Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

In addition to which, as I asked LGR, did Ehrenburg's outburst in 1942 parallel Striecher's work? Did Ehrenburg sustain over a period of two decades, as a central obsession, a campaign against a tiny minority in his country?

 

[Gene Alley]

Ah yes, Mr. McCalden. A member of the neo-fascist National Front.

Next!

Mr. McCalden was a member of a political movement that you don't approve of. Is that supposed to be a blanket refutation of everything he has ever written or said? I don't think so little buddy. Did he also deserve to be beaten up for voicing his political beliefs? You guys are really a riot.

I have been reading "Break His Bones" by Bradley Smith. Being an Angelino I am really enjoying this book, as his discriptions of earlier times in LA are right on target. Mr Bradley is what people of my generation call a 'stand up guy'. Like almost all Korean War vets I have come to know over the years he has that certain sense of duty to country without all of the whining associated with the Viet Nammers of my generation and a great sense of humor. His wit and wisdom are truly a gift. I would highly recommend his book to all.

http://codohfounder.com/books-plays...-life-of-a-holocaust-revisionist/chapter-nine

Excerpts:

"The New York Times publishes an interview with an old fellow in the Bronx who claims that every day at Buchenwald the Germans threw a Jew into a cage with a bear and an eagle. The bear would eat the Jew and the eagle would pick his bones."

"One reason American veterans might use memory as a tool for personal insight and reconciliation with old foes while Holocaust survivors use it to reinforce hateful stereotypes for political gain, may be that our Vietnam vets took an active part in battle as free men while “survivors” surrendered up front to their sworn enemies and labored for them as “slaves” throughout the war. Unwilling to express their rage while Germans were tearing their women and children from them and sending them off to God knows where or what, Jewish men labored for their masters throughout the war to help defeat the armies sent to liberate them. Self-hatred, which some Jews talk about so much, must have deepened considerably during the war and the years following it, particularly among the men. It would be interesting to learn what differences there might be in the psychological profiles of those Jews who worked for the Germans during the war and those who joined partisan or other resistance groups and fought the Germans.

"It’s not an attack on all Jews to question stories some Jews tell. It’s a mitzvah. It’s a blessing, which I have denied Jews the benefit of nearly all my life, first with my foolish credulity and then with my fear of shaming them. My own dishonesty has been a guide for many Jews, while my weaknesses have encouraged them to fall victim to their weaknesses. I owe Jews everything I owe my friends and myself. At the very least I owe them honesty, regard and forthrightness. I’m going to give to Jews and to all others now what I have denied them for so long. The time is come."

Good stuff!!

 

[Wroclaw]

Mr. McCalden was a member of a political movement that you don't approve of.

It's not that he's a member of a political movement that I don't approve of. It's that he was an admitted fascist. That makes him unreliable when discussing fascist war crimes.

Is that supposed to be a blanket refutation of everything he has ever written or said?

No.

I don't think so little buddy.

Don't call me "little buddy."

Did he also deserve to be beaten up for voicing his political beliefs? You guys are really a riot.

I'm glad you find it funny. Yes, every fascist deserves a beating.

I have been reading "Break His Bones" by Bradley Smith
Excerpts:

Clearly you are here to spam.

Good stuff!!

De gustibus non est disputandum...

 

[Wroclaw]

As a point of reference, here is the political organization to which Mr. McCalden belonged:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(United_Kingdom)

 

[uke2se]

Mr Bradley is what people of my generation call a 'stand up guy'.

The generation before you would have called him "enemy", as he's a Nazi.

 

[LemmyCaution]

People of all sorts get defeated because powerful people often attack people who are not as militarily strong as they are. When their sworn enemies defeat them, the people who are targeted and beaten sometimes are not left many choices, depending on the will of the sworn enemies. The sworn enemies may find it easy to defeat people who did not expect an attack and who lack for example military organization and arms. The sworn enemies can then brutalize and terrorize those whom they've subjugated -- and at some later time, their epigones, fellow travelers and wannabes can pick up on the themes of these sworn enemies and blame those defeated for their supposed collaborative passivity, for the psychological propensity to indulge in a culture of victimization animated by group self-destruction fantasies, for neuroses and anxieties leading to hatred of their tormenters, and for lamentation of martyrdom. To mock those defeated and try beating them down a second time. And then whine and complain when such people refuse to be beaten another time, and instead organize themselves and take steps to protect themselves. I think it might work like that, when sworn enemies defeat a people and destroy their culture, livelihoods, and basis for existence--and then latter day sworn enemies pick up the themes of their role models.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The generation before you would have called him "enemy", as he's a Nazi.

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-10-25/news/mn-4132_1_david-mccalden He comes off as a real peach.

 

[Wroclaw]

Well, the up shot is that he was dead a year later...

 

[Gene Alley]

The generation before you would have called him "enemy", as he's a Nazi.

That is just another flat out lie and vain attempt to stifle free speech by deception. The more I learn, the clearer it is to see through all of you guy's sleazy tactics. Mr. Smith is a Libertarian and a staunch first ammendment supporter.

 

[Rincewind]

If I proved to you that Ilya Ehrenberg is, to this day, more guilty than Julius Streicher, would it alter your belief system?

Would it turn Streicher's over-long rope into a pardon?

Would it remake Germany's National Guilt into International repentance?

Me personally... I believe Matthew 23.

Ah - it's good to see someone bringing out the tu quoque!

It's been in the shadows far too long IMO.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Ah - it's good to see someone bringing out the tu quoque!

It's been in the shadows far too long IMO.

It is good to see it back, but it does lose some of its impact when the "tu" isn't under discussion and hasn't been defended by anyone . . . which doesn't stop it from making an appearance now and again.

 

[dafydd]

The generation before you would have called him "enemy", as he's a Nazi.

My dad and uncles killed Nazis.

 

[dafydd]

Mr. McCalden was a member of a political movement that you don't approve of.

The National front a political movement? Don't make me laugh. I was a member of Rock Against Racism in the 1970.s,which was formed because the NF had persuaded some idiots to vote for them in local elections. The NF was not a political party,it was a collection of knuckle dragging racists.

 

[dafydd]

That is just another flat out lie and vain attempt to stifle free speech by deception. The more I learn, the clearer it is to see through all of you guy's sleazy tactics. Mr. Smith is a Libertarian and a staunch first ammendment supporter.

A Nazi supporter calling other people sleazy? That is rich.

 

[Wroclaw]

Ah - it's good to see someone bringing out the tu quoque!

It's been in the shadows far too long IMO.

No doubt our "friends" will tell us they shelved it because it was deemed not admissible at Nuremberg...

 

[Cyrix686]

The National front a political movement? Don't make me laugh. I was a member of Rock Against Racism in the 1970.s,which was formed because the NF had persuaded some idiots to vote for them in local elections. The NF was not a political party,it was a collection of knuckle dragging racists.

NF= NO FUN.

Ulster. Perhaps he was a Unionist man first off. Then he became attracted to the more radical politics. Parts of N. Ireland under Unionist mural painters and decorators look like a BNP NF rally anyway. So..Take out the stuff about 1689, King Billy and the Red hand of Ulster and it would be hard to tell the difference. These UK Nazi. parties never fail to try and hijack these things for their own political purposes.

The NF certainly had party political broadcasts upon television in 1979 Daffyd and 120,000 or so voted NF in the Thatcher election. The NF certainly were a political party of sorts. At least in that nasty 70's version that we all remember. And they likely still are as they will be looking now to capitalize upon the BNP's failings. As a gap opens up in the Far Right here, perhaps the NF are due a comeback.

They recruited from the hard firms at the football, as much as young punkers at Sham69 concerts. R against R was formed as a reaction against increasing Nazism within music and from the outspoken utterances of some of its exponents. Bowie, Clapton and the like, It didn't help that music for a while helped the swastika become, "fashionable." and visible either. Rock against Racism tried to combat a lot of that and was generally respected amongst the youth who were not racists for doing so. The NF did have a major trouble-making skinhead bootboy following.

The NF deliberately targeted young kids outside the school gates to join-up. A cynical enough exercise I think designed to get minds and bodies while they were young. They needed the bods for marches and for street fighting and to spread the message in school. They had repulsive sticker campaigns in the late 70's. One of these featured a picture of a sikh guy wearing a turban, over the lines, "We want your jobs, we want your homes, we want your women." Stuck to lamposts.

 

[Pacal]

So Bradley Smith is a "Stand up Guy". Really!?

This is a guy who says such things as:

Jewish greed, Jewish monomaniacal self-regard, joined with the self-defeating and degenerate acquiescence of both by non - Jews throughout the American political system, media, and academic worlds, ensure that the taboo against questioning any of this murderous nonsense is enforced.

http://bradleysmithsblog.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

And concerning Mark Weber's ideology we have Mr. Smith, (In same location), saying:

Weber's discussion of Jewish suffering, though, is a lead-in to the historian's broader point, which is that the Holocaust doubters have not been effective agents in the broader battle against Jewish power.

Or how about this:

What I have found over the last twenty-five years is that with regard to the Holocaust story all the empathy in the press, on campus, in government, in Hollywood, is in fact flooded with empathy for Jews. No where do we find empathy for WWII Germans. Or for that matter any other WWII Europeans who are not Jews. With regard to Jews and Germans, Hollywood reflects, and in its way directs, empathy throughout American culture toward Jews, none toward Germans. There is so much empathy for Jews that what they say about German behavior during WWII is “always” believed, while there is so little empathy for Germans that nothing they say about their own behavior is believed, other than that which collaborates what Jews say.

From http://bradleysmithsblog.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009-01-01T22:27:00-08:00&max-results=5

Utter crap. On the same page you can find Bradly Smith congradulating himself for not being an anti-semite. It is compulsively funny.

But then Mr. Smith as been candid about his deliberately using Free Speech arguements, and carefully tailored arguements to push forward his actual agenda of promoting denial.

Oh and in regards to Faurisson what about this lovely comment:

Obviously, it is 'sweet' to be Jewish in these final years of the century, but only a Jew has the right to say so. In effect, as Finkielkraut acknowledges, it is no longer possible to publish without the imprimatur of organized Jewry. In effect, I might add, the Jew reigns unopposed.

From Faurisson, Robert, , Ah, How Sweet It Is to Be Jewish, Journal of Historical Review, November / December, 1998, p. 11. (The journal of Mr. Mark Weber)

In the same issue of the Journal of Historical Review, is the following lovely lines concerning Jews in Russia during the 1990s, published without an author given:

But in the midst of this widespread economic misery, a small minority has grown fabulously wealthy since the end of the Soviet era. Although Jews make up no more than three or four percent of Russia's population, they wield enormous economic ands political power in that vast and troubled country.

From A Jewish Appeal to Russia's Jewish Elite, p. 13.

 

[dafydd]

So Bradley Smith is a "Stand up Guy". Really!?

.

I believe that Nazis have been known to stand up from time to time. They usually balance on their knuckles as well,but they can do it.

 

[Clayton Moore]

This mention of "fuss" by Nick shows how little the lives of those millions of Jewish children, women, and men mean to today's Holocaust supremacists. The Holocaust they are really concerned about is how their place in political power bases is entrenched by the Holocaust. It shows that even when the gassings are completely disproved and a policy of genocide by the Germans is proved false they will say no matter, never again will anyone remove them from power.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What is disrespectful is your utter ignorance of the history. The victims were trapped behind German lines and closed off in ghettos. That was after sizeable percentages had fled, some to safety and some who ended up overrun by the Nazis.

Kiev had 200,000 Jewish inhabitants before the war. When the Nazis arrived in September 1941, there were about 35,000 left. The rest had fled, because they'd heard about Nazi shootings, and because they were evacuated without preference or favour as part of the Soviet evacuation of workforces and industry to the Urals.

More than 1 million Soviet Jews were evacuated or fled out of the area that was to come under Nazi occupation. 2.5 million died in the same region or were deported. That means close to 30% could escape.

Most of the Jews in the Soviet Union lived on the western borders. They didn't have much of a chance to flee anywhere when the Nazis first arrived. Most were then fenced off in ghettos guarded by men with guns. But that didn't stop them trying to escape when they realised what was happening. 25% of the Jews trapped in the Volhynia region in Ukraine tried to escape the shooting actions. They were then hunted down in ones, twos, 10s, and killed. They were lucky - there were at least some forests nearby. Most of Ukraine is steppe, without forests to hide in.

Same pattern in Poland. 300,000 Polish Jews fled east across the Nazi-Soviet border in 1939, before there were really large-scale killings but when they knew that life under the Nazis would be unpleasant. Then the border was closed and they couldn't escape. 10s 1000s more fled inside Nazi occupied territory, 100s of 1000s were expelled. Then ghettos were erected and they were prohibited from moving anywhere. From late 1941, the penalty for being caught outside the ghetto was usually death, from late 1942 it was always death.

But that didn't stop lots of Jews from trying to flee and hide in the forests or go underground in the towns. The catch was, it was very difficult to survive in hiding. Polish Jews knew this, they knew they could not all blend in and keep themselves hidden. How would they all feed themselves? How could an entire ghetto like Warsaw with nearly 400,000 inhabitants hide themselves outside the ghetto? 10s of 1000s did, but expecting 100% to have done this is poppycock.

That's just crap. Soldiers apart from the main force fighting the Russians manage to kill millions of people without raging opposition? Your continued belittlement of the fortitude of the Jewish people is pathetic. The ferocity of the Jewish people in the Russian revolution and pre Israel aggression, and today's JDL says passive wasn't gonna happen.