Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread
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Nick Terry
Illuminator
24.8.42: “Die Versorgung der bisher mit 1,5 Millionen Juden angenommenen Bevölkerungsmenge fällt weg, und zwar bis zu einer angenommenen Menge von 300 000 Juden, die noch im deutschen Interesse als Handwerker oder sonstwie arbeiten. Für diese sollen die jüdischen Rationssätze zuzüglich gewisser Sonderzuteilungen, die sich für die Aufrechterhaltung der Arbeitskraft als notwendig herausgestellt haben, beibehalten bleiben. Die anderen Juden, insgesamt 1,2 Millionen, werden nicht mehr mit Lebensmitteln versorgt.”[FONT="][1][/FONT]
[FONT="][1][/FONT] Diensttagebuch, p.549 (Regierungssitzung of 24.8.42).
“Am gestrigen Tage hat zB eine vertrauliche Sitzung der Generalgouvernements-Regierung stattgefunden, die sich mit der Ernte-Erfassung befasste. Der Leiter der Abteilung Ernährung und Landwirtschaft hat bekanntlich versucht, dass vom Reichsmarschall geforderte Soll in Höhe von 500 000 to Getrede zu ermässigen. Das ist nicht gelungen, Infolgedessen bleibt es bei der vom Reichsmarschall festgesetzten Ablieferungsquote.
Man beabsichtigt nunmehr ab 1. Januar den Juden überhaupt keine Verpflegung mehr zu geben, die Verpflegungssätze für die Polen beachtlich zu kürzen und für die Rüstungsarbeiter keinerlei Erhöhungen mehr zuzulassen. Ich habe an sich dagegen keine Bedenken, denn zuerst kommt das deutsche Volk und dann erst irgendwelche Hilfsvölker. Ich zweifele nur daran, dass diese Massnahmen auch nur einen irgendwie gearteten Erfolg zeitigen werden. Die breite Masse der Polen wird sich im Schwarzhandel doch das zu verschaffen wissen, was sie benötigt. Die im deutschen Interesse tätigen Polen werden unter diesen Massnahmen zu leiden haben. Die Arbeitsleistung der Polen wird zurückgehen.[FONT="][1][/FONT]
[FONT="][1][/FONT] Beauftragter des Reichsleiters Bormann im OKW-Stab zbV, Bericht Nr. 4 (Distrikt Krakau), 27.8.42, BA NS 6/795, pp.155-6
That's some of the raw data. You can drop it into Google translate and probably work out how stupid you're being.
Or you can read recent books in English like Lizzie Collingwood's The Taste of War; or Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction, and comprehend the overall - changing - context.
"Forty-eight states and the District of Columbia have social-studies standards that are crafted by their respective departments of education (the Alabama Department of Education, the South Dakota Department of Education, etc.). Teachers are required to address these standards-all of which include study of the Holocaust-in their classes. "
That sounds like most states mandate some sort of holocaust education in their schools.
uke2se
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I just clicked the different states in the link Saggs provided. If you think the information in the link is faulty, please let Saggs know.
uke2se
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I doubt Dogzilla is any more interested than Saggy in researching why his many arguments from incredulity are utter nonsense.
I was asked to prove any atrocity using the same standards as the holocaust. I did that. My evidence was rejected because rejecting evidence is what holocaust deniers do. I pointed out that when a denier rejects evidence, they can tell you why they reject it. I then asked why my evidence was rejected. And I'm still waiting.
uke2se
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Correct.
Lie. You did no such thing.
You presented no evidence, but you are right that you and other holocaust deniers reject evidence. Well, deny is a better word.
It was rejected because it was non-existant. It is difficult for anyone to accept what isn't there.
Feel free to prove me wrong. Demonstrate a single atrocity to the same standard you demand for the holocaust. Alternatively, link to a post where you do so. You cannot do either.
Nick Terry
Illuminator
Extermination through work in the strict sense was applied only to special categories of largely non-Jewish prisoners handed over by Thierack, the minister of justice, to Himmler in late 1942, for internment in concentration camps.
The term has become a kind of metaphor for the entire slave labour system, but in strict terms this is not entirely accurate. There were quite sharp divisions between labouring and non-labouring prisoners, which on repeated occasions led to the mass extinction of large groups of people, eg in 1941 with the Soviet POWs, and in 1942 with the Jews of the Generalgouvernement.
Before these specific events, rationing had been imposed across occupied Europe, and it is no surprise that Jews came last in the eyes of the Nazis. Thus when they were in ghettos and forced labour camps (not concentration camps), it was hardly unusual to undersupply them for racist reasons, and thus decimate the potential workforce who were often dropping like flies after a few weeks in a badly provisioned forced labour camp. That's what happened in 1940-41 in Poland.
Once the 'surplus' Jews had been exterminated, this left a few hundred thousand labouring Jews interned in camps and increasingly, in concentration camps. In January 1943 there were more Jews working in forced labour camps than concentration camps. By mid-1944, there were virtually no forced labour camps left as they had either been liquidated or transformed into sub-camps of the concentration camp system.
The concentration camps expanded considerably in this period, going from around 100,000 inmates in 1942 to 500,000 inmates in the summer of 1944 and 700,000 by January 1945, including Jews and non-Jews.
In 1940-42, the purpose of the 'classic' camps was to punish political and other opponents, thus deaths were more or less factored in to the equation. From 1942, the concentration camps were harnessed to industrial and other production, which caused huge problems in adjusting the mentality of the prewar generation of camp commandants and other officers. The death toll was reduced in 1943, but deaths were never reduced back down to the small numbers seen before 1939.
It should be no surprise that camp inmates were fed at lower ration scales than ordinary forced labourers, they were close to last on the priority list. If they were fed better, then a spell in a concentration camp would not be punishment for Russian and Polish workers, who together formed a very high proportion of the KZ inmate population by 1943.
The loss of life from malnutrition, maltreatment and the imposition of forced labour inside the camps was in part the result of the contradictory aims of the entire system. These contradictions are probably intrinsic to all major labour camp systems, and we find them unsurprisingly also in the Soviet GULag system, where 600,000 people died during WWII.
The Nazis continued to distinguish strongly between labouring and non-labouring prisoners, but the types of work demanded from KZ inmates changed. Working on construction sites digging tunnels for underground factories, as at Dora-Mittelbau, was going to be a mankiller pretty much come what may. Women prisoners assigned to sit down work in factories are going to have a higher survival rate just by the nature of the work.
In 1944-45, the greatly expanded camp system designated a number of sub-camps, and eventually even an entire camp, as essentially a dumping ground for worn out, exhausted inmates. Some of the worn out inmates were murdered in gas chambers at Ravensbrueck and other camps, others simply sent to the dumping ground camps.
The biggest such camp was Belsen, but Belsen also served as a holding camp for exchange prisoners, and was subdivided into various different camps. That's why some prisoners could be liberated from Belsen in decent shape whereas the majority were not; they were the lucky survivors of multiple decisions to transfer worn out prisoners and evacuation transports to a single site, which rapidly became overcrowded and thus an ideal incubator for a typhus epidemic. The same thing had happened on the same site in 1941 when the Nazis mishandled the transfer of Soviet POWs to Germany.
(the last paragraph will surely sail over Saggy's head, and I predict a pointless repetition of his usual blether, but it needs saying nonetheless for the benefit of sane people.)
It's pretty important to understand that the Nazis used a wide variety of systems to incarcerate different people for different purposes, and that there were substantial transfers between the systems. Prisons still functioned in the war, and held German as well as non-German inmates. The death rate rose considerably during the war, and reached fairly substantial levels in e.g. the Emsland camps on the North German moors. Germans and non-Germans were sentenced to prison for punitive reasons, as is hardly unknown in human history. The same prisons also held inmates awaiting execution, and the rate of executions also rose during the war. Obviously, decisions were made to kill some people when a strictly rational choice would have been to keep them alive to work. But the same decisions were made in other contexts - eg in Stalinist Russia, that place you hate to compare this stuff to.
In the occupied territories, there were even more prisons, and because rations were generally lower in the occupied territories, especially in Eastern Europe, the death rates were very high there, too. Plus those prisons and prison camps were also frequently sites of large scale serial executions. But then in the eyes of the Nazis, Poles and Russians needed killin' in larger numbers to whup their asses and make the Untermenschen into obedient little slaves. Eventually, in early 1943, Himmler decided to allow prisoners to be transferred from occupied Soviet Union to concentration camps in Poland and Germany. This was a 'concession' to the labour shortage, or rather a way for Himmler to build up 'his' workforce in the KZs. At the same time, Himmler also ordered an increased rate of arrest for foreign workers in Germany, for entirely selfish reasons. By 1944 Speer complained about this, since 10s of 1000s of foreign workers were being arrested in Germany every month and sent to the concentration camps, where quite a few died. From a strictly rational perspective this was dysfunctional, but other than imbeciles, nobody ever thought that governments, much less the Nazi regime, are entirely rational.
Nick Terry
Illuminator
Where was that?
Please LINK to the post. Don't just handwave and tell people to search for posts that probably don't say what you think they say. BACK UP your assertions with evidence. In this case, the evidence of your own past discussions and posts. Otherwise, people will rightly conclude that you're rewriting the history of the thread.
You're the one doing a victory dance here, you've got the burden of proof to back up your assertions.
Nick Terry
Illuminator
No, I asked YOU to link to the post.
This doesn't actually jibe with my memory of the discussion. On the contrary: I seem to remember writing quite a few posts addressing your blether which went unanswered.
More of the usual idiocy from NT. The state of Belsen at the end of the war was a disaster, and it is well demonstrated by the movie the Brits shot and the photos taken, the movie is online and the photos can be seen here ...
http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=0
But, the simple fact is that those that died died of disease, and not intentional starvation or any other Zionist fantasy death.
The idea that Belsen differed because it was a 'holding camp' is more pure idiocy, and easily refuted, for example, by this picture taken when Dachau was liberated ....
http://www.humanitas-international.org/archive/dachau-liberation/inmates-lib640.jpg
These are pictures you'll never see in the media because there are prima facie evidence that the holohoax is a gigantic lie. The fact that they are never shown has only one explanation, that is that the Zionists control the media.
uke2se
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Like you said, Nick. Right over his head.
When are you going to fess up to your many lies in this thread, Saggs? When are you going to provide any evidence for any of your many assertions? Never? That's what I thought.
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TSR
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ummmm. I did. And then read the document, unlike you and Sags. That's how I know the answer to my questions is "no".
You obviously did not just like Sags, since if you had you would know this.
.
Nick Terry
Illuminator
This is the same Dachau at which in the first four months of 1945, the Nazis recorded the deaths of 15,384 prisoners?
Why do you think the onus is on me to prove you wrong?
The holoCAUST is established historical FACT.
If you disagree, then prove yourself right...
Intellectual cowardice is so unbecoming...
...Is an idiot.
Well, we all know that Saggyhoax couldn't possibly write a book...reading a book is also out of the question given Saggyhoax's colossal ignorance, so exactly what book are you referring to??
Saggyhoax's hatred of Jews is boundless...of course he is saying things here he would never say "in person", because he is a coward.
So "don't investigate", Saggyhoax posts, because he is an intellectual coward, and he is scared to death of being exposed as the idiot he is.
Says the ignorant Saggyhoax.
Say that to someone's face, coward.
Yes...the truth is that Saggyhoax is exposed as an intellectual idiot every time he posts.
If they did, then why are you still able to post, saggyhoax??
But lets assume that they do for a second. They're not going to take kindly to being "exposed", so you should be very afraid when the "hit squads" take notice of you...
So all you have to do to "prove yourself" right is to disappear...your "chums" here will assume you have been eliminated.
It's a win for everybody.
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