Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

And yet, here it is... proven true.

First, the Case:

From Krasnaya Zvezda, July 1942:

Yes, I posted that entire quote.

Where does it mention rape? Clue: It doesn't.

And The Lethal Outcome:

That Lethal Outcome... As Clearly Shown In A German Film, 1944:

Again where did Ehrenburg discuss rape?

Nemmersdorf, where females from 8 to 80 were gang-raped to death and nailed--CRUCIFIED--to barn doors. (Who cares about Matthew 23, you ask? Obviously Ehrenburg's listeners did... why else did they crucify them? True Prophecy ALWAYS happens. As it did, in Nemmersdorf. Ehrenburg's hands are stained with this blood... the blood of those they believed to be Christian. As Jesus says, He will send His Prophets who to be killed by those who have forever killed all of the righteous of the earth.)

Oh, dear. Are you laboring under the misconception that the vast majority of Red Army troops committing rape weren't Christians?

Are you daft?

More Historical Fact:

If you feel toward the end of your life that you helped establish a lie, then what is required to justify yourself is not memoirs but an immediate bold self-sacrifice."
--Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Which proves that Ehrenburg did divulge that he was wrong, after the fact.

A fascinating book, actually. He tells us that those who were used to being THE denunciators... well... what goes around actually DID come back around... with a vengeance! A preview.

I don't suppose you actually read it. You quoted from another Solzhenitsyn book, from a volume that hasn't been translated into English. You know how I know it hasn't been translated? His sons do his translations into English, because they were raised here. I've met two of the three. But do tell me all about Solzhenitsyn.

 

[Hans]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column

Excerpt:

have never been so upset by a poll in my life. Only 22% of Americans now believe "the movie and television industries are pretty much run by Jews," down from nearly 50% in 1964. The Anti-Defamation League, which released the poll results last month, sees in these numbers a victory against stereotyping. Actually, it just shows how dumb America has gotten. Jews totally run Hollywood.

How deeply Jewish is Hollywood? When the studio chiefs took out a full-page ad in the Los Angeles Times a few weeks ago to demand that the Screen Actors Guild settle its contract, the open letter was signed by: News Corp. President Peter Chernin (Jewish), Paramount Pictures Chairman Brad Grey (Jewish), Walt Disney Co. Chief Executive Robert Iger (Jewish), Sony Pictures Chairman Michael Lynton (surprise, Dutch Jew), Warner Bros. Chairman Barry Meyer (Jewish), CBS Corp. Chief Executive Leslie Moonves (so Jewish his great uncle was the first prime minister of Israel), MGM Chairman Harry Sloan (Jewish) and NBC Universal Chief Executive Jeff Zucker (mega-Jewish). If either of the Weinstein brothers had signed, this group would have not only the power to shut down all film production but to form a minyan with enough Fiji water on hand to fill a mikvah.

Joel Stein

Why is that so deep a problem for you? Do you feel they are trying to convert us all? LOL

 

[Clayton Moore]

So, you assert that all Jews are greedy, that Jewish monomaniacal self-regard is real, and basically that Jews controll the media, political system and the academic world?

I am amazed that people have the audacity to bleat that American Jewish people don't control the media, political system and the academic world?

Add to that much of the investment and banking community and a favorably disproportional number of doctors, lawyers and judges make Jewish people a religion of aristocrats.


The same situation occurred in Germany. No matter the Aryan crap, Germany was ridding itself of aristocrats who happened to be Jewish, and often Communist activists.

 

[Gene Alley]

.
Yeah, why start a trend?

Tell you what, post the contact information for the person holding your bet in escrow (so that it can confirmed that a) the money exists and b) proper instructions have been arranged for its disbursement) and define "far in excess" so we know what standard *you* apply to that proviso, and I will also use the same trustee for my part of the bet.

Or run away some more...
.

OK, lets get the details nailed down. Here was my initial challenge:

I have never been a member of that forum, and you guys are too much fun. Lotsa panties all in a wad.

But without even doing any research I'd be willing to bet $500 each that the:

1)percentage of Federal reserve board members who are Jewish far exceeds the US Jewish population.

2)percentage of Supreme Court Justices who are Jewish far exceeds...

3)percentage of media owners/CEOs........


Anyone want to bet against my "crap"?

Above, I am referring to the percentage of Jews in the US population vs the percentage of Jews that are:

1) Federal Reserve Board members

2)US Supreme Court Justices

3)Major Media CEOs (NBC, CBS, Fox, Time Warner, ABC/Disney or any others that we mutually agree on)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Percentage of Jews In the US:

2.2%

A normal representative percentage would be somewhere between 1% and 5%, which is more than double the percentage of total US population that Jews represent. More than fair, no?

 

[Gene Alley]

Why is that so deep a problem for you? Do you feel they are trying to convert us all? LOL

Not to convert us, but to control us with a constant stream of mezmorizing BS.

http://www.prwatch.org/prwissues/1999Q2/bernays.html

Excerpt:

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society," Bernays argued. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. . . . In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons . . . who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."

This definition of "democratic society" is itself a contradiction in terms -- a theoretical attempt to reconcile rule by the few with the democratic system which threatened (and still threatens) the privileges and powers of the governing elite.

 

[uke2se]

Not to convert us, but to control us with a constant stream of mezmorizing BS.

Do you feel that Jews control you?

 

[Sceptic-PK]

OK, lets get the details nailed down. Here was my initial challenge:

I have never been a member of that forum, and you guys are too much fun. Lotsa panties all in a wad.

But without even doing any research I'd be willing to bet $500 each that the:

1)percentage of Federal reserve board members who are Jewish far exceeds the US Jewish population.

2)percentage of Supreme Court Justices who are Jewish far exceeds...

3)percentage of media owners/CEOs........


Anyone want to bet against my "crap"?

Above, I am referring to the percentage of Jews in the US population vs the percentage of Jews that are:

1) Federal Reserve Board members

2)US Supreme Court Justices

3)Major Media CEOs (NBC, CBS, Fox, Time Warner, ABC/Disney or any others that we mutually agree on)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Percentage of Jews In the US:

2.2%

A normal representative percentage would be somewhere between 1% and 5%, which is more than double the percentage of total US population that Jews represent. More than fair, no?

Clearly they are the master race.

 

[Dogzilla]

But the statement is also vague and inconclusive. There is nothing to suggest that the 'boys' were actually claiming to have been at Treblinka. If they had been quoted saying 'we saw x' then this would be conclusive proof that they were claiming to have been at Treblinka. Instead they are introduced as having been at four or five camps, leading up to a generalising remark - 'Treblinka was the worst'.

Your fuss-making over absent qualifiers ignores the fact that there are equally absent qualifiers in the other direction, such as 'that they had experienced themselves personally'.

The absence of qualifiers in the other direction isn't ignored. It's the reason I think the quote is interesting but not terribly important. That and the fact that the statement is hearsay one step removed.

Your logic is, as usual, extremely biased. If you are going to resort to inference to the best explanation, which is what you are pretending to do, then you must obey the rules of inference, which means, paying attention to what evidence exists and weighing up both sides properly.

An honest examination of the evidence would indicate that there is more than zero evidence for Treblinka being an extermination camp, in the shape of the many witnesses, some documents confirming certain witness claims, and the physical evidence of the condition of the site in 1945.

By contrast, there is no evidence that Treblinka served as a transit camp for all the deportees. There is only the evidence that two transports were selected with a few hundred deportees going to Majdanek in spring 43 with rest remaining at Treblinka II to be killed, and that two or three transports were selected locally for Treblinka I, who were then returned to be killed at Treblinka II once they were worn out and useless as workers. Versus several hundred transports overall.

Whether the evidence for extermination meets your exacting standards or not is irrelevant, since there is much, much more of it than there is to suggest that 100s of 1000s of Jews "transited" Treblinka.

You don't seem to have noticed that you are resorting to deductive logic versus inductive logic



and that deductive logic will always lose to inductive logic when one is discussing empirical matters.

Indeed, there is a name for the fallacy that you have just committed, the fallacy of possible proof.

Either prove transit, or prove something else. Don't waltz up here and handwave possibilities around as anything other than desperate speculation.

Your diversion into deductive/inductive/logical fallacies doesn't explain or negate the physical evidence of mass graves large enough to hold 700,000 people within the confines of a twelve acre site. I know that documentary and eyewitness testimony have given historians enough evidence to declare with a moral certainty that Treblinka was a death camp. Descriptions of how the camp operated, provided and corroborated by various independent eyewitnesses allow us to reconstruct a reasonably certain model of how the camp operated on a daily basis. As far as I know, eyewitnesses unanimously agree that hundreds of thousands of bodies were initially buried from the time the camp opened in July 1942 until Feb. or March of 1943.

Compared to other specific facts contained in witness testimony--like the size of the gas chambers or the number of gas chambers, or the diesel vs gasoline engine--the fact that all the bodies of Jews that were gassed were initially buried has never been contradicted or disputed (as far as I know).

The exact death toll is unknown and probably unknowable. But a range of 700,000 to 800,000 is generally accepted. The discovery of the Hoefle telegram in 2000 allows us to say with near certainty that the precise number of Jews murdered at Treblinka as of Dec. 31, 1942 was 713,555.

Total deaths can still be disputed. Many specific details of the death camps can still be disputed. But certain facts cannot be reasonably disputed. One of these facts is that Jews were murdered and buried from the time the camp opened until early 1943. We can be certain that 713,555 Jews were murdered from the time the camp opened until Dec. 31, 1942. Given these two facts, we can say without any uncertainty that a minimum of seven hundred thousand Jews were buried at Treblinka when the graves were opened and the bodies burned to erase the evidence of the crimes.

Obviously, burying seven hundred thousand bodies within twelve acres is going to require a hole(s) in the ground within that twelve acre site that is (are) large enough to hold seven hundred thousand bodies. A hole (or holes) big enough to hold that many bodies in an area that small is going to leave physical evidence that cannot be hidden or erased. Peasants with artillery shells searching for gold will not be able to erase evidence of that hole(s). Ukrainian farmers and lupins won't erase evidence of that hole(s). The passage of seventy years time isn't going to erase the evidence of that hole(s).

There is no evidence of a hole(s) that big at Treblinka today. The relative strength of all the other evidence isn't important when it comes to this question. If there isn't physical evidence of holes big enough for Treblinka sized mass graves at Treblinka today, there never were Treblinka sized mass graves at Treblinka. This is as close to proving a negative as you can get.

This isn't proof that Treblinka was a transit camp. This isn't evidence that Treblinka wasn't a death camp. The lack of evidence of mass graves does nothing more than prove that there weren't seven hundred thousand people buried there. How, or if, this changes the Treblinka story is a problem for professional historians.

 

[TSR]

Above, I am referring to the percentage of Jews in the US population vs the percentage of Jews that are:

1) Federal Reserve Board members

2)US Supreme Court Justices

3)Major Media CEOs (NBC, CBS, Fox, Time Warner, ABC/Disney or any others that we mutually agree on)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Percentage of Jews In the US:

2.2%

A normal representative percentage would be somewhere between 1% and 5%, which is more than double the percentage of total US population that Jews represent. More than fair, no?

.
Okay, the percentage of *provably* Jewish members of any of the agreed groups being 5% or less will represent your having lost the bet, yes?

To give a fair sampling, I would include the CEOs of The New York Times, the Tribune Group, the Wall Street Journal, Belo, Cablevision and Clear Channel to round out the MM entry.

Also, as an additional group the Executive branch of the US Government (the President, the Vice President, and the heads of the Executive Office of the President, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Defense, the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of the Interior, the Department of Justice, the Department of Labor, the Department of State, the Department of Transportation, the Department of the Treasury and the Department of Veterans Affairs) and the Governors of all 50 States, giving us 71 additional entities who actually *run* the country.

We will also have to reach an agreement on what precisely constitutes a person being Jewish: I would propose that this means simply self-identification as a Jew (membership in a synagogue, attendance of a Jewish school or direct quotes cited by a reliable source indicating such identification if they are not observant).

I still need the contact information for the entity holding your share of the bet in escrow and the terms of disbursement.
.

 

[Pacal]

Originally Posted by Gene Alley
These are not my words. This was a quote mined statement that one of your cohorts dug up from Bradley Smith's blog. It took two days for the guy to come up with, and aparently according to him/her it proves that Smith is a viscious Nazi and should be silenced.

Didn't take me two days. Took me me 10 minutes to find all the quotes.. I have a life other than this website.

Oh and please do not distort what I said. I never said Bradley Smith should be silenced. That is entirely your own fantasy. I personally think Bradley Smith is a purvayeur of nonsense. I've always felt that Holocaust Denial should be tolerated but that doesn't prevent me from calling crap, crap.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

@Dogzilla
Apart from the question if all the bodies were first buried. I thought this wasn't the case at Treblinka. How do you want to prove that there once was/were hole(s). And why do you seem to claim that the (former) presence of these holes has already been disproven? The Krege (non-)report?

 

[Pacal]

Gene Alley
So Bradley Smith is a "Stand up Guy". Really!?

This is a guy who says such things as:



Paschal dug through everything he could by Bradley Smith and came up with this as proof that Smith was a Nazi.

First it is Pacal not Paschal. Secondly I did not look through everything Bradley Smith I could find. I looked at a few of his postings. I could not stomach the crap for long. All it took was 5 minutes.

 

[Corsair 115]

These are not my words. This was a quote mined statement that one of your cohorts dug up from Bradley Smith's blog. It took two days for the guy to come up with, and aparently according to him/her it proves that Smith is a viscious Nazi...

Considering the quote in question is very much on par with the kind of things Hitler et. al. said numerous times in public speeches, it is not a grand leap at all to assert Nazi leanings. Indeed, it seems a perfectly natural progression.

 

[Corsair 115]

OK, lets get the details nailed down. Here was my initial challenge:

I have never been a member of that forum, and you guys are too much fun. Lotsa panties all in a wad.

But without even doing any research I'd be willing to bet $500 each that the:

1)percentage of Federal reserve board members who are Jewish far exceeds the US Jewish population.

2)percentage of Supreme Court Justices who are Jewish far exceeds...

3)percentage of media owners/CEOs........


Anyone want to bet against my "crap"?

Above, I am referring to the percentage of Jews in the US population vs the percentage of Jews that are:

1) Federal Reserve Board members

2)US Supreme Court Justices

3)Major Media CEOs (NBC, CBS, Fox, Time Warner, ABC/Disney or any others that we mutually agree on)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html

Percentage of Jews In the US:

2.2%

A normal representative percentage would be somewhere between 1% and 5%, which is more than double the percentage of total US population that Jews represent. More than fair, no?

Since this quote is yours, once again I apply my earlier comment: You are one step away from asserting a global Jewish conspiracy. The exact same kind of thing Hitler and other top Nazis constantly talked about.

(Then there's the silly nonsense of your "statistics". About 95% of child care workers are female. Women are thus vastly overrepresented in that profession. Some 92% of nurses are women. As are some 80% of elementary and middle school teachers, 75% of cashiers, 62% of accountants and auditors, and 57% of all realtors. Women are thus overrepresented in these professions as well. Clearly, something must be amiss since women are so prominent in these industries! Surely this overrepresentation must be as concerning to you as the alleged overrepresentation of Jews in the industries you mentioned!)

 

[LemmyCaution]

Not to convert us, but to control us with a constant stream of mezmorizing BS.

Gene,

Clearly you have an interest in Jewish life in the US. What do American Jews who are successful and powerful in some fields do differently from other people who are successful and powerful? What makes you interested in the achievements of American Jews but not other Americans in various areas of American business, government, culture, and life? It would also be interesting to hear what you mean by "control us," as 1) I had thought some Americans are Jewish, so that there is no us and them in this, and 2) you left unclear what control means, to what purpose control is sought and exercised, and how control is gained and maintained.

Regards, LC

PS - Please stop referring to your fellow forum members with taunts like honey and sweetie. It makes you look like a jerk to do this.

 

[MG1962]

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column

But you said newspapers - now we are onto films? And News Corp - you do know who REALLY runs that. Been in the news a bit lately. Has an Anglican Minister for a grandfather, and a really cool Australia accent, and his mother is a truely amazing human being

 

[Clayton Moore]

Gene,

Clearly you have an interest in Jewish life in the US. What do American Jews who are successful and powerful in some fields do differently from other people who are successful and powerful? What makes you interested in the achievements of American Jews but not other Americans in various areas of American business, government, culture, and life? It would also be interesting to hear what you mean by "control us," as 1) I had thought some Americans are Jewish, so that there is no us and them in this, and 2) you left unclear what control means, to what purpose control is sought and exercised, and how control is gained and maintained.

Regards, LC

PS - Please stop referring to your fellow forum members with taunts like honey and sweetie. It makes you look like a jerk to do this.

Since YOU ASKED. They start wars against Israel's enemies that get American soldiers killed.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Actually, that's patently untrue.

Even if it was true - which it most certainly is not - the Germans started the war and the Jews were the major victims. It's a no brainer were sympathies will lie.

Also, could you please fix your quotes? It's not really that hard.

The Soviets and the Chinese were the major victims of WWII.

 

[uke2se]

The Soviets and the Chinese were the major victims of WWII.

Nope. Victims imply you can't effectively fight back. Both the Soviets and the Chinese fought back very effectively, the Soviets managing to soundly defeat your aryan heroes, while the Chinese fought the Japanese to a stand still.

 

[Wroclaw]

The Soviets and the Chinese were the major victims of WWII.

In terms of absolute losses, yes.

In terms of percentage of total population, the Jews were the big losers. Two-thirds of all the Jews in Europe were dead at the end of the war, and another quarter left the continent during or within three years of the end of the war. It was the end of traditional Jewish civilization in Eastern Europe. No other society in Europe suffered that fate. Nor any society elsewhere —*at least during WWII.