Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Dogzilla]

Dogzilla, I suggest instead of making more comments about SoT's posts based on your ignorance of the topic, you go back and read Clayton Moore's posts laying out his "logistical" objections to the Holocaust, to which SoT is responding. To my reading of SoT, he is answering that part of Clayton Moore's argument which states that the killing could not have occurred because the logistics of transportation, manpower, and camp organization, during wartime, made it impossible to concentrate the Jews (for murder or any other purpose). You are conducting a different discussion with yourself, about the extermination program itself.

I do remember an earlier argument that went something like the holocaust was impossible because of the difficulty in moving so many people to the death camps. I didn't follow it too closely because I know that transportation wasn't the problem. I also know that that probably wasn't the argument but it devolved into that because of an intentional misunderstanding of the actual point by somebody on the holocaust team.

If it was Clayton Moore who said earlier in the thread that transportation was the big problem, so be it. That was then and this is now. What CM said more recently that is currently under discussion was "Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?"

THAT is the question that SofT responded to with Rincewind's musings about Barbarossa. Rincewind's musing might have been relevant if we were talking about moving people from point A to point B. But we're not talking about deportation. We're talking about gassing and cremating people in secret.

SofT's response would have been completely irrelevant but for the fact that the holocaust team has a habit of attempting to conflate evidence of deportation and (the lack of) evidence for extermination to make it look like there is actually evidence of extermination.

 

[Dogzilla]

I offer the same challenge to you as I did Clayton: please explain why this move to prove the Holocaust never happened isn't being spearheaded by Germans themselves seeing as they are the ones most affected by it and they are the ones closest to the surviving original records and documentation of the Nazi regime.

Thus far Clayton has avoided giving anything resembling a coherent answer. Perhaps you'll give it a try?

No I won't because the answer is obvious. Start with unconditional surrender and track the evolution of German society from that point forward.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I do remember an earlier argument that went something like the holocaust was impossible because of the difficulty in moving so many people to the death camps. I didn't follow it too closely because I know that transportation wasn't the problem. I also know that that probably wasn't the argument but it devolved into that because of an intentional misunderstanding of the actual point by somebody on the holocaust team.

If it was Clayton Moore who said earlier in the thread that transportation was the big problem, so be it. That was then and this is now. What CM said more recently that is currently under discussion was "Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?"

THAT is the question that SofT responded to with Rincewind's musings about Barbarossa. Rincewind's musing might have been relevant if we were talking about moving people from point A to point B. But we're not talking about deportation. We're talking about gassing and cremating people in secret.

SofT's response would have been completely irrelevant but for the fact that the holocaust team has a habit of attempting to conflate evidence of deportation and (the lack of) evidence for extermination to make it look like there is actually evidence of extermination.

The main problem with Rincewind's amusing attempt at comparison was that staging and many other managing concerns were not concerns for military operations.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I offer the same challenge to you as I did Clayton: please explain why this move to prove the Holocaust never happened isn't being spearheaded by Germans themselves seeing as they are the ones most affected by it and they are the ones closest to the surviving original records and documentation of the Nazi regime.

Thus far Clayton has avoided giving anything resembling a coherent answer. Perhaps you'll give it a try?

Again, you agree, that without the gas chambers and the alleged attempt of genocide against the Jewish people of Europe, there was no Holocaust.

The end/post war rampage against the German people was a nightmare that dwarfed even the myth of the Holocaust. The haunting of that nightmare lingers.

 

[uke2se]

No I won't because the answer is obvious. Start with unconditional surrender and track the evolution of German society from that point forward.

It might be obvious to you, but it isn't to me. Please answer the question. If you do not, it will be clear that you're simply dodging.

 

[uke2se]

Again, you agree, that without the gas chambers and the alleged attempt of genocide against the Jewish people of Europe, there was no Holocaust.

Well, d'uh. That's the holocaust, so without it, no holocaust. The problem for you is that the things you deny actually happened.

The end/post war rampage against the German people was a nightmare that dwarfed even the myth of the Holocaust. The haunting of that nightmare lingers.

Tell us more about this rampage. How many were killed?

 

[uke2se]

I do remember an earlier argument that went something like the holocaust was impossible because of the difficulty in moving so many people to the death camps. I didn't follow it too closely because I know that transportation wasn't the problem. I also know that that probably wasn't the argument but it devolved into that because of an intentional misunderstanding of the actual point by somebody on the holocaust team.

If it was Clayton Moore who said earlier in the thread that transportation was the big problem, so be it. That was then and this is now. What CM said more recently that is currently under discussion was "Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?"

THAT is the question that SofT responded to with Rincewind's musings about Barbarossa. Rincewind's musing might have been relevant if we were talking about moving people from point A to point B. But we're not talking about deportation. We're talking about gassing and cremating people in secret.

SofT's response would have been completely irrelevant but for the fact that the holocaust team has a habit of attempting to conflate evidence of deportation and (the lack of) evidence for extermination to make it look like there is actually evidence of extermination.

That question has also been answered. See the Rwanda genocide for details.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Because of the nature of "human ash" and the lack of any forensic report commensurate with such a finding, I question the validity of said ash field.

During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). Judge
Lukaszkiewicz." So you "deny" Polish scientists also? Amazing! What a strange cult.

Of course the wagons went back to Warsaw empty! Why would you take a trainload of Jews back to the ghetto after they had been deloused?

You didn't read the link did you? Silly boy.

All of this information is taken from records which I made and from which I created copies at the end of the war, copies which I still have to this day.....On 22 August, and on 2, 9, 13, and 21 September, wagons with the clothes of the murdered people were sent from the camp.
So if what do you think the people at Treblinka were wearing after the trains left with their clothes? You don't "research" at all do you?

Nuremberg Document NO-1257
A report Pohl made to Himmler on 6 February 1943 containing a detailed list of clothing seized (Treblinka).
[...]2. Office for Germanization [VoMi]
Men's clothing:
overcoats - 99,000
jackets - 57,000
vests - 27,000
pants - 62,000
drawers - 38,000
shirts - 132,000
pullovers - 9,000
scarves - 2,000
pajamas - 6,000
collars - 10,000
gloves - 2,000 pairs
socks - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 31,000 pairs

Women's clothing:
coats - 155,000 pieces
dresses - 119,000 pieces
blouses - 30,000 pieces
pullovers - 60,000 pieces
drawers - 49,000 pieces
panties - 60,000 pieces
jackets - 26,000 pieces
shirts - 30,000 pieces
chemises - 125,000 pieces
pajamas - 27,000 pieces
aprons - 36,000 pieces
brassieres - 25,000 pieces
underwear - 22,000 pieces
kerchiefs - 85,000 pieces
shoes - 111,000 pieces

Children's clothing:
overcoats - 15,000
boys' jackets - 11,000
boys' pants - 3,000
shirts - 3,000
scarves - 4,000
pullovers - 1,000
drawers - 1,000
girls' dresses - 9,000
girls' chemises - 5,000
aprons - 2,000
drawers - 5,000
stockings - 10,000 pairs
shoes - 22,000 pairs

 

[little grey rabbit]

so if i understand you correctly. Some 2 million Jews were processed by Aktion Reinhardt stations in Lublin, Auschwitz, Warthegau, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

And they collected 31000 male adult shoes. I can see I will need to work on my Holomaths skills. I had already mastered the Auschwitz sum : 6 million - 3 million = 6 million. But this is an whole new order of mathematical complexity.

 

[uke2se]

so if i understand you correctly. Some 2 million Jews were processed by Aktion Reinhardt stations in Lublin, Auschwitz, Warthegau, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

And they collected 31000 male adult shoes. I can see I will need to work on my Holomaths skills. I had already mastered the Auschwitz sum : 6 million - 3 million = 6 million. But this is an whole new order of mathematical complexity.

The problem isn't your math. The problem is your reading comprehension.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I do remember an earlier argument that went something like the holocaust was impossible because of the difficulty in moving so many people to the death camps. I didn't follow it too closely because I know that transportation wasn't the problem. I also know that that probably wasn't the argument but it devolved into that because of an intentional misunderstanding of the actual point by somebody on the holocaust team.

If it was Clayton Moore who said earlier in the thread that transportation was the big problem, so be it. That was then and this is now. What CM said more recently that is currently under discussion was "Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?"

THAT is the question that SofT responded to with Rincewind's musings about Barbarossa. Rincewind's musing might have been relevant if we were talking about moving people from point A to point B. But we're not talking about deportation. We're talking about gassing and cremating people in secret.

SofT's response would have been completely irrelevant but for the fact that the holocaust team has a habit of attempting to conflate evidence of deportation and (the lack of) evidence for extermination to make it look like there is actually evidence of extermination.

Clayton Moore has argued logistical impossibility and has even denied the deportations. SoT quoted Rincewood to remind Clayton Moore of the ridiculous position his logistical argument put him in. Lately Clayton has been throwing in, without explication, something about military operations. He hasn't really summarized his argument, but the snippets have been as laughable as SoT suggests.

 

[Gwynpaine]

Elie Wiesel imposter?

But true to form you showed, you bared your colors by insisting the most gruesome lie imaginable was BAU/SOP.

Thus spake Clayton Moore on the twelfth

Perhaps Clayton Moore could tell me what these “true colors” are and why I should trouble to conceal them. I don’t know what Bau/ sop means.

I cannot blame anyone for ignoring a long and nuanced argument about the wretched Wiesel. Life is short enough. So I did not expect many people to read my piece. But I am astounded that anyone could read it thru and take my final remark literally. The discussion was about reasonable doubt. I was afraid I was coming too close to laboured sarcasm. Quoted in isolation, the remark might be taken as an endorsement. CM is such a strong patriot that he wants America to be an irony-free zone. Perhaps it already is

 

[Nick Terry]

I do remember an earlier argument that went something like the holocaust was impossible because of the difficulty in moving so many people to the death camps. I didn't follow it too closely because I know that transportation wasn't the problem. I also know that that probably wasn't the argument but it devolved into that because of an intentional misunderstanding of the actual point by somebody on the holocaust team.

If it was Clayton Moore who said earlier in the thread that transportation was the big problem, so be it. That was then and this is now. What CM said more recently that is currently under discussion was "Could almost 100,000 Jewish people a month be gassed and cremated in secret?"

THAT is the question that SofT responded to with Rincewind's musings about Barbarossa. Rincewind's musing might have been relevant if we were talking about moving people from point A to point B. But we're not talking about deportation. We're talking about gassing and cremating people in secret.

SofT's response would have been completely irrelevant but for the fact that the holocaust team has a habit of attempting to conflate evidence of deportation and (the lack of) evidence for extermination to make it look like there is actually evidence of extermination.

There is a very good reason why evidence for deportation is part of the evidence for extermination on a mass scale, namely the fact that very large numbers can be documented as deported to specific sites and there is no corresponding documentation or even any other form of evidence that they left (BCST) or good documentary and other evidence to indicate how may disappeared on arrival (Auschwitz). The evidence for mass extermination is simply not independent of the evidence for deportation to the mass extermination sites.

It's like the classic locked room mystery: we have evidence of people coming in and not coming out. One naturally wants to know why. The answer is provided by a variety of pieces of evidence. There's also the fact that multiple sites were involved, and they are daisychained together by a lot of evidence in common as well as evidence which links them directly.

Then there's the fact that the sites were being used as part of a wider policy which also involved other methods, like shooting, and also killed large numbers through starvation and maltreatment in other camps and ghettos.

And of course, the fact that the Nazis were demonstrably capable of killing millions of non-Jews, using a variety of methods including gassing, and demonstrably hated Jews more than any other group on the planet.

There are a series of credibility multipliers at work here on a very basic level, which affect how people evaluate the evidence from one of the death camps, because the death camps are not in the least bit independent of other aspects of the Holocaust or Nazi behaviour.


But tell you what, if you want to pick up Clayton Moore's gambit, let's discuss the chronology and logistics of the death camps/extermination sites and the evidence we have regarding those things. All of them. There are only eight to consider, it's a perfectly manageable sample.

 

[Nick Terry]

No I won't because the answer is obvious. Start with unconditional surrender and track the evolution of German society from that point forward.

So... you know absolutely nothing about post-1945 German history as well then?

 

[little grey rabbit]

But tell you what, if you want to pick up Clayton Moore's gambit, let's discuss the chronology and logistics of the death camps/extermination sites and the evidence we have regarding those things. All of them. There are only eight to consider, it's a perfectly manageable sample.

Hmmm only eight. If only there were some historians out there who could grow a pair of balls and if they really thought that a site wouldn't standard up to scrutiny would openly say so and not weasel out with this:

Archaeology is only necessary when there is a dearth of written sources, that is not the case for Treblinka, which contrary to LS's fondest imaginings, is not some obscure Roman potsherd site.

 

[Clayton Moore]

There is a very good reason why evidence for deportation is part of the evidence for extermination on a mass scale, namely the fact that very large numbers can be documented as deported to specific sites and there is no corresponding documentation or even any other form of evidence that they left (BCST) or good documentary and other evidence to indicate how may disappeared on arrival (Auschwitz). The evidence for mass extermination is simply not independent of the evidence for deportation to the mass extermination sites.

It's like the classic locked room mystery: we have evidence of people coming in and not coming out. One naturally wants to know why. The answer is provided by a variety of pieces of evidence. There's also the fact that multiple sites were involved, and they are daisychained together by a lot of evidence in common as well as evidence which links them directly.

Then there's the fact that the sites were being used as part of a wider policy which also involved other methods, like shooting, and also killed large numbers through starvation and maltreatment in other camps and ghettos.

And of course, the fact that the Nazis were demonstrably capable of killing millions of non-Jews, using a variety of methods including gassing, and demonstrably hated Jews more than any other group on the planet.

There are a series of credibility multipliers at work here on a very basic level, which affect how people evaluate the evidence from one of the death camps, because the death camps are not in the least bit independent of other aspects of the Holocaust or Nazi behaviour.


But tell you what, if you want to pick up Clayton Moore's gambit, let's discuss the chronology and logistics of the death camps/extermination sites and the evidence we have regarding those things. All of them. There are only eight to consider, it's a perfectly manageable sample.

After you're done you may explain why the camp populations didn't go completely berserk knowing 10s of thousands of their fellow Jews were being gassed/terminated every month.

Oh that's right millions were deported to the camps but none had a clue. Mums the word.

The gassing premise is a brain dead one. Didn't it follow the mass steaming and the mass electrocution premises?

Don't people crap and urinate when they die? I don't remember reading about this aspect of cleanup and while moving the bodies.

 

[Nick Terry]

Hmmm only eight. If only there were some historians out there who could grow a pair of balls and if they really thought that a site wouldn't standard up to scrutiny would openly say so and not weasel out with this:

The challenge goes for you, too, bunny. I don't think anyone has yet seen you manage to talk about more than one thing at a time, now's your chance to prove wrong our suspicion that you can't.

 

[Nick Terry]

After you're done you may explain why the camp populations didn't go completely berserk knowing 10s of thousands of their fellow Jews were being gassed/terminated every month.

Oh that's right millions were deported to the camps but none had a clue. Mums the word.

The gassing premise is a brain dead one. Didn't it follow the mass steaming and the mass electrocution premises?

Don't people crap and urinate when they die? I don't remember reading about this aspect of cleanup and while moving the bodies.

Several more strawmen from you, which like the previous strawman has been addressed repeatedly on this thread.

CM, your 'gotcha' questions have been dealt with often enough in the history books you haven't read. It's not up to anyone here to spell out all the details for you, it's up to you to know what your target actually is, otherwise you simply create a strawman. And you just missed your target, yet again.

Did the deportees know what awaited them at the camps? Quite a few did, especially those from Poland

Did they resist on arrival? Quite a few times.

Did they try to escape the camps if they were left alive for work? Most assuredly.

So your 'none had a clue' is already refuted.

Now try responding to what is in the history books, instead of the crap you picked up from rense.com

It'd also help if you stopped with the fallacies of the excluded middle. There's no reason why human behaviour should always be exclusively one thing or another, and several thousand years of recorded history indicate it usually isn't.

 

[LemmyCaution]

It's like the classic locked room mystery: we have evidence of people coming in and not coming out. One naturally wants to know why. The answer is provided by a variety of pieces of evidence. There's also the fact that multiple sites were involved, and they are daisychained together by a lot of evidence in common as well as evidence which links them directly.

Which brings us back to an unanswered request from a day or so ago:

Since you know so much, perhaps you will tell us where did the Nazis take the Jews after "delousing"?

 

[little grey rabbit]

The challenge goes for you, too, bunny. I don't think anyone has yet seen you manage to talk about more than one thing at a time, now's your chance to prove wrong our suspicion that you can't.

Would you like some material for your book? I would be happy to oblige, but as a known Hasbara agent I would not be able to get onto any authentic revisionist site to be reference-able