Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

And for every task there is a learning curve and the need for supervision and quality control. Debilitating and demoralizing workers and eventually killing them makes little sense if there is value to their efforts.

You could help yourself by reading a bit about 1) Nazi wartime labor policy, 2) Nazi racial attitudes, especially with regard to Jews and Slavs, 3) Nazi policy making in general, 4) the economics of slavery in the Americas, 5) economic theory: this sort of stuff would save you from the embarrassing repetition of the myth of the Germans in WW2 behaving as an omniscient and purely rational actor.

 

[uke2se]

I grew up in Sweden, and during my early school years in the 1980s we didn't really learn about the holocaust at all. I taught myself during frequent trips to France (visiting all the war memorials in Normandy) and Holland.

In the early 90s when I had reached high school, there was a widespread rash of far-right and neo-Nazi motivated violence in Sweden, and finally the government took action and introduced mandatory holocaust studies for high-school students. As I recall, it was a themed week of workshops and stuff.

Since then I haven't encountered holocaust studies in the school system. Working as a substitute teacher in elementary and middle school, it wasn't on the curriculum.

 

[funk de fino]

You do realize there were more than a few American soldiers sent to those work camps, right?

Were they all liars too?

And Brits. My late grandfather was in them. Captured at St Valery during the rearguard.

 

[Saggy]

You do realize there were more than a few American soldiers sent to those work camps, right?

Were they all liars too?

You need to book up a bit, Rob. No Americans or Brits were sent into the camps where the holohoax is now alleged to have taken place.

So, if you go to deathcamp.org or the USHMM or whatever hoax site you like, you'll 'learn' that the death camps were the 4 Reinhard camps plus Auschwitz and Majdanek. All these camps were liberated by the Russians.

Of course you have been repeatedly lied to, and told even by Pres. Obama that his uncle liberated Auschwitz. This type of idiocy would normally pass comment but the Pres did get called on it.

And, you've seen the pics from Belsen, taken after the war, of prisoners that died from disease associated with overcrowding, typhus, dysentery, no medicine, no food, inadequate water, etc. What you have not seen as it has not been published in the Zionist controlled media, is the pictures of healthy prisoners at the camps. You can see them now on the internet, however, ... e.g.

http://www.codoh.com/memorial/belsen2.jpg

http://www.humanitas-international.org/archive/dachau-liberation/inmates-lib640.jpg

 

[Saggy]

Since then I haven't encountered holocaust studies in the school system. Working as a substitute teacher in elementary and middle school, it wasn't on the curriculum.

I suppose it depends on where you live. Now, in FL, holohoax education is mandated in all grades. The USHMM has a web page describing the state laws for each state that mandate hoax education.

See the FL manual for hoax education in grades K-3, that K for KINDERGARTEN, here ...

http://www.hdec.org/resource_manual.htm

 

[TSR]

I suppose it depends on where you live. Now, in FL, holohoax education is mandated in all grades. The USHMM has a web page describing the state laws for each state that mandate hoax education.

See the FL manual for hoax education in grades K-3, that K for KINDERGARTEN, here ...

http://www.hdec.org/resource_manual.htm

.
And can you point out in that manual where the Holocaust education is for those K for KINDERARTEN kids, please?


No?


Okay, First Grade?



No?





Second? Third?







That would again be "no" and "no", unless in the reading that you didn't do the last time you brought this up has now been done and shows something that no one else can see?







Or would that be too much like the research you disdain? Why do research when it's so much easier to mindlessly parrot the lies of others, eh, Saggs?
.

 

[uke2se]

I suppose it depends on where you live. Now, in FL, holohoax education is mandated in all grades. The USHMM has a web page describing the state laws for each state that mandate hoax education.

See the FL manual for hoax education in grades K-3, that K for KINDERGARTEN, here ...

http://www.hdec.org/resource_manual.htm

So your earlier statements about how you couldn't escape holocaust education in school was untruthful then? I mean, Florida isn't the world, and if it would seem that not even the state of Florida has mandatory holocaust education.

I don't know, Saggs. It doesn't look good for this latest assertion of yours.

 

[MG1962]

http://www.codoh.com/memorial/belsen2.jpg

http://www.humanitas-international.org/archive/dachau-liberation/inmates-lib640.jpg

I love how you throw these out without any context. You have no idea where those photos were taken, when they were taken, or who is in them

 

[TheRedWorm]

Little poll here. Saggy's been going on about some kinda Jew indoctrination stuff, something about how from the time you're a kid, you get the Holocaust hammered into you over and over again. I'm wondering how many of you that are American had this experience.

I grew up in the Northeastern United States and attended a public school system where about one-third of the students were Jewish. I also grew up with mixed Jewish-Gentile ancestry. For my own part, the total number of lessons I received in twelve years of public schooling was zero point zero zero.

Throw in college as well, which was private Catholic. Zero times.

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself.

For real.

So how 'bout you?

I was aware of the Holocaust from outside sources, (Shindler's List having been released when I was 7) but not from school. It wasn't until my Senior year in High School, taking a class about WW2, that there was any serious discussion about the Holocaust. So again, sags is STILL massively dishonest.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You can find the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills (TEKS) standards at this link: http://www.tea.state.tx.us/index2.aspx?id=3643. Typing in Germany and Holocaust, I searched the three PDFs (elementary, middle grades, high school) and found but three references to the Holocaust, all in high school and of the "including" variety.

pp 5 - 6 US History (D) analyze major issues of World War II, such as fighting the war on multiple fronts, including the Holocaust; the internment of German, Italian, and Japanese Americans, and Executive Order 9066; and the development of conventional and atomic weapons
(E) analyze major military events of World War II, including the Battle of Midway, the U.S. military advancement through the Pacific Islands, the Bataan Death March, the invasion of Normandy, fighting the war on multiple fronts, and the liberation of concentration camps

p 23 World History (C) explain the major causes and events of World War II, including the German invasions of Poland and the Soviet Union, the Holocaust, Japanese imperialism, the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Normandy landings, and the dropping of the atomic bombs.

p 26 World History (C) identify examples of politically motivated mass murders in Cambodia, China, Latin America, the Soviet Union , and Armenia;
(D) identify examples of genocide, including the Holocaust and genocide in the Balkans, Rwanda , and Darfur

(hoping I edited these correctly, as the strike-throughs wouldn't copy over to JREF)

 

[Saggy]

You can find the laws regarding mandated holohoax education in your state here ...

http://www.ushmm.org/education/foreducators/states/index.php?state=TX

 

[uke2se]

You can find the laws regarding mandated holohoax education in your state here ...

http://www.ushmm.org/education/foreducators/states/index.php?state=TX

Nobody is mandated to teach anything of any holohoax. Let's take a sample and see what is required about teaching the holocaust:

Alaska: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Hawaii: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Washington: Every public high school is encouraged to include in its curriculum instruction on the events of the period in modern world history known as the Holocaust, during which six million Jews and millions of non-Jews were exterminated.

Oregon: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Idaho: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Utah: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

New Mexico: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

South Dakota: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Oklahoma: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Iowa: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Arkansas: There is no legislation regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

Illinois: Every public elementary school and high school shall include in its curriculum a unit of instruction studying the events of the Nazi atrocities of 1933 to 1945... To reinforce that lesson, such curriculum shall include an additional unit of instruction studying other acts of genocide across the globe. This unit shall include, but not be limited to, the Armenian Genocide, the Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, and more recent atrocities in Cambodia, Bosnia, Rwanda, and Sudan.

Indiana: The Indiana academic standards for middle school social studies do not address the Holocaust. Fascism is included in the 6th grade social studies standards (6.1.16). The Indiana academic standards for high school social studies address the Holocaust in Standard 5.1 (The United States and World War II, 1939-1945) and Standard 7.2 (Conflict and Cooperation).

Alabama: On June 1, 1999 the Alabama State Legislature passed an act, HB140, to establish the Alabama Holocaust Commission. The Commission will "Provide assistance to the public and private schools, colleges, and universities with respect to implementation of Holocaust education and awareness programs."

Maine: There is currently no legislation pending regarding the teaching of the Holocaust.

This is just a random sample. I'm sure there are many more states with some form of legislation for teaching the holocaust, but it is a proven fact that many states do not have any such legislation. Out of the ones in this sample, only a few can really be said to ensure that the holocaust is taught. Furthermore, most of these states passed legislation on this within the last 30 years, meaning there was no legislation prior to 1980 or thereabouts. That legislation has since been passed coinsides as I see it with a return of facism and neo-Nazi groups.

I find it troublesome that not all states have legislated requirements to teach about the holocaust and other atrocities. It is vital that young people learn from history in order to prevent it from being repeated in the future.

Oh, and Saggy lied again.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You can find the laws regarding mandated holohoax education in your state here ...

http://www.ushmm.org/education/foreducators/states/index.php?state=TX

Does this sort of linking without thinking represent your usual methodology?

What you've linked to is a USHMM page providing a listing of state offered resources and contacts (nothing mandated) and then citing the US History standard requirements at a summary level . . . dating from 1997 . . . with a minor reference to the Holocaust,

The student is expected to: C) Identify examples of political, economic, and social oppression and violations of human rights throughout history, including slavery, the Holocaust, other examples of genocide, and politically motivated mass murders in Cambodia, China, and the Soviet Union.

The Holocaust topic is nested in a couple of paragraphs of coverage mandates and includes one reference to the Holocaust, that's it.

What I linked to shows the current edits of these 1997 standards with both US and World History standards from the Texas Education Agency (TEA) website. My link has the advantage to yours of showing all the Holocaust requirements and showing them in relation to and in context with the totality of social sciences requirements. In neither case, the USHMM site or the Texas webpage, is it indicated that there is very much coverage of the Holocaust required. The Holocaust appears as a minor fact to be learned along with hundreds and hundreds of other minor facts. Also, in both the 1997 and current draft version of the TEKS there is less mandated coverage of the Holocaust required than my survey of textbooks shows to be actually taught, which itself is minuscule.

Given the significance of the mass murders during WW2 and Nazi war crimes, the Texas standards in fact seem almost farcical - reflecting perhaps a bias within the Texas establishment. Certainly, students should learn more about the Nazi slaughter of the Jews, abuse of POWs, and other war crimes than either the USHMM site or TEA site suggest they must - and will.

Further, to clarify, Texas is not my state. I don't live in Texas, if that's what you're suggesting. I once lived in Austin, but it is debatable whether Austin is in Texas or merely surrounded by it. As my avatar says, my preferred location is in Soul City, at 926 East McLemore, where the former Stax-Volt studios stood. This is not in Texas, and Texas is not my state, simply the one I chose to comment on here, as it is a large state and said to influence state curriculums across the US. But I live elsewhere and, alas, Texas is not mine.

You should learn to read your links better as your link to the USHMM only proves that you are wrong about mandates of significant or unusual coverage of the Holocaust. The event is listed just like many, many other events which students will touch upon in Texas social sciences courses. And touch on most likely very briefly.

 

[Clayton Moore]

You could help yourself by reading a bit about 1) Nazi wartime labor policy, 2) Nazi racial attitudes, especially with regard to Jews and Slavs, 3) Nazi policy making in general, 4) the economics of slavery in the Americas, 5) economic theory: this sort of stuff would save you from the embarrassing repetition of the myth of the Germans in WW2 behaving as an omniscient and purely rational actor.

That's just babble. Work was work. It needed to be done in a timely manner. It wasn't a game of red light, green light.


You could help by telling the truth and skipping the nonsense.

 

[Dogzilla]

Michael Shermer isn't a holocaust historian, nor have you been able to show how even he holds the holocaust to a different standard than any other historical event.

And Raul Hilberg was a political scientist so I guess we can dismiss anything that historian-wannabe wrote about the holocaust. I demonstrated perfectly how Shermer believes that merely having no evidence to support an argument isn't a reason to reject the argument when you're talking about the holocaust but rejects that form of reasoning when you're not talking about the holocaust.

You have tried and failed with several analogies, but the simple fact remains: you have not proved your assertion.

No. I was challenged to provide one example of the holocaust being held to a different standard than other events and I did so. I gave several analogies to try and help some of the slower members of our studio audience understand the concept.

It should be noted that I gave only one example of one person applying one standard differently. You guys have demonstrated to us that the double standard regarding the holocaust is more universal with your failed attempts to explain why my original example isn't a double standard.

If you want to rebut my point you need to explain why my example isn't a double standard instead of just saying over and over and over again that I didn't demonstrate a double standard. Seriously, y'all continually slam Saggy for saying the same thing over and over again without providing any support and yet you're doing the exact same thing. OMG! I just discovered another double standard!!!

 

[uke2se]

That's just babble. Work was work. It needed to be done in a timely manner. It wasn't a game of red light, green light.

That is just babble. If you understood anything about the holocaust or WWII history, you wouldn't be posting these stupid things. But, as you yourself have admitted, you know absolutely nothing about the history you are so desperate to deny.

You could help by telling the truth and skipping the nonsense.

You could help by shutting up, since you seem unable to tell the truth and spout nothing but nonsense.

 

[uke2se]

I demonstrated perfectly how Shermer believes that merely having no evidence to support an argument isn't a reason to reject the argument when you're talking about the holocaust but rejects that form of reasoning when you're not talking about the holocaust.

Nope, you didn't. You probably think you did, but you really didn't.

No. I was challenged to provide one example of the holocaust being held to a different standard than other events and I did so. I gave several analogies to try and help some of the slower members of our studio audience understand the concept.

No, you didn't. Sure, you gave several analogies, and when you were explained to why your analogies were stupid, you merely repeated the analogies.

It should be noted that I gave only one example of one person applying one standard differently. You guys have demonstrated to us that the double standard regarding the holocaust is more universal with your failed attempts to explain why my original example isn't a double standard.

No, we haven't. We have demonstrated that there is no double standard among historians. You have demonstrated that in face of all evidence, you are able to deny simple facts. Congratulations.

We have also shown that you are the one holding a double standard when it comes to the holocaust as you have thus far been unable to present evidence for any atrocity to the same standards you demand for the holocaust, despite being asked to several times.

If you want to rebut my point you need to explain why my example isn't a double standard instead of just saying over and over and over again that I didn't demonstrate a double standard.

That was done. You either ignored it or didn't understand it.

Seriously, y'all continually slam Saggy for saying the same thing over and over again without providing any support and yet you're doing the exact same thing. OMG! I just discovered another double standard!!!

We are repeating basic stuff that you two Hitler-huggers should know by now. Since it is apparent that merely proving things once isn't enough to get you to understand something, we need to repeat it time and again. You probably should take some time to ponder if you're really able to continue this discussion. Your blinkers are soon covering your entire eyes.

 

[Dogzilla]

Little poll here. Saggy's been going on about some kinda Jew indoctrination stuff, something about how from the time you're a kid, you get the Holocaust hammered into you over and over again. I'm wondering how many of you that are American had this experience.

I grew up in the Northeastern United States and attended a public school system where about one-third of the students were Jewish. I also grew up with mixed Jewish-Gentile ancestry. For my own part, the total number of lessons I received in twelve years of public schooling was zero point zero zero.

Throw in college as well, which was private Catholic. Zero times.

Everything I know about the Holocaust I learned because I read about it myself.

For real.

So how 'bout you?

I don't recall learning anything about the holocaust when I was in high school and college. One of the teachers in my high school had been in a Japanese internment camp when he was a kid. He talked about his experiences to my Social Studies class. Two of my high school teachers and one middle school teacher were German or Austrian Jews who fled Nazi Germany but they never spoke to the students about their experiences.

Most of the fathers of my friends (and my own) had been in the military during the war but most hadn't seen combat and those who did were in the Pacific theater. My interest in the topic was sparked by watching The World at War when it was first broadcast on PBS over here. Everything I know about the war or the holocaust has been self taught.

But this was back when Big Macs came in styrofoam packaging and marijuana was brown and sold by the lid. Today holocaust education is recommended or mandated in many states. I don't know any teenagers or young adults today who haven't been taught something about the holocaust in their schools.

 

[Dogzilla]

And for every task there is a learning curve and the need for supervision and quality control. Debilitating and demoralizing workers and eventually killing them makes little sense if there is value to their efforts.

Which is what makes the idea of "extermination through work" so inane. It's easy to starve somebody to death. It's very difficult to starve somebody almost to death and then maintain them in that state while they are performing manual labor. Even holding a gun to somebody's head isn't going to compensate for the effects of starvation. When the car runs out of gas, slashing its tires won't make it go faster.

 

[uke2se]

Which is what makes the idea of "extermination through work" so inane. It's easy to starve somebody to death. It's very difficult to starve somebody almost to death and then maintain them in that state while they are performing manual labor. Even holding a gun to somebody's head isn't going to compensate for the effects of starvation. When the car runs out of gas, slashing its tires won't make it go faster.

You know this from experience?

The Nazis learned from experience that you are wrong.