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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Mondial said:
On the one hand the holocaust propaganda says that after world war 2 there was hardly a Jew left alive in Europe due to a genocide and yet Jewish demographer Sergio Dellapergola issued a report in 2003 stating that there were 1 092 000 holocaust survivors in the world. www.icheic.org/pdf/ICHEIC_demography1.pdf You can't have it both ways. 1 092 000 survivors 58 years after the end of the war! How many survivors were there in 1945? 3 million? 4 million? 5 million? I repeat you can't have it both ways. The claim that the nazis tried to kill every single Jew they could get their hands on is blatantly false. www.holocaustdenialvideos.com www.codoh.com
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Leaving aside the pejorative "holocaust propaganda," I know of no account of the genocide which the Nazis carried out against European Jews that argues "there was hardly a Jew left alive in Europe" at the end of the war. Most sources estimate that about 9 million Jews lived in Europe during the 1930s--and that 3+ million were living in Europe in 1945. That is a bit more than 1/3 of the prewar Jewish population survived--which is very different to "hardly a Jew left" in Europe. The countries with the highest death rate--about 90%--were Poland, the Baltic countries, and Germany/Austria.

A reasonable question is why this member, Mondial, feels the need to distort what is said about the Holocaust.
 
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Originally Posted by Mondial
On the one hand the holocaust propaganda says that after world war 2 there was hardly a Jew left alive in Europe due to a genocide and yet Jewish demographer Sergio Dellapergola issued a report in 2003 stating that there were 1 092 000 holocaust survivors in the world. www.icheic.org/pdf/ICHEIC_demography1.pdf You can't have it both ways. 1 092 000 survivors 58 years after the end of the war! How many survivors were there in 1945? 3 million? 4 million? 5 million? I repeat you can't have it both ways. The claim that the nazis tried to kill every single Jew they could get their hands on is blatantly false. www.holocaustdenialvideos.com www.codoh.com
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LemmyCaution said:
Leaving aside the pejorative "holocaust propaganda," I know of no account of the genocide which the Nazis carried out against European Jews that argues "there was hardly a Jew left alive in Europe" at the end of the war. Most sources estimate that about 9 million Jews lived in Europe during the 1930s--and that 3+ million were living in Europe in 1945. That is a bit more than 1/3 of the prewar Jewish population survived--which is very different to "hardly a Jew left" in Europe. The countries with the highest death rate--about 90%--were Poland, the Baltic countries, and Germany/Austria.

A reasonable question is why this member, Mondial, feels the need to distort what is said about the Holocaust.
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The above should make any sensible person wonder what a backward projection of the 1,092,000 survivors figure would make the total number of survivors in 1945.

and.


9,000,000 minus 6,000,000 equal 3,000,000.

That would mean no Jewish people left Europe in the 30s and 40s.
Really?
 
Clayton Moore said:
The above should make any sensible person wonder what a backward projection of the 1,092,000 survivors figure would make the total number of survivors in 1945.

and.


9,000,000 minus 6,000,000 equal 3,000,000.

That would mean no Jewish people left Europe in the 30s and 40s.
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Mommy obviously has not had The Talk with you, but I think it's time.

You see, when a mommy and a daddy love each other very much (yes, even Jewish mommies and daddies) they are together in a special way in private. Then nine months later, there is a brand new baby to light up their lives. We big kids call this 'procreation' and it's the reason why there are lots and lots of people even after lots of them get killed by your heroes.

People feel especially protective about brand new babies and hide some from bad people like the ones to which you look up. So those brand new babies survive despite the bad people trying to kill them because they lie to themselves that these brand new babies are anti-social and so must be murdered. This is why we call those brand new babies "survivors".
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Clayton Moore said:
Really?
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Yes, well, I've left out some of the details about the special way, but that is pretty much how it works.
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Wroclaw said:
Wow. Project much?

The guy was the number two in the Reich for a significant chunk of his career in government. It's extremely unlikely that something on the scale of the Holocaust could be going on and he wouldn't know.

Which is not to say that he was telling the truth at Nuremberg. Rather, he was lying to take responsibility off himself, but in the face of the evidence that the Jews had been exterminated, he couldn't possibly deny that it had happened at all. So he didn't.

Is that too complex for you to understand?
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OK, I'll pretend you're right and that Goering could have denied the state sponsored policy of exterminating the Jews through starvation, shooting, gas chambers, and other methods in which five to six million Jews were actually murdered but didn't.

Let's pretend he did. If he had issued a blanket denial, what would it look like? What would Goering have to have said for you to agree that he at least attempted to, not merely feign unawareness, but to say it simply didn't happen?
 
Dogzilla said:
OK, I'll pretend you're right and that Goering could have denied the state sponsored policy of exterminating the Jews through starvation, shooting, gas chambers, and other methods in which five to six million Jews were actually murdered but didn't.

Let's pretend he did. If he had issued a blanket denial, what would it look like? What would Goering have to have said for you to agree that he at least attempted to, not merely feign unawareness, but to say it simply didn't happen?
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That's easy.

Goering would have had to have explained where the deported Jews had been settled, something he would have known as he was responsible throughout the war for the supervision of agriculture and the food supply, and was convening major conferences on the subject.

On August 6, 1942, Goering held a conference on increasing requisitioning from the occupied territories, as was known to the Nuremberg tribunal since the protocol was entered into evidence against Goering (as USSR-170).

It is perfectly obvious that any mass resettlement/deportation would have seriously impacted on the food supply of the regions to which the supposedly non-exterminated Jews were sent, and therefore that Goering would have known about the rapid dumping of 1.5 million Jews in this region or regions in 1942, just counting deportees, since even on short rations, that many people are going to make a severe dent in food stocks. The Four Year Plan would have been ultimately involved in deciding on how much food to dole out, therefore Goering would have known.

Why don't you take the Generalbezirk challenge, Dogzilla. It's fairly simple. You just have to divide 1.5 million Jews across the following districts of the occupied Soviet Union:

Generalbezirk Estland
Generalbezirk Lettland
Generalbezirk Litauen
Generalbezirk Weissruthenien
Generalbezirk Wolhynien
Generalbezirk Shitomir
Generalbezirk Nikolajew
Generalbezirk Kiew
Generalbezirk Dnjepropetrowsk
Generalbezirk Krim-Taurien

arriving by the end of 1942, and explain why you think that the division is probable. You can put all 1.5 million into one district or you can divide them across the 10 districts, however many you want. You cannot count Jews who were actually deported to these areas, like the Jews deported to Minsk and Riga in 1941-early 1942, and have to add those to the totals.

If you cannot answer the Generalbezirk Challenge with even a guess, then that's why Goering would have been unable to deny extermination, since he'd have known where they went - all to the Ostland or all to the Ukraine or to both districts.
 
Kevin.Silbstedt said:
Another denier, who doesn't get it, so I make the important sentence bold:


Get it? Even through these things are not proving, that the mass murdering happend there, they are all in the testimonies of the eyewitnesses. It shows, that the eyewitnesses, especially Wiernik, are credible witnesses even when it comes to the details, which is pretty rare. And yes, these eyewitnesses on the other hand prove the happening of the mass murdering at Treblinka. But you don't get it and you never will.

And this kind of evidence didn't push you into holocaust denial, that was nuttery or anti-semitism or fascism or all together on your part. But please explain to us, what the hell happend in this building, why these massive excavaters dig holes in the ground there everywhere AND present evidence for this explanation.
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Perhaps an analogy will help you understand the problem with the "evidence" that you are so convinced is proof of extermination. I'm a war crimes investigator and I want to prove you have been operating a gas chamber at your home to kill the Jews. I have the blueprints of your home clearly showing a room labeled the "garage"--which we all know is a euphemism for the gas chamber.

I have an eyewitness--the kid who mowed the lawn across the street from your house--who once saw "the corpse door" of your gas chamber wide open. He claimed to have seen a bench against the wall directly across from the "corpse door." Hanging on the wall adjacent to the bench were saws, hammers, pliers, and other devices that could be used as implements of torture. Under the bench were jars and boxes with labels that said 'fungicide' or 'snail bait.' Right next to this bench was a door that opened into another room. This witness never saw what lay beyond that door.

I have another witness--a person completely unknown to the kid who mowed the lawn. This witness saw your gas chamber from the outside but because your gas chamber is cleverly disguised as a garage, the witness didn't recognize it as such. This witness does recall seeing a single dormer on the roof which faced north.

I have a third witness who has a satellite image of your house lifted from google maps. The satellite imagery clearly shows the shadows cast by what appears to be a dormer on the roof of your gas chamber.

My fourth witness is a contractor who installed copper plumbing in your house--replacement pipes which were forged from the copper fillings extracted from the mouths of your hapless victims no doubt. This contractor recalls opening a door from the interior of the house into a gigantic room--a room big enough to store two automobiles and various other household items. This room was dark and drafty and had a faint odor sort of like oily rags, gasoline, or maybe rubber. When the contractor switched on a light, he saw a huge rolling door directly in front of him and immediately to his left was a wooden bench with tools hanging on the wall.

My first and fourth witness have described essentially the same room but from different angles. My second witness' description of the exterior doesn't contradict either my first or my fourth witness. My third witness with his photographic proof is entirely consistent with the testimony of the other three witnesses. Everything each witness described aligns perfectly with everything every other witness described. Nothing any one of them said contradicts anything another one said. Their descriptions match perfectly the blueprints of your home that we discovered hidden in a file cabinet at the city building permit office.

So are you going to still sit here and deny killing Jews in your gas chamber?
 
Wroclaw said:
That's helpful. Somebody proves you wrong and you blindly ignore them. Good.
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I have to agree with Wroclaw here. Somebody provides a source and you respond with "I've ripped out that page of double talk and flushed it. Now what?"

You're not helping your credibility here one bit. What's worse is you're making me agree with Wroclaw. I hate it when I agree with Wroclaw and I don't think he likes it much either. Knock it off!
 
Dogzilla said:
Perhaps an analogy will help you understand the problem with the "evidence" that you are so convinced is proof of extermination.
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False Analogy coming in 3, 2, 1:

Dogzilla said:
I'm a war crimes investigator and I want to prove you have been operating a gas chamber at your home to kill the Jews. I have the blueprints of your home clearly showing a room labeled the "garage"--which we all know is a euphemism for the gas chamber.
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Sorry, but nowhere in your idiotic analogy can you find evidence for the use of this euphemism. You do know, that the nazis themselves admitted, what these code words like "Sonderbehandlung" meant? And you do know, that documents told us what these codewords meant? (For example, that the Leichenkeller at Auschwitz were sometimes called "Auskleidekeller", "Auskleideraum" or most famously "Vergasungskeller" or "Gaskeller", which was their true purpose) So this is the first clue, that your analogy is just load of crap.

I won't comment on each of your "eyewitnesses", but to make it short:

Dogzilla said:
My first and fourth witness have described essentially the same room but from different angles. My second witness' description of the exterior doesn't contradict either my first or my fourth witness. My third witness with his photographic proof is entirely consistent with the testimony of the other three witnesses. Everything each witness described aligns perfectly with everything every other witness described. Nothing any one of them said contradicts anything another one said. Their descriptions match perfectly the blueprints of your home that we discovered hidden in a file cabinet at the city building permit office.

So are you going to still sit here and deny killing Jews in your gas chamber?
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Don't you think, that you have forgotten something? Like for example, the claim, that my garage is a gas chamber made by even one of the eyewitnesses? Who the hell claims that? There is also no reason in your analogy, why anyone would have thought my garage is a gas chamber (gas chamber exclusive equipment, actual seeing/hearing of a gassing action or the corpses ...).

Who claims that in your story? If no one claims that, than there is no evidence.

But I got news for you: multiple witnesses and even the nazis themselves claim, that the little nice house in the picture I posted, has three gas chambers, at least one room with a heavy tank motor, that the gas chambers have shower heads, a vent, that went through the roof to let the gas out after their operation, white tiles on the walls to a certain height, a terra cotta floor, an iron door with a peep hole on the one side and a huge garage door out of strong wood on the other side, where also a ramp was and so on and on.

And the photo even matches these descriptions miraculously in certain parts like the style of the roof, the gas chambers being out of concrete and the rest of the bulding being out of wood, a vent seems to be visible on the roof and of course there seems to be a ramp beginning on the left.

But hey, now you come along with a moronic analogy, that doesn't even come close to this and tell me, that since in your analogy it's not rational to believe my garage is a gas chamber, we shouldn't believe the accounts of the witnesses concerning the old gas chamber at Treblinka and ignore the consistent picture of this building given by their testimony and the photo. And the best of all: You don't even have a shred of evidence what else should have been going on in this building. To quote the postal dude: "You got to be *********** kidding!"

How about stop using false analogies, strawman arguments, cherry picking, appeal to ridicule, arguments from ignorance, argument from incredulity and all the other crap, which is typical for nutjobs and start presenting actual evidence like testimonies, documents, photos or anything for your case? Oh yeah, that's right, you deniers have nothing, so you have to distort the truth with these fallacies. :rolleyes:
 
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Nick Terry said:
That's easy.

Goering would have had to have explained where the deported Jews had been settled, something he would have known as he was responsible throughout the war for the supervision of agriculture and the food supply, and was convening major conferences on the subject.

On August 6, 1942, Goering held a conference on increasing requisitioning from the occupied territories, as was known to the Nuremberg tribunal since the protocol was entered into evidence against Goering (as USSR-170).

It is perfectly obvious that any mass resettlement/deportation would have seriously impacted on the food supply of the regions to which the supposedly non-exterminated Jews were sent, and therefore that Goering would have known about the rapid dumping of 1.5 million Jews in this region or regions in 1942, just counting deportees, since even on short rations, that many people are going to make a severe dent in food stocks. The Four Year Plan would have been ultimately involved in deciding on how much food to dole out, therefore Goering would have known.

Why don't you take the Generalbezirk challenge, Dogzilla. It's fairly simple. You just have to divide 1.5 million Jews across the following districts of the occupied Soviet Union:

Generalbezirk Estland
Generalbezirk Lettland
Generalbezirk Litauen
Generalbezirk Weissruthenien
Generalbezirk Wolhynien
Generalbezirk Shitomir
Generalbezirk Nikolajew
Generalbezirk Kiew
Generalbezirk Dnjepropetrowsk
Generalbezirk Krim-Taurien

arriving by the end of 1942, and explain why you think that the division is probable. You can put all 1.5 million into one district or you can divide them across the 10 districts, however many you want. You cannot count Jews who were actually deported to these areas, like the Jews deported to Minsk and Riga in 1941-early 1942, and have to add those to the totals.

If you cannot answer the Generalbezirk Challenge with even a guess, then that's why Goering would have been unable to deny extermination, since he'd have known where they went - all to the Ostland or all to the Ukraine or to both districts.
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If Goering had tried to explain where 1.5 million Jews had been sent by the end of 1942, that would be what you would call an unambiguous blanket denial that between five and six million Jews had been murdered by various methods--including gas chambers--in Nazi Germany's plan to exterminate all the Jews which they called the Final Solution to the Jewish Question?

You're basing your argument on the where are the missing Jews gambit. It's a logical fallacy based on the excluded middle--that Jews in Europe either 1) survived the war or 2) were intentionally murdered through a variety of methods including gas chambers by the Nazis as part of the plan to exterminate all the Jews.

The challenge is silly and meaningless but I'll try anyway. I think they were all sent to district number seven because that's the only one that has 'jew' in it's name.
 
Kevin.Silbstedt said:
False Analogy coming in 3, 2, 1:



Sorry, but nowhere in your idiotic analogy can you find evidence for the use of this euphemism. You do know, that the nazis themselves admitted, what these code words like "Sonderbehandlung" meant? And you do know, that documents told us what these codewords meant? (For example, that the Leichenkeller at Auschwitz were sometimes called "Auskleidekeller", "Auskleideraum" or most famously "Vergasungskeller" or "Gaskeller", which was their true purpose) So this is the first clue, that your analogy is just load of crap.

I won't comment on each of your "eyewitnesses", but to make it short:



Don't you think, that you have forgotten something? Like for example, the claim, that my garage is a gas chamber made by even one of the eyewitnesses? Who the hell claims that? There is also no reason in your analogy, why anyone would have thought my garage is a gas chamber (gas chamber exclusive equipment, actual seeing/hearing of a gassing action or the corpses ...).

Who claims that in your story? If no one claims that, than there is no evidence.

But I got news for you: multiple witnesses and even the nazis themselves claim, that the little nice house in the picture I posted, has three gas chambers, at least one room with a heavy tank motor, that the gas chambers have shower heads, a vent, that went through the roof to let the gas out after their operation, white tiles on the walls to a certain height, a terra cotta floor, an iron door with a peep hole on the one side and a huge garage door out of strong wood on the other side, where also a ramp was and so on and on.

And the photo even matches these descriptions miraculously in certain parts like the style of the roof, the gas chambers being out of concrete and the rest of the bulding being out of wood, a vent seems to be visible on the roof and of course there seems to be a ramp beginning on the left.

But hey, now you come along with a moronic analogy, that doesn't even come close to this and tell me, that since in your analogy it's not rational to believe my garage is a gas chamber, we shouldn't believe the accounts of the witnesses concerning the old gas chamber at Treblinka and ignore the consistent picture of this building given by their testimony and the photo. And the best of all: You don't even have a shred of evidence what else should have been going on in this building. To quote the postal dude: "You got to be *********** kidding!"

How about stop using false analogies, strawman arguments, cherry picking, appeal to ridicule, arguments from ignorance, argument from incredulity and all the other crap, which is typical for nutjobs and start presenting actual evidence like testimonies, documents, photos or anything for your case? Oh yeah, that's right, you deniers have nothing, so you have to distort the truth with these fallacies. :rolleyes:
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Sorry. I should have been clearer. Witness number 1, 3, and 4 did tell our investigators about your gas chamber and identified it as such. Witness 2 didn't know it was a gas chamber but that only increases that witness' credibility because that witness did accurately describe the gas chamber. We know about the euphemistic language because your son told us. Initially he lied out of loyalty to you but after we beat him senseless, threatened to rape his sister and mother, and denied him food for two weeks he was overcome with guilt and wanted to unburden his conscience. He says you frequently referred to the gas chamber as the "garage."
 
Dogzilla said:
OK, I'll pretend you're right and that Goering could have denied the state sponsored policy of exterminating the Jews through starvation, shooting, gas chambers, and other methods in which five to six million Jews were actually murdered but didn't.

Let's pretend he did. If he had issued a blanket denial, what would it look like? What would Goering have to have said for you to agree that he at least attempted to, not merely feign unawareness, but to say it simply didn't happen?
Click to expand...

I'd have expected something along the lines of, "Of course, we didn't kill millions of Jews. The Jews made it up to throw guilt on us. You know how those people are."
 
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Dogzilla said:
I have to agree with Wroclaw here. Somebody provides a source and you respond with "I've ripped out that page of double talk and flushed it. Now what?"

You're not helping your credibility here one bit. What's worse is you're making me agree with Wroclaw. I hate it when I agree with Wroclaw and I don't think he likes it much either. Knock it off!
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Yeah right. "Some person" provides page 584a as some sort of evidence and it's supposed to mean something. You freaking knock it of.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Yeah right. "Some person" provides page 584a as some sort of evidence and it's supposed to mean something. You freaking knock it of.
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Dogzilla sets out his arguments and counter arguments. This allows discussion. People reading this thread know what he is saying. They may not agree, but points are made, facts are presented and discussion continues. That is the point of this thread.

When you are presented with evidence you "rip pages out of books", say "crapola" and base your views on your guess work. You become a cartoon character of a "holocaust denier" for our amusement. You can't complain about Jewish media "manipulation" conspiracies when you yourself discard real evidence being presented against your claims. It makes you look a "bit slow" and hypocritical. If you want the holocaust denial movement to get a fair hearing you should simply stop posting and let more mature advocates do the arguing.
 
Wroclaw said:
I'd have expected something along the lines of, "Of course, we didn't kill millions of Jews. The Jews made it up to throw guilt on us. You know how those people are."
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Because he didn't specifically deny killing millions of Jews, he didn't deny the holocaust? He didn't deny killing millions of Laotians. He didn't deny using steam chambers to kill anybody. He didn't deny persecuting pedophiles. He didn't deny any of those things because he wasn't accused of doing any of those things. He wasn't accused of killing millions of Jews either. Why would he deny doing something he wasn't accused of doing?

Try again.
 
Dogzilla said:
I have to agree with Wroclaw here. Somebody provides a source and you respond with "I've ripped out that page of double talk and flushed it. Now what?"

You're not helping your credibility here one bit. What's worse is you're making me agree with Wroclaw. I hate it when I agree with Wroclaw and I don't think he likes it much either. Knock it off!
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A poster notes a single page of vague inference of the mechanics of a German genocide against the Jewish people of Europe out of 10s of thousands pages, maybe even 100s of thousands of pages written by the three key players of the allied powers. I dismiss it as nonsense and you tell me to knock it off.

Maybe you've forgotten that the key to propagating the Holocaust myth is to throw crap after crap after crap into history as if it is the absolute truth.

The guy puts up one page of nonsense and I'm supposed to treat it like it like meaningful information/debate.

You need to WTFU.
 
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