Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

Not so veiled threats aside, you seem to stuck on this idea that the Nazis got the Jews to participate in their own destruction by holding a gun to their head.

Yes, that's right.

And no, I'm not threatening Clayton. I'm suggesting that he could meet me in person so I could pose this question, and he'd be forced to actually answer it, because he seems too chicken to answer it here.

I don't know if you're speaking literally or figuratively here. If you're speaking literally, you got six million Jews. That means six million guns held to six million heads for as long as those heads are attached to a living body. So you need six million Germans to hold the six million guns to six million Jewish heads. That's alot of men and alot of guns to be tied up while a war was going on--yet another human resources management problem that arises when you're talking about the holocaust.

Yes, because we all know that it's only possible to kill one person with a gun.

In 1927, this happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Care to reframe your point?

Now, if you're talking about motivating Jews by holding guns to their heads figuratively, what do you literally mean?

Physical force goes a long way, DZ.

 

[Dogzilla]

So are you saying that what Clayton Moore meant when he wrote was that the consensus is that some Jews were forced to take various roles (assisting in roundups and deportations, helping in logistics at various points, helping sort and salvage stolen goods, for example) in the extermination process, most often on pain of death, and that none of those roles involved Jewish people killing Jewish children, women, and men in gas chambers but did involve support tasks?

Jews played pivotal roles in the destruction process without which the holocaust would not have happened. Perhaps they didn't actually dump the Zyklon into the gas chambers but they were involved in every step of the way.

If the latest fiasco surrounding John Demjanuk is valuable to our understanding of the holocaust in any way, it is that dire circumstances and life or death choices are not an excuse to participate in mass murder. Every Judenrat or Sondercommando is guilty of mass murder by virtue of their participation in it, no matter how limited the participation.

Unfortunately, it's too late to bring most of those murderers to justice. However, we can have a sense of peace knowing that the descendents of these murderers will never forget that Bube or Zeidy survived because he/she was willing to kill Jews.

 

[abaddon]

This goes back to a discussion we almost had several weeks ago. I can't name any SK who actually dumped the Zyklon into the gas chamber to kill the Jews. What about Germans who did? Are there any Germans who confessed to actually operating the gas chambers? Not the one's who knew about it. Not the one's who herded the procession of doomed souls into the gas chambers. Not the one's who saw somebody else dump the Zyklon. But the one's who donned the gas masks, pried open the cans of insecticide and poured them into the room?

http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/testimony.txt

At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up.

 

[Dogzilla]

Here's a helpful image:

[qimg]http://asylumeclectica.com/grim/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/lynching111.jpg[/qimg]

People used to bring bag lunches. Is it really so surprising that the things described as going on during WWII happened as well?

Thanks for blurring my face there. One thing I learned is never stand face to face with a guy wearing a Hitler mustache at a lynching. You never know if somebody is going whip out their cell phone and take a picture.

 

[Nick Terry]

The United States wasn't defeated in a war and occupied by hostile foreign powers who had access to any and all files maintained by any government entity and private citizen. Big difference.

This is what is commonly known as moving the goalposts, which is generally held to make the person performing this trick a dishonest sack of ****.

Your point, such as it was, claimed that there was no information known about Nazi extermination camps before the end of the war, which is flat-out false. Therefore your attempted comparison with alleged covered-up alien autopsies - ones supposedly covered up for something like 20 times the length of time that the Nazis tried (and failed) to keep extermination camps secret during WWII - can be dismissed.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the fact that despite unprecedented access to any and all government secrets, none of the Allies could find anything more damning than a few Bischoff memo-like documents to "prove" gas chambers and intent to exterminate.

This is likewise false.

But what does the need to rely on coerced confessions to prop up a ridiculous story have to do with the different standards used to "prove" the holocaust?

Oh, that's easy. You just displayed blatant double standards by assuming that the confessions were coerced, rather than actually presenting evidence to support this baseless assumption of yours.

So why use entirely different standards of evidence to support or debunk either one?

The only person using entirely different standards of evidence here is, I'm afraid to say, you.

 

[Nick Terry]

Jews played pivotal roles in the destruction process without which the holocaust would not have happened.

That is a very tall claim. Care to provide any, y'know, evidence for it?

Perhaps they didn't actually dump the Zyklon into the gas chambers but they were involved in every step of the way.

Jews drove the trains? Loaded the guns used by the guards?

If the latest fiasco surrounding John Demjanuk is valuable to our understanding of the holocaust in any way, it is that dire circumstances and life or death choices are not an excuse to participate in mass murder.

Are you seriously comparing the position of the Trawnikis, who were all given a choice about serving, and who if serving in the Reinhard camps spent all their spare time *********** prostitutes and drinking themselves silly in neighbouring villages to which they had walked like any other soldier off-duty going out on the razz, with the position of the Sonderkommandos?

Every Judenrat or Sondercommando is guilty of mass murder by virtue of their participation in it, no matter how limited the participation.

Please present the prosecution case against the Judenraete and Sonderkommandos, to at least the same standard of evidence as you demand from others when they accuse the Nazis of being guilty of murder.

Unfortunately, it's too late to bring most of those murderers to justice. However, we can have a sense of peace knowing that the descendents of these murderers will never forget that Bube or Zeidy survived because he/she was willing to kill Jews.

Please identify the Sonderkommando or Judenrat member called "Bube" or "Zeidy", or stfu, as it's patently obvious you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

 

[Chaos]

There's really nothing be said to somebody who says the holocaust isn't held to a different standard by explaining why it's held to a different standard.

How about you prove you´re not holding the Holocaust to a different standard, by proving any one Allied atrocity to the same standard you demand the Holocaust be proven to you.

Just one atrocity, Dogzilla. Just one.

 

[TSR]

There's really nothing be said to somebody who says the holocaust isn't held to a different standard by explaining why it's held to a different standard.

.
I don't believe I've offered any opinion on the general statement you attribute to me.

I have pointed out why the examples you offer do not support your whine, and you referred to the differences in the bodies of evidence themselves as "nonsense" rather than attempting to show why the lack of contemporary documentation or physical evidence in both cases does not, in fact, invalidate your attempt to draw equivalencies.

Offered two separate bodies of evidence which *are* roughly equivalent in type if not in volume, you explicitly state you are uninterested in one and completely ignore the other.

But even had I offered the opinion you dishonestly suggest that I have, why is there "nothing to say" to prove your point? Is it, as it appears, that you have nothing to actually support it other than exactly the kind of double standard you're whining about?
.

But thank you for granting me the right to demand chain of custody information about any physical evidence to want to present for the holocaust. This is really a very limited weapon in my arsenal because you guys don't really offer much in the way of physical evidence anyway. But it's nice that I can use it without sounding like I'm placing impossible demands on you.

.
You say all of this as if it was somehow news that the chain of custody is an important part of assessing physical evidence.

But then, it was apparently also news to you that physical evidence all by itself without testimony of some sort stating the kinds of things I referred to in my post to Maro is evidence of nothing at all.
.

Oh, yeah, I liked your Abe Foxman insult.

.
And what insult was that? I have said nothing at all in that post or elsewhere about your posts which cannot be documented by referring to the posts themselves. If you find your own words insulting, that is hardly my problem.
.

 

[Nick Terry]

Not so veiled threats aside, you seem to stuck on this idea that the Nazis got the Jews to participate in their own destruction by holding a gun to their head.

I don't know if you're speaking literally or figuratively here. If you're speaking literally, you got six million Jews. That means six million guns held to six million heads for as long as those heads are attached to a living body. So you need six million Germans to hold the six million guns to six million Jewish heads. That's alot of men and alot of guns to be tied up while a war was going on--yet another human resources management problem that arises when you're talking about the holocaust.

Now, if you're talking about motivating Jews by holding guns to their heads figuratively, what do you literally mean?

Since when was it claimed that 6 million Jews had to serve as Sonderkommandos, Dogzilla? Your ability to follow a conversation appears to be as shockingly poor as all your other cognitive abilities.

 

[Corsair 115]

Because it promotes the hatred of Germans.

If that is supposedly the goal, then it has done a rather poor job of it. Unless you can point to evidence showing that, for example, Germany is being treated as a pariah state that no other nation will anything to do with, or that German tourists face discrimination when travelling outside their country, etc.

 

[Nick Terry]

There's really nothing be said to somebody who says the holocaust isn't held to a different standard by explaining why it's held to a different standard.

Actually there is surely a great deal to be said on the subject, irrespective of whether one person says A and another says B. That's generally how discussions work.

Your claim, reiterated numerous times in this thread and restated repeatedly in the last week or two, is that the Holocaust is supposedly held to a different standard of evidence to other historical events.

Since you've made this claim, we've had your Exodus example, and now the alien autopsy video, and a repeated refusal to discuss any actual historical examples which might be thought of as comparable.

Instead of showing how historians of the Holocaust differ from historians of Stalinism, the Armenian genocide or the Pol Pot regime, you have picked Michael Shermer as your main source. The contradictions you claim in Shermer's positions on different issues mostly seem to exist in your head, and even if you could prove one (which so far you have failed to do), then how does this help you?

The real test is whether someone like Raul Hilberg has entirely different standards of evidence to Robert Conquest, if Christian Gerlach has different standards to Ben Kiernan writing on Cambodia, or if Taner Akcam uses a different methodology to Dieter Pohl when Akcam is writing about the Armenian genocide and Pohl writing about the Holocaust in Poland. Unfortunately you don't seem to have read any of these guys, which obviously makes it very hard for you to make what ought to be incredibly simple comparisons.

You have loudly declared your disinterest in the histories of other mass murders in recent history, even though they are the obvious choices for comparison. You don't even try to play google historian and look up what is known about other mass murders. This has rather crippled your ability to prove that the Holocaust is held to a different standard, since you refuse to discuss things that are the closest possible comparisons.

Most probably, you do know just a little bit about these other mass murders and realise that they're not discussed according to the idealistic standard of evidence you want to impose on the Holocaust, and on the Holocaust alone. So you avoid discussing them, in a rather desperate attempt to cover up the increasingly obvious fact that it is you that has blatant double standards of evidence when it comes to the Holocaust.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://shamash.org/holocaust/denial/testimony.txt

Quote:
At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
had shown up.


More ritual BS.

The absurdity is incredible.

 

[LemmyCaution]

That is a very tall claim. Care to provide any, y'know, evidence for it?

Jews drove the trains? Loaded the guns used by the guards?

Are you seriously comparing the position of the Trawnikis, who were all given a choice about serving, and who if serving in the Reinhard camps spent all their spare time *********** prostitutes and drinking themselves silly in neighbouring villages to which they had walked like any other soldier off-duty going out on the razz, with the position of the Sonderkommandos?

Please present the prosecution case against the Judenraete and Sonderkommandos, to at least the same standard of evidence as you demand from others when they accuse the Nazis of being guilty of murder.

Please identify the Sonderkommando or Judenrat member called "Bube" or "Zeidy", or stfu, as it's patently obvious you don't know what the **** you are talking about.

Thank you, Nick, for replying to this truly astonishing post before I had the misfortune to read it and reply.

Jews, of course, "assisted" in some phases of the destruction process because they were forced to do so and only for that reason. Almost every one of these "helpers" did so under threat of death or violence; a very few highly dubious characters served as informers or otherwise volunteered their services, but even as controversial a person as Gens cannot neatly be shown to have "volunteered," not in any meaningful sense of the word. These people were put into no-win situations -- some of them calculated to do what most people in similar situations would do, that is, go along to survive, trying to outlast their captors; some, looking at the larger picture, tried to work out strategies, based on their limited knowledge of Nazi intentions and methods and on their almost non-existent power, to save many Jewish lives or whole Jewish communities. Other Jews resisted -- and, returning to Gens, some Jewish leaders tried to accede to Nazi demands in order to save lives, outwardly cooperating, whilst secretly working with and supporting resistors. Many Jews tried to escape, neither cooperating nor directly resisting. They relied on the assistance of their neighbors or even strangers.

Unsurprisingly, Jews responded to Nazi rule and the Nazi destruction process in a variety of ways. It is this variegated reality which the deniers on this thread try caricaturing and mocking. To anyone who's read even a small amount of material on ghettos and camps, deportations and open air shootings, the extent to which this denier canard is both a strawman and a taunt is clear.

 

[Cyrix686]

Clayton, haven't you read any of this yet? It really is Day One stuff. Ask Seven-Up if he is not too stingy to let you have a loan of his copy of the, "Good Old Days."

 

[Saggy]

On Nick Terry's scale, Saggy managed to reach a whopping 0.5%, mentioning one name and asserting that he lied while disregarding the credible testimony of hundreds of other named, and tens of thousands of other unnamed witnesses.

Nonsense, I didn't pick just any pathological liar, the pathological liar I picked is the name most associated with the holohoax, the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, and the first director of the USHMM hoax museum.

Further, there is no credible evidence to disregard. That is why pathological liars like Wiesel are the embodiment of the hoax. If there is a singe credible Jewish eyewitness, name him/her !

 

[LemmyCaution]

Not so veiled threats aside, you seem to stuck on this idea that the Nazis got the Jews to participate in their own destruction by holding a gun to their head.

I don't know if you're speaking literally or figuratively here. If you're speaking literally, you got six million Jews. That means six million guns held to six million heads for as long as those heads are attached to a living body. So you need six million Germans to hold the six million guns to six million Jewish heads. That's alot of men and alot of guns to be tied up while a war was going on--yet another human resources management problem that arises when you're talking about the holocaust.

Now, if you're talking about motivating Jews by holding guns to their heads figuratively, what do you literally mean?

This is a strange and very poorly thought-out post. At most a few 1000 men served in the Sonderkommando. IIRC the largest size the SK ever reached at Birkenau was 400 and something. It isn't exactly clear how many times the squad "turned over"; the SK's at the AR camps were smaller.

As for Jews dragooned into other parts of the Nazi administration of terror, such as Jewish police in ghettos or workers at Kanada in Birkenau, the gold Jews and sorters and crafts-workers at Treblinka, and so on, these captive Jews mostly toiled to survive, under threat of violent punishment, deportation, or death. The number of Jews who voluntarily cooperated with the Nazis is minuscule. Almost all Jews working "for the Nazis," from those in the SK's to those in ghetto workshops, were under some form of compulsion.

Do our deniers know for sure what they would do under similar, terrorized conditions? I doubt it, just as I doubt that most people know such a thing. But it is probable that most people in this circumstance will try to survive, even if it means doing what repels them--and working for the Nazis surely, judging from the writings Jews left behind, repelled most European Jews.

 

[Cyrix686]

Saggy, deal with 200 eyewitnesses, otherwise go back to codoh and talk your half-baked wiesel diesel boring nonsense over there. And don't even think of stalking Elie, look what happened to Hunt.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nonsense, I didn't pick just any pathological liar, the pathological liar I picked is the name most associated with the holohoax, the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, and the first director of the USHMM hoax museum.

Further, there is no credible evidence to disregard. That is why pathological liars like Wiesel are the embodiment of the hoax. If there is a singe credible Jewish eyewitness, name him/her !

Oscar Strawczynski -perhaps you know his stuff even if Clayton is just learning about him. Yudis Trojak. Pesye Schloss. Pick one.

 

[uke2se]

Nonsense, I didn't pick just any pathological liar, the pathological liar I picked is the name most associated with the holohoax, the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, and the first director of the USHMM hoax museum.

Nevertheless, Saggy picked just a single person out of over 200 named ones, and out of tens of thousands of unnamed ones, making my statement quite demonstrably not "nonsense".

Saggy also failed miserably - yet again - to demonstrate his repeated assertion that the single person - out of tens of thousands - that he picked (the very essence of cherry picking) was lying in any way shape or form.

Further, there is no credible evidence to disregard.

On the contrary, as Saggy has been shown numerous times on this thread, there are mountains of evidence. The reason Saggy doesn't think the veritable treasure trove of evidence is "credible" is because he can't without destroying his delusion.

That is why pathological liars like Wiesel are the embodiment of the hoax.

Once again, Saggy wildly asserts something with no evidence whatsoever. It is as if, to him, simple assertion is the same as evidence. Of course, every single person who has as little as a high school education would know that assertion isn't the same as evidece. That Saggy apparently lacks this knowledge speaks to his own lack of education, alternatively his complete lack of rationality.

If there is a singe credible Jewish eyewitness, name him/her !

As Saggy well knows, over 200 have been named, and there are tens of thousands of others to chose from. His outright denial of what is clearly stated in this very thread is getting ridiculous, but then, so is holocaust denial.

 

[Pacal]

Dogzilla
Because it promotes the hatred of Germans. That's kind of a no-brainer.

Only if you conflate Germans with Nazis.

I've been to the Nitzor site and your hallucinating or just spouting nonsense.