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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Nick Terry said:
Since when was it claimed that 6 million Jews had to serve as Sonderkommandos, Dogzilla? Your ability to follow a conversation appears to be as shockingly poor as all your other cognitive abilities.
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I never heard that before. Who said six million Jews had to serve as SK?
 
Cyrix686 said:
Of course, why do you have such a problem with it?


That verse is from a far older lullaby. Do you lot think that a baby understands words? Of course not. Sounds, rhythm and tunes, perhaps. Meanings. No. You think a composition in lullaby form is unique because it contains murderous imagery? Nothing of the kind. A recent academic study into the lullaby genre (yes song-scholarship into lullabies is possible) found that in Non Indo European Finno-Urgric and also in IE Slavic cultures, that there were plenty of lullabies to be found dealing with violence. The rabbit's Yiddish offering is therefore not unusual in the genre. World-wide it would not be unusual.

Ignorance is to be expected. Of course I wouldn't expect any of you deniers to know of these things, how can you possibly when monotonous incredulity is your diet.

But now you do. I've also saved Saggy and Chipzilla from looking foolish.

LGR's silly whining about crematoria imagery is equally pathetic and not worth pursuing
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Holocaust aside, interesting point I'd never thought of. It is true of nursery rhymes, too -- violence, whoring, drinking, and all sorts of mayhem. And Google not needed to know this, either.

Now, back to the Holocaust, incredulity from supposed common sense - this common sense being either the circumscribed experience of the denier or a strawman pose meant to ridicule the Jewish victims - has long been a Rev staple.
 
Don't we know it too. A little scholarship has rent many a hole in these pathetic denier try-ons.
 
Just so the deniers dont think the Jews have a mortage on violent songs. This is the last fourl lines of the English classic Oranges and lemons

Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.

Chop chop chop chop
The last man's dead
 
LemmyCaution said:
This is a strange and very poorly thought-out post. At most a few 1000 men served in the Sonderkommando. IIRC the largest size the SK ever reached at Birkenau was 400 and something. It isn't exactly clear how many times the squad "turned over"; the SK's at the AR camps were smaller.

As for Jews dragooned into other parts of the Nazi administration of terror, such as Jewish police in ghettos or workers at Kanada in Birkenau, the gold Jews and sorters and crafts-workers at Treblinka, and so on, these captive Jews mostly toiled to survive, under threat of violent punishment, deportation, or death. The number of Jews who voluntarily cooperated with the Nazis is minuscule. Almost all Jews working "for the Nazis," from those in the SK's to those in ghetto workshops, were under some form of compulsion.

Do our deniers know for sure what they would do under similar, terrorized conditions? I doubt it, just as I doubt that most people know such a thing. But it is probable that most people in this circumstance will try to survive, even if it means doing what repels them--and working for the Nazis surely, judging from the writings Jews left behind, repelled most European Jews.
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I suppose five thousand Jews is a "miniscule" number compared to the Jewish population of Europe prior to WWII. But these Jews weren't "terrorized" into participating in the destruction process. Give me a break!! Do you think the Jews recruited by Christian Wirth were "terrorized" into killing their brethren? Were they "terrorized" into taking their share of the plunder and using it to finance, among other things, a Jewish wedding where over a thousand invited guests participated in a "gluttonous consumption of food and alcoholic drinks" at the labor camp near Lublin?
 
uke2se said:
Yes, I too would like to know where exactly Nizkor promotes hatred of Germans, and why the germans in this thread doesn't see it that way.

Dogzilla? Over to you.
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Nizkor promotes the ridiculous story that the Germans attempted to exterminate the Jews during World War II and of building gas chambers to further that end. Replace the word "Germans" with "Israelis" and "Jews" with "Palestinians" and I think you'll understand the hate.
 
MG1962 said:
Just so the deniers dont think the Jews have a mortage on violent songs. This is the last fourl lines of the English classic Oranges and lemons

Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
Here comes a chopper to chop off your head.

Chop chop chop chop
The last man's dead
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You may be interested to know that some scholars believe that this was nothing more than a series of rather saucy double-entendres regarding deflowering on a wedding night. I am sure if you google it, you will find this interpretation.

Perhaps our Treblinka lullaby has similar happy double-meanings? But this leaves us with the problem of the Crematorium at Treblinka.....?

What exactly is being referred to here?
 
Dogzilla said:
But these Jews weren't "terrorized" into participating in the destruction process.
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I offer the Milgram Experiment as a partial explanation. This is not going to explain all cases but it does explain some cases concerning kapos.

The Milgram Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Milgram devised his psychological study to answer the question: "Was it that Eichmann and his accomplices in the Holocaust had mutual intent, in at least with regard to the goals of the Holocaust?" In other words, "Was there a mutual sense of morality among those involved?" Milgram's testing suggested that it could have been that the millions of accomplices were merely following orders, despite violating their deepest moral beliefs. The experiments have been repeated many times, with consistent results within societies
 
Dogzilla said:
It's only a forgery if you hate Germans.
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Then the evidence for the Holocaust you keep dismissing is only a forgery if you hate Jews.

Now come on. Prove any one Allied atrocity to the same standards that you demand the Holocaust be proven to you.
 
Dogzilla said:
I suppose five thousand Jews is a "miniscule" number compared to the Jewish population of Europe prior to WWII. But these Jews weren't "terrorized" into participating in the destruction process. Give me a break!! Do you think the Jews recruited by Christian Wirth were "terrorized" into killing their brethren? Were they "terrorized" into taking their share of the plunder and using it to finance, among other things, a Jewish wedding where over a thousand invited guests participated in a "gluttonous consumption of food and alcoholic drinks" at the labor camp near Lublin?
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I didn't say that every person who cooperated with the Germans was terrorized into doing so, did I? Please re-read my post. And please do not misstate and strawman. But, yes, the vast majority of those Jews who played various roles in the destruction process were terrorized or forced. One must realize, in the first place, that the Nazis created a general state of terror for Jews in occupied countries. To take the example of Warsaw, a Jew who chose to live outside the ghetto did so under threat of death, which threat was carried out many times. Forced labor for Jews inside the ghetto and at labor camps to which Jews were transported, one example being the original camp at Treblinka, was in practice. Within the ghetto, random and coordinated acts of terror were common, especially in 1942. As for the SK, who were distinct from forced laborers, they were all acting under compulsion and threat of death, having been transported by force to the death camps (roundups and deportations were often very violent, with many on the scene murders and with large numbers of deaths in transit) and made to serve as they did there. Further, they were held separately in all cases from others in these camps and witnessed regularly the most extreme form of the violence and destructive acts of which their captors were capable.
 
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Dogzilla said:
Nizkor promotes the ridiculous story that the Germans attempted to exterminate the Jews during World War II and of building gas chambers to further that end. Replace the word "Germans" with "Israelis" and "Jews" with "Palestinians" and I think you'll understand the hate.
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Nizkor provides resources to study the tragic history of Nazi policies and practices during WWII, in which the Nazis attempted to exterminate the Jews of Europe by many means, including in gas chambers, and during which they mobilized some Germans and some of their allies to participate in the project. Replace the word Nazis with Khmer Rouge and Jews with class enemies, minorities, and religious groups and I think you will understand the value of Nizkor.

"Hate" would be more like sponsoring a website arguing that Poles are antisemites or Germans are secret Nazis. Or that the Jews had it coming or should be blamed for their fate in Europe. Nizkor is a resource for studying ugly historical facts, much as there are resources for studying the fate of the American Indians at the hands of European settlers and their descendants, for studying slavery in the Americas, or for understanding the Stalin period in the USSR.
 
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little grey rabbit said:
You may be interested to know that some scholars believe that this was nothing more than a series of rather saucy double-entendres regarding deflowering on a wedding night. I am sure if you google it, you will find this interpretation.

Perhaps our Treblinka lullaby has similar happy double-meanings? But this leaves us with the problem of the Crematorium at Treblinka.....?

What exactly is being referred to here?
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You should drop this, they've already made you look ridiculous enough.
 
Your pursuit of a cheap laugh whilst you backpedal out of this temporary construct of yours is noted Little Grey Rabbit.
 
Cyrix686 said:
Your pursuit of a cheap laugh whilst you backpedal out of this temporary construct of yours is noted Little Grey Rabbit.
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What sort of pompous nonsense is this?

Backpedalling? Where? That socalled lullaby is sheer hoaxing lunacy. I am happy to say it as many times until you get the message.

THERE WAS NO CREMATORIUM IN TREBLINKA!!!!!!
Leaving aside the surreal absurdity of the lullaby itself.
 
Is it the face of Elie Wiesel?

Every week I look into a revisionist site; it makes sense for me to do so because I do not regard revisionism as a mad idea. A mad idea should command our interest only if it is widely believed, eg, Creationism. But the revisionists are a small harmless moribund sect who, but for their persecution by Zionists, might arguably be as forgotten as the Moonlanding deniers have now become.

The most interesting – or least puerile - thing on Codoh’s front page this week is a contribution by Carolyn Yeager, continuing her war against Elie Wiesel

http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6632&sid=c2fcf293c87019aa68eae7744aceec15#p47743

Yeager has a long way to go if she wants to convince anyone outside her sect that Wiesel was never present in Buchenwald. She would not have far to go, I think, to convince mainstream opinion that Wiesel was not present in the famous photograph that he claimed to be in. Within her post at the link above Yeager has linked us to that famous photograph.

The group photo taken on 16 April 1945 shows Buchenwald survivors in hut 56. Wiesel is supposed to have been in the boys’s hut 66. The puzzled face with the receding hairline, which Wiesel has designated as his own, does not to my eye resemble any known image of him. Less subjectively, I would have thought, it is certainly not the face of any sixteen-year old boy. And in fact, most of these lived-in faces do not belong to sixteen year old boys. Is anyone willing to argue that this is indeed the face of Elie?

Yeagar writes:

Elie Wiesel inexplicably once told an interviewer for the German weekly Die Zeit that this picture was taken in the Children’s Block and all these men were really teenagers even though they looked old. (Source: “1945 und Heute: Holocaust,” Die Zeit, April 21, 1995.)
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Yeagar offers two other photos of, she says, Elie as 15 year old youth before imprisonment, and one of him nearly 17 taken in Paris no later than October 1945. The latter is recognisably our famous Elie. In less than six months he has grown a very good head of hair. But for all I know, that might be possible in adolescence, when hair grows rapidly. She notes that Wiesel claimed to have gone into hospital three days after liberation, which would be two days before this photo was taken. But the three days could be written off as an approximation of memory. The most compelling evidence that the mature puzzled face does not belong to Wiesel remains the face itself.

In the bottom left corner of the group photo is another, indubitably youthful face which Yeagar claims for that other Pinocchio, Myklos Gruener (who nevertheless was also supposed to have been in Childrens Bock). She offers no evidence of for this here. I shall continue to regard the various anomalies in the Wiesel biography merely as unexplained puzzles, until I have been shown an explanation which does not generate even bigger puzzles. It is one thing to show that Wiesel was a fibber and a mythomane. It is quite another to prove that he was an outright imposter. But anything which reduces the credibility of this sanctified humbug is all in a good cause.
 
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