on Zisblatt with us. How many references to Spielberg or Zisblatt have you found in the posts made by people - I mean non deniers - on this thread?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Don't forget Spielberg and Zisblatt and her book and the girl who was raised by wolves and her book. I'm curious as to why all these liar's liespeak are still acceptable to the Jewish community in that they remain available for public consumption?

I don't consider us the Jewish Community.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I don't consider us the Jewish Community.

Of course not. I really don't know what you mean and how widespread is acceptance of Zisblatt's claims in any communities. I was, however, asking you something different. Your post reminded me of another of your many, many dodges. So, you didn't share with us - the readers of this thread - your research into Zisblatt, did you? How did you come to the conclusions you hold? I find that question interesting. Now is as good a time to ask, as well, since you endorse Saggy's "List o' Liars," for you to explain Hilberg's lies and how you know that he is lying.

 

[Robrob]

mundane?

WTF?

Yeah, that's gotta be a stundie. I must've grown up in a much more sheltered environment than I thought I did. I don't ever recall seeing babies thrown in the air for machine gun practice, let alone 'mundane.'

Your pretense of "amazement" aside, yes mundane and/or commonplace savagery as seen before and such will be seen again. Your constant claims of "amazement" at murderous but physically possible events is either childishness or dissembling.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a murder might steal shoes from a corpse.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a warning agent might be removed from a deadly poison gas used on unsuspecting victims.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" at starving people fighting over bread.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a murder could toss an infant in the air for another murderer to (try and) shoot.

Really, I'm sure the list is quite extensive but those are just the ones I've observed here myself.

 

[TSR]

Don't forget Spielberg and Zisblatt and her book and the girl who was raised by wolves and her book. I'm curious as to why all these liar's liespeak are still acceptable to the Jewish community in that they remain available for public consumption?

,
Yeah, and why are the Turner Diaries and The Protocols still available? Dianetics? Wakefields' crap?

Da Jooos run everything:

Edited by Darat: 

Forum management off-topic stuff removed.

,

 

[Dogzilla]

Mundane, "of this World." That's the literal meaning. You're wasting your time trying to get Saggy to explain why such things are not possible in the World, and "absurd" when it comes to Jews and the Holocaust. He can't explain it himself. He's got a formula. Though he would know how low humanity can sink.

As for Dogzilla, he did not come into contact with his genocidal heroes so it's unlikely that he has experienced such "niceties," in his lifetime. So what? Neither have I. That does not mean they did not occur. His empiricism, and pathetic complaint about the use of the word "mundane" - which is mean spirited nit picking anyway - is no sort of counter argument, whatsoever.

At best it reads like a sixteen year old's adolescent sneering.

My empiricism is a problem? What do you mean when you say 'empricism?'

 

[Cyrix686]

I thought you were saying that because you haven't apparently had experience or witnessed crimes of this nature for yourself, you refuse to accept them. That at least is how it came across to me. As a form of empirical argument in which the person making the argument refuses to accept what they have no experience of. So just because you have not had direct experience of murderous infanticide does not mean that such crimes did not occur. Or am I just reading way too much into the deniers at JREF and this is just a stock cop-out response around here, plain denier incredulity?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Their arguments from incredulity - these sketches they perform about what is implausible, impossible, etc - make them seem to be of incredibly limited experience and/or utterly lacking in the ability to process experiences beyond their own. I often think it's a "stock cop-out response," but, then, they do seem relentlessly stunted in life experience, intellectual curiosity, awareness and understanding, and - let's call it - processing power. Imagining them reading a daily "newspaper" and trying to make sense of the rather mundane but horrific things it reports people doing is a bit amusing.

 

[Saggy]

Don't forget Spielberg and Zisblatt and her book and the girl who was raised by wolves and her book. I'm curious as to why all these liar's liespeak are still acceptable to the Jewish community in that they remain available for public consumption?

There is not a shred of difference between Zisblatt and Wiesel, or Zisblatt and Bomba, or Wiernik, or any of the holohoax 'witnesses'. Their lies are all obviously absurd from the get go, you just have to read their actual words. The Jews don't make any distinction between them because there is none. They are perfectly happy to see Zisblatt going on a university speaking tour, or Spielberg get an Academy award, or Wiesel receive another honor, the holohoax is in your face absurd and they do not take one step backward unless absolutely necessary, and even then they will advance the same lies when the critics attention is elsewhere.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is not a shred of difference between Zisblatt and Wiesel, or Zisblatt and Bomba, or Wiernik, or any of the holohoax 'witnesses'. There lies are all obviously absurd from the get go, you just have to read their actual words. The Jews don't make any distinction between them because there is none. They are perfectly happy to see Zisblatt going on a university speaking tour, or Spielberg get an Academy award, or Wiesel receive another honor, the holohoax is in your face absurd and they do not take one step backward unless absolutely necessary, and even then they will advance the same lies when the critics attention is elsewhere.

You haven't been able even to discuss the famous Nuremberg trial of the Einsatzgruppen leaders or the important Ponar diary of Sakowicz - let alone show "there lies" - and yet that doesn't stop you from handwaving about what is supposedly obvious and blethering nonsense about "the Jews." Once again, thank you, you pop in to demonstrate just how know-nothingism works in practice.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Your pretense of "amazement" aside, yes mundane and/or commonplace savagery as seen before and such will be seen again. Your constant claims of "amazement" at murderous but physically possible events is either childishness or dissembling.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a murder might steal shoes from a corpse.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a warning agent might be removed from a deadly poison gas used on unsuspecting victims.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" at starving people fighting over bread.

No one but a child or a disingenuous liar would pretend to be "amazed" a murder could toss an infant in the air for another murderer to (try and) shoot.

Really, I'm sure the list is quite extensive but those are just the ones I've observed here myself.

Time for an ethnography learn lessen courtesy of your better Clayton Moore. Better by a lot.

Extreme cultural behavior is easily recognized. The above ruthless brutalities you accuse the Germans of is not peculiar to German society. It's more like Russian communist dehumanizing tactics. Meaning that an Eastern Front Russian communist type imagination conjured up that brutality and assigned it to the Germans.

German cultural behavior was almost effete in comparison.

 

[LSSBB]

Time for an ethnography learn lessen courtesy of your better Clayton Moore. Better by a lot.

Extreme cultural behavior is easily recognized. The above ruthless brutalities you accuse the Germans of is not peculiar to German society. It's more like Russian communist dehumanizing tactics. Meaning that an Eastern Front Russian communist type imagination conjured up that brutality and assigned it to the Germans.

German cultural behavior was almost effete in comparison.

Effete behvior, as exemplified by the SA, SS, and SS against the SA?

 

[TheRedWorm]

No one said that it was typical German behavior. Typical nazi behavior, but not all Germans are necessarily nazis, and vice versa.

 

[Robrob]

Time for an ethnography learn lessen courtesy of your better Clayton Moore. Better by a lot.

Extreme cultural behavior is easily recognized. The above ruthless brutalities you accuse the Germans of is not peculiar to German society. It's more like Russian communist dehumanizing tactics. Meaning that an Eastern Front Russian communist type imagination conjured up that brutality and assigned it to the Germans.

German cultural behavior was almost effete in comparison.

"No true Scotsman!"

Is there any logical fallacy you won't try?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Perhaps Clayton Moore will explain this event to us:

"At about 8:20 in the morning [25 October 1941] a long procession of the condemned appeared on the road near the little chapel. I observed that it was made up exclusively of women - old and young, children in carriages, suckling babies. . . . Weeping arose in the ranks. The Jewish women began to fall back. Then on the officer's order (there were twelve of them--six at the front with a captain) the soldiers began to beat the women with their rifle butts. One of the Jewish women said to a soldier, 'I gave you all my money and you promised to let me and the child go, and now you lead me to death!' The soldier smiled.

"A second young Jewish woman, nineteen to twenty years old, in a gray overcoat and black fur collar, intelligent, with a boy about three to four in a navy blue coat, falls to the ground (full of mud), kisses the feet of the noncommissioned officer and begs for her life, grasps his muddied shoes and pleads. To free his leg, he kicks her in the jaw with the tip of his shoe, freeing himself with the same leg from her grasp. On her torn cheek blood gushes out, mixing with the mud.

"The Jewish woman lies there and pleads spasmodically. The second soldier beats her with a rifle butt. She grabs the rifle butt, kisses it, kneeling on the road at the entrance to the killing grounds. Then the soldier snatches the crying boy, swings him around, and throws him like a log past the wire; there the rifle butt is raised to kill the child. The Jewish women rushes forward and runs past the wire and shields the child. And when all is said and done, this is what it was about, wasn't it? The shooting carried on continuously until 5 PM."

Red cultural behavior? Russian cruelty? What was it all about? Who was involved? What was going on?

Once he's wrapped this up, Clayton Moore can start explaining the effete Nationalist Socialist behavior evident in 1934 on the Night of the Long Knives and in 1938 during Reichskristallnacht. To name two more events.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Perhaps Clayton Moore will explain this event to us:

"At about 8:20 in the morning [25 October 1941] a long procession of the condemned appeared on the road near the little chapel. I observed that it was made up exclusively of women - old and young, children in carriages, suckling babies. . . . Weeping arose in the ranks. The Jewish women began to fall back. Then on the officer's order (there were twelve of them--six at the front with a captain) the soldiers began to beat the women with their rifle butts. One of the Jewish women said to a soldier, 'I gave you all my money and you promised to let me and the child go, and now you lead me to death!' The soldier smiled.

"A second young Jewish woman, nineteen to twenty years old, in a gray overcoat and black fur collar, intelligent, with a boy about three to four in a navy blue coat, falls to the ground (full of mud), kisses the feet of the noncommissioned officer and begs for her life, grasps his muddied shoes and pleads. To free his leg, he kicks her in the jaw with the tip of his shoe, freeing himself with the same leg from her grasp. On her torn cheek blood gushes out, mixing with the mud.

"The Jewish woman lies there and pleads spasmodically. The second soldier beats her with a rifle butt. She grabs the rifle butt, kisses it, kneeling on the road at the entrance to the killing grounds. Then the soldier snatches the crying boy, swings him around, and throws him like a log past the wire; there the rifle butt is raised to kill the child. The Jewish women rushes forward and runs past the wire and shields the child. And when all is said and done, this is what it was about, wasn't it? The shooting carried on continuously until 5 PM."

Red cultural behavior? Russian cruelty? What was it all about? Who was involved? What was going on?

Once he's wrapped this up, Clayton Moore can start explaining the effete Nationalist Socialist behavior evident in 1934 on the Night of the Long Knives and in 1938 during Reichskristallnacht. To name two more events.

A Captain on a prisoner detail? It never freaking ends. The freaking fabrications.

 

[Dogzilla]

I thought you were saying that because you haven't apparently had experience or witnessed crimes of this nature for yourself, you refuse to accept them. That at least is how it came across to me. As a form of empirical argument in which the person making the argument refuses to accept what they have no experience of. So just because you have not had direct experience of murderous infanticide does not mean that such crimes did not occur. Or am I just reading way too much into the deniers at JREF and this is just a stock cop-out response around here, plain denier incredulity?

I didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun. I didn't refuse to accept the idea that if you're digging a pit into which you are planning to burn people alive, you might have one pit for babies and one pit for adults. I don't put those two actions in the same category of impossible as I would something like walking on the sun. They're possible. What I refuse to accept and what I mocked derisively is the notion that these things are mundane.

I don't require direct experience with something in order to believe it is true. However if it were true that in my life I witnessed babies being used for target practice by drunk Ukrainians and Germans with machine guns as often as I see somebody asking another person for spare change, I would probably not quibble with somebody who said that using live babies for target practice is mundane.

 

[little grey rabbit]

If Saggy is here to present "The Big Picture," then how come the vast canvas of it in his time at JREF consists of a set of repetitive (mixed metaphors here) scratched irreparably, records and all repeating the same formula? I appreciate his varying the spiel for me up thread...However, Lemmy Caution has pointed out some essentially fatal flaws in this precious NEW big picture of Saggs and I have noted that he has not (yet) been able to respond to them. Do Clayton Moore and Dogzilla have some "big pictures?"

As I always pegged you as someone whose history mostly came from Maus, it does surprise me that you need Big Pictures before you can grasp something.

Fortunately, cometh the hour, cometh the man - I have all the big pictures you need.

A defining feature of the Hoax is to cynically produce materials design to bolster the narrative that is being constructed. So Mr Caution quotes from the numerous diaries that miraculously survived the Vilna Ghetto.

You can see that this fabricating mindset even extends to official documents.

Here is a supposed Bekanntmachung found at Yad Vashem that purports to relate to a massacre of several thousand Jews outside Vilna.

Here is a genuine, official Bekanntmachung of 9 days prior asking that all non-Jewish refugees register with police.

Even an avid Maus devotee like yourself should have to trouble determining which is the genuine official proclamation and which is the hasty post war falsification.

I hope those pictures are big enough for you.

 

[TSR]

A Captain on a prisoner detail? It never freaking ends. The freaking fabrications.

No, there seems to be no end to the lies you are willing to post in support of your hate.

And they will keep getting pointed out, and *those* posts reported.

Got anything beyond your need that it be so to indict this testimony?

No, didn't think so...
/

 

[TSR]

I didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun.

< ... >

What I refuse to accept and what I mocked derisively is the notion that these things are mundane.

.
Perhaps you are using some private definition of mundane?

It helps discussion if we all use words the same way.

Here, let me help: "of or pertaining to this world as contrasted with heaven"

Which of these qualities do you submit as not being true, since you "didn't refuse to accept babies being thrown in the air and shot with a machine gun"?
.