Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Matthew Ellard]

Christian Lindtner, has declared his apostasy from denier dogma Holocaust Denial Is Chutzpah.

Thanks for this.

 

[Wroclaw]

...the economically depressed and incredibly dwarfish Ostjuden.

Allow me to speak for the 10 million or so of us Ashkenazi Jews when I say, "Huh?"

 

[Clayton Moore]

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Typical of ... ?
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In what way does Wroclaw's comment insult Xtians as a grouo?
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Similar to the way you did with your "innocent" divagation from the mainstream term "Christian," Wroclaw regularly utters oaths with an I am not a Christian hear me roar tone.

 

[TSR]

Similar to the way you did with your "innocent" divagation from the mainstream term "Christian," Wroclaw regularly utters oaths with an I am not a Christian hear me roar tone.

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Neither of which is a slur. Try again.

*Then* we can talk about your use of the words "regularly" and "oaths", to which you appear to have given another definition.

Oh, and it's not "my" anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas#Usage_of_.22X.22_for_.22Christ.22

"The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) and the OED Supplement have cited usages of "X-" or "Xp-" for "Christ-" as early as 1485. The terms "Xpian" and "Xtian" have also been used for "Christian". The dictionary further cites usage of "Xtianity" for "Christianity" from 1634."

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[Nick Terry]

I never really doubted the mass shootings. I thought they were fairly well documented. The stupid stuff about heaving ground and geysers of blood I dismissed as the fanciful musings of the economically depressed and incredibly dwarfish Ostjuden. But as to what happened to the Jews of Vilna by December 1941? I don't know. I'd say they were probably shot as long there's credible testimony that that is what happened and some evidence of mass graves besides a monument and a report from some Soviet extraordinary commission. You do have more than several Pesye Schloss', don't you?

Clearly, you've not been following the discussion or are now playing dumb. The whole point of mentioning Pesye Schloss was that there was much, much more, none of which you have even tried to deal with.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I never really doubted the mass shootings. I thought they were fairly well documented. The stupid stuff about heaving ground and geysers of blood I dismissed as the fanciful musings of the economically depressed and incredibly dwarfish Ostjuden. But as to what happened to the Jews of Vilna by December 1941? I don't know. I'd say they were probably shot as long there's credible testimony that that is what happened and some evidence of mass graves besides a monument and a report from some Soviet extraordinary commission. You do have more than several Pesye Schloss', don't you?

Of course, and you've ignored the variety of sources we've introduced and you've fallen for far-fetched, obfuscatory insinuations and innuendos when convenient. You need to think about why there is so much evidence for the mass murders - and none for any other alternative. Here we have produced a number of witnesses and at least one official document testifying to mass murder, LGR has spun up some of his standard loopholes and vague allusions to a vast forgery and "contamination" enterprise (not one name!), and no one has found one item suggesting any other fate than mass shootings. And you act as though it's an open question.

You should really read something, you know. Kruk + Sakowicz + Jaeger isn't too much - but the three pieces together add up to a lot. And here the SEC conforms to what the prior observations describe, so if you want to doubt the SEC and other evidence of mass graves (you probably ignored the link to Muehlenkamp's stuff on this), then go ahead but don't kid yourself that handwaving the SEC away is real work or real thought. Cf. http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/v/vilna/album66/

And, if you ever did start paying attention, you know there's a lot of evidence beyond Kruk + Sakowicz + Jaeger, much cited in this thread, for just the one mass murder we've been discussing - as well as the waves of mass murder at Ponar. In fact, there is some really good material that implicates some people you insult as dwarfish Ostjuden - and that material was produced by others of the "depressed and dwarfish." It shows the Germans clearly in command, and some Jews, for well articulated reasons, playing roles in killing operations. (Note to Clayton Moore: No, Jews didn't do the killings at Auschwitz, but at Oshmiana some Jewish policemen did pull triggers . . . some members of Vilna's Jewish police force, that is, some.)

If you can ever get over your somewhat biased view of the "dwarfish Ostjuden," you might see the whole thing in a different light.

And if you read enough stuff, you would realize that there is a lot more than Wiesel to it, and that very different kinds of people testified to different parts of what happened - and different kinds of evidence come into play. You could read your entire lifetime and not finish with all the evidence.

Mind you, having followed your antics on this board, I don't think you are up to any of this and I think that you remain pretty chipper in your prejudice and ignorance - which state allows you to blether away post after post on a topic that doesn't interest you (you say), to which you aren't paying attention (you claim), and for which you won't think about more than one thing at time (you admit) - all resulting in your flippant and shallow, uninformed but intransigent remarks throughout. Honestly, for you to go on and on but not take the time to read 3 sources about the Great Provocation speaks volumes about you and your position.

I don't think you can describe what happened to Vilna's Jews because you are too lazy and too biased to really think about it and to make the effort to find out. And you don't want to know in any real way what happened to the "missing Jews," which engaging with the material introduced during discussion of Schloss would make you do. Instead you think you can stand half aside and, when forced to by your own lack of logic, make bland general statements, wrapped up with continued snide dismissals, and then blithely return to Wiesel & diesel, huffing & puffing, and stone-dumb, smug, self-secure know-nothingism.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Clarification: In the above post I reference the Oshmiana action, using the phrase pulled the trigger. This was meant figuratively, to convey participation. In this case, by the best accounts we have, Jewish victims were led by Jewish policemen commanded by Gens and Dessler "to the square of execution" (Kruk) in Oshmiana, where German and Lithuanian shooters killed the victims (fewer in the end than originally demanded by the Germans), firing the actual shots. The literal triggermen were thus the Germans and Lithuanians, with the Vilna Jewish police playing a support role in this slaughter. Kruk named some of the individuals involved, and Gens gave a public speech explaining why he had the police force play the role it did. There were great recriminations and bitterness in the ghetto over this event. My point in raising it is two-fold, first, to convey the richness that testimony can provide, when used properly, and, second, to get across, in contrast to the despicable caricature provided by Dogzilla and LGR's conspiracy buffoonery, that real people were involved in these events and chose different paths, causing great disagreement and division among the victims at the time and even commentators to this day.

 

[Dogzilla]

Thanks for this.

Yes, thank you very much. It helps us understand the intellectual bankruptcy of the gas chamber claims.

Mr. Apostate tells us "He knows very well, however, that there is manifold documentation for the existence of Nazi gas chambers. He also knows that this documentation is only available and known to a few specialists - including himself."

So this guy is telling us that everybody (except for the chosen few) who believes in gas chambers does so without any real evidence.

Why can't we all see this manifold documentation?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clarification: In the above post I reference the Oshmiana action, using the phrase pulled the trigger. This was meant figuratively, to convey participation. In this case, by the best accounts we have, Jewish victims were led by Jewish policemen commanded by Gens and Dessler "to the square of execution" (Kruk) in Oshmiana, where German and Lithuanian shooters killed the victims (fewer in the end than originally demanded by the Germans), firing the actual shots. The literal triggermen were thus the Germans and Lithuanians, with the Vilna Jewish police playing a support role in this slaughter. Kruk named some of the individuals involved, and Gens gave a public speech explaining why he had the police force play the role it did. There were great recriminations and bitterness in the ghetto over this event. My point in raising it is two-fold, first, to convey the richness that testimony can provide, when used properly, and, second, to get across, in contrast to the despicable caricature provided by Dogzilla and LGR's conspiracy buffoonery, that real people were involved in these events and chose different paths, causing great disagreement and division among the victims at the time and even commentators to this day.

Once again they accuse anyone of authority in the proximity of an alleged mass execution of participating in the slaughter of hundreds, thousands of children.

Did those who were not killed slaughter the Vilna Jewish police who were involved in the slaughtering of Jewish children?

 

[Dogzilla]

Allow me to speak for the 10 million or so of us Ashkenazi Jews when I say, "Huh?"

I guess "runtish" is the word, not dwarfish. Dirt poor, culturally backwards, having lived through an economic depression for ten years, yada yada... The Jews of eastern Europe were just a very tiny people compared to the big strong Germans next door.

 

[Wroclaw]

Did those who were not killed slaughter the Vilna Jewish police who were involved in the slaughtering of Jewish children?

To some extent, yes. These matters varied from place to place and time to time, but Jupo, like KZ Kapos, were pretty much uniformly hated. Survivors of ghettoes were known, in the early days of the State of Israel, to dogpile on former Kapos and Jupo when such were identified in the population.

But it's also important to remember that the Jupo were only very rarely (if ever) involved in shooting actions. Deportations, yes. Shootings, not really.

 

[Nick Terry]

Yes, thank you very much. It helps us understand the intellectual bankruptcy of the gas chamber claims.

Mr. Apostate tells us "He knows very well, however, that there is manifold documentation for the existence of Nazi gas chambers. He also knows that this documentation is only available and known to a few specialists - including himself."

So this guy is telling us that everybody (except for the chosen few) who believes in gas chambers does so without any real evidence.

This is true for virtually everything in history and most of science, except that it's not a chosen few, it's a self-selecting few who bother to do the reading and look at sources.

How many people have ever seen a single piece of primary source evidence relating to Stalin's Great Terror? Most books which discuss the Great Terror don't even cite the documents which prove that there was a Great Terror. They cite a historian citing the documents. Or cite a historian who cites another historian who cites the documents.

Even if you do a history degree, and touch on Stalinism in a course, you might never see the documents that prove there was a Great Terror. If you do, you would see some in translation; an even smaller number in western Europe or the US have actually learned Russian and bothered to look up documentary collections, and even fewer have been to the archives to look for themselves.

Yet this massive gulf between primary sources and 'common knowledge' doesn't bother anyone.

How is this any different in terms of the transmission of knowledge regarding the Holocaust?

Why can't we all see this manifold documentation?

You can. Quite a lot is online, eg here, or here, or here, or here, or here., or here.

The rest is in archives like this one, which contrary to the fantasies of deniers, do not have an invisible anti-investigation barrier thrown around them, but are open-access and can be visited by anyone who wants to confirm that what they are reading in a book is accurate.

It helps, if you're going to play the passive-aggressive card, not to ask such monumentally stupid questions.

 

[LemmyCaution]

To some extent, yes. These matters varied from place to place and time to time, but Jupo, like KZ Kapos, were pretty much uniformly hated. Survivors of ghettoes were known, in the early days of the State of Israel, to dogpile on former Kapos and Jupo when such were identified in the population.

But it's also important to remember that the Jupo were only very rarely (if ever) involved in shooting actions. Deportations, yes. Shootings, not really.

We are talking about 400 victims in Oszmiana - versus a German demand for 1500. The number was whittled down by Gens and Dessler, at least they claimed so. IIRC the victims were elderly in fact.

Many in the Vlina ghetto felt that Gens and Dessler, with a figurative gun to their head, had done the best they could do, in reducing the number of victims by 1100. But many in the ghetto, as Wroclaw says, were enraged by the Oshmiana action, which, again supporting Wroclaw, created a furor and outrage because it was not usual at all.

The FPO, which was the underground in the ghetto, organized for armed resistance against the Germans. Some forces in the police collaborated with the underground, including even Gens turning a blind eye to its activities at times.

Although ghetto residents targeted their anger at Gens and his senior officials, some of whom like Glazman were secretly working in the underground, their main focus was the root cause - that is, German rule and policy, which left people like Gens in a no-win situation in which outright opposition was felt to jeopardize everyone in the ghetto.

Wroclaw's question "Did you ever have a gun pointed at your head?" is absolutely pertinent here.

My point is that very complex reactions and relationships were at play - not the uniform spin or dramatics of a dwarfish, runtish, undereducated Ostjuden - Bolshevik conspiracy that revisionists try to spin.

As to the absurdity that eastern Jews were a "backward" lot, I would put the learning and sophistication of Ringelblum, Sutzkever, Kaczerginsky, Tory, Kruk, Lewin, Kaplan, and many, many others - even Kovner and his fellow militants - far, far ahead of the culture displayed by Dogzilla and his stereotyping and ostrich-like curiosity.

 

[Wroclaw]

Truly. And it's worth mentioning that shtetl culture per se had essentially ceased to exist except for the most remote places and outside of the Soviet Union and Poland (e.g., certain parts of Hungary and Romania). Because of the Bolshevik Revolution and the modernization of Poland under Pilsudski, which included full rights for Jews under the republican constitution, shtetl culture was pretty much gone. Even the Orthodox in Poland, such as they were, were more modern than they'd been even a generation earlier.

 

[Pacal]

The stupid stuff about heaving ground and geysers of blood I dismissed as the fanciful musings of the economically depressed and incredibly dwarfish Ostjuden.

Edited by LashL: 

Edited for civility

I guess you just don't know about mass burial sites sometimes do heave, from decomposing bodies and blood leaking out is not impossible either. I myself worked on a farm in the 1970's for a few months and several hundred hogs had to be buried because they were infected with some disease or the other. I remember quite clearly that the Farmer, a Mr. Levesque didn't bury them deep enough and after a week the ground fid heave a bit and yes therte was some blood. I remember it because it was so disgusting.

Your contempt for Eastern European Jews shines forth like a diseased tumor.

I note that the old myth of the lying Jew prey to delusions and fantasy such a staple of myth for so long. I esspecially love the reference to "dwarfsh", anotheer lovely bow to old myths. The use of the phrase Ostjuden is so revealing also.

Now why don't you go back and play with your friends.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Once again they accuse anyone of authority in the proximity of an alleged mass execution of participating in the slaughter of hundreds, thousands of children.

Did those who were not killed slaughter the Vilna Jewish police who were involved in the slaughtering of Jewish children?

Of course this happened in places, if not in Vilna. In Vilna ghetto, the inmates reacted to the actions of the Jewish police force without taking on the Jewish police, some responding in resignation, some with bitter agreement, some highly critical, and some organizing and waiting for the time to strike at the Germans. The most famous case of ghetto inmates striking back at Jewish police - in Warsaw where the Jewish Fighting Organization targeted collaborationists and especially the Jewish Order Service for assisting the Germans in deporting Jews to Treblinka - is written about in many sources, both secondary and primary. You would know this if you read materials on the Holocaust, wouldn't you? If you read about the Holocaust, you'd know, for example, that the Warsaw underground tried, unsuccessfully, to assassinate the chief of the Order Service, Josef Szerynski, during the height of the deportations, in August; that in October 1942 the ZOB killed Jakub Lejkin, another police commander who had collaborated during the deportations; and that 3 members of ZOB shot and killed another collaborator, Izrael First, in November of that year. Since you don't know anything about the Holocaust, you continue to post empty-headed nonsense. Your right, of course, but it is a strange habit.

 

[Robrob]

As to the absurdity that eastern Jews were a "backward" lot, I would put the learning and sophistication of Ringelblum, Sutzkever, Kaczerginsky, Tory, Kruk, Lewin, Kaplan, and many, many others - even Kovner and his fellow militants - far, far ahead of the culture displayed by Dogzilla and his stereotyping and ostrich-like curiosity.

Like all CT loons, he's capable of holding onto several mutually exclusive ideas at once. "Teh Joos" were simultaneously mentally deficient and lacking in culture while able to control banking and finance, academics and the media for generations.

They are a convenient scapegoat, subhuman when you need them to be and superhuman at other times.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Like all CT loons, he's capable of holding onto several mutually exclusive ideas at once. "Teh Joos" were simultaneously mentally deficient and lacking in culture while able to control banking and finance, academics and the media for generations.

They are a convenient scapegoat, subhuman when you need them to be and superhuman at other times.

In other words, he's channeling Peter-Heinz Seraphim or Dr Goebbels - no, wait, too intellectual for the revisionists on this forum, more like Julius Streicher, Ernst Hiemer, or Hermann Esser. But if Dogzilla would tell us where he gets these ideas, we wouldn't have to speculate. The concepts do sound familiar though.

 

[Wroclaw]

...and that 3 members of ZOB shot and killed another collaborator, Izrael First

Just gotta break in here and say:

Best. Name. Ever.

Though not exactly fitting for a collaborator.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Clayton Moore's misrepresentation of the Oshmiana action: To clarify a point I made about this -

The number was whittled down by Gens and Dessler, at least they claimed so. IIRC the victims were elderly in fact.

According to Arad, in Ghetto in Flames, the victims were elderly and also Jews who were ill (in his famous justification speech to ghetto leaders, Gens explained that "When Weiss first came and demanded women and children, I told him that instead he should take old people. . . . And may these aged Jews forgive us, they were the sacrifice for our Jews and our future.")

How was Gens able to do what Rumkowski could not achieve in Lodz with regard to the children?

Again, Arad cites the trial of Martin Weiss which established that the reduction in the number of victims demanded was a result of bribes which Weiss accepted from Gens.

Clayton Moore's post on this topic is wrong on almost every count - in the case of Oshmiana and the role of Vilna's Jewish police force, children were saved not killed, the total number of Jews killed was reduced from the 1000s to the 100s due to intervention of some Jews in a position to "haggle," the so-called people in "authority" participated because they understood they had to, the Jewish police leaders took a strategy of sacrificing some to save many (which most ghetto leaders concurred in to some degree), and the choice was not voluntary but a tortured surrender to force and necessity imposed by the Germans. None of this is meant to justify Gens's decisions - rather to put them in context and establish his rationale, as he saw it.

Again, has Clayton Moore read anything about this topic? Why does he post so much misinformation?