Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Wroclaw said:
No, he wasn't. He was a criminal and he was called out by the Canadian authorities for having been so.

And I'm not talking about hate crimes either. The guy was in deep. Look over the CHRC files on him; they're available online.
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I suppose that he was given a pass on all of all these other crimes by the Canadian authorities because they liked him so much.:rolleyes::rolleyes: As far as I can ascertain he was only charged using ridiculous thought crime laws and even in those cases the law did not apply to what he was doing which was in the ADLs assessment:


http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/zun...at=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=zundel

"The principal outlet for Zundel's early activities was his Toronto-based company, Samisdat Publishers, Ltd., which produced Zundel originals (like The Hitler We Loved and Why) and Holocaust-denial classics (including The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, by Arthur Butz; A Straight Look at the Third Reich and The Six Million Swindle, by Austin App; and Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald: The Greatest Fraud in History, by Richard Harwood).[2] In addition, Zundel created two essentially one-man operations: the German-Jewish Historical Commission, which promoted Holocaust denial, and Concerned Parents of German Descent, which disseminated anti-Zionist propaganda to ethnic Germans. Zundel also contributed articles to the now-defunct West Virginia-based neo-Nazi magazine, Liberty Bell, published by George Dietz, and was listed on the editorial staff of White Power Report, another Dietz publication.

Zundel's early writings are a mix of neo-Nazi and white supremacist rhetoric, condemnations of Jews and Zionism, charges that Western media and governments bash Germany and Germans, and Holocaust-denial and conspiracy theory. He was fixated on U.F.O.'s, believing them to be Nazi secret weapons based somewhere in Antarctica. He also promoted a new edition of Henry Ford's The International Jew in Liberty Bell.[3] An article in the January 1977 issue of White Power Report entitled "Our New Emblem: The Best of Two Worlds" (referring to a design that merged a swastika and the American flag) conveys the tone of Zundel's work during this time:

Wherever we look, we White people find ourselves besieged by peoples of other races who compete aggressively against us for jobs, food, housing, education and above all -- power! The Jews are particularly adept at seizing or insinuating themselves into strategic positions in our society where they wield power far beyond the extent of their numbers....Through us, the White majority of Europe and America, the Jewish minority have obtained their advantages, including their Israel, their Federal Reserve, their World Bank and their International Monetary Fund. In exchange for these advantages, the Jews give us -- their White hosts -- wars, depressions, inflation, unemployment, energy shortages, higher and higher taxes and air piracy. Like sheep, they expect us to go down the road with them -- all the way to the kosher slaughterhouse. We White people of America have done nothing so far which would frustrate the Jews' expectations or their ambitions of becoming the world's slavemasters.

Zundel also proselytized among minority European ethnic groups in Canada; in a 1981 flier to "Fellow Canadians of the Ethnic Press," he warned:

You may remember that I had predicted that your own ethnic group and some of your leading citizens would next be the targets of defamation, vilification and distortion and that some of you might be transported to the Soviet Union and/or Israel for torture, trial and execution because the Zionists are striving to equate anti-Communism with Fascism in the public mind. Despite the hateful depiction of Poles and Ukrainians in the Holocaust hate film,[4] you did not heed my warning. And now, the Zionist hate campaign is directed at you! ....

A wedge of lies, half-truths and anti-German propaganda has been driven between us by the Zionist-Communist commissars of disinformation. This propaganda wedge was purposely designed to keep anti-Communist peoples divided one against each other. We must smash this wedge of hate and come together.

Along these lines, Zundel also sent a flier to "Jewish leaders in North America, clergymen, politicians and media representatives" that warned (using the header "Act now -- prevent pogroms later"):"
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Now bear in mind that this is from the ADL which is probably the most biased source available and no doubt tried to paint Zundel in the worst possible light. That said, even what they have alleged is not criminal behaviour but expression of opinion which should be protected under freedom of speech.

I don't see any instances of incitation to violence against Jews or anyone else. In fact, the only violence or incitation of violence brought forth was by Jewish groups and aimed at Zundel. Henry Makow, a Jew himself would probably agree with much of what Zundel wrote in and distributed according to the ADL. He is still operating his website in Canada. Zundel is a pacifist who has constantly gone on the record stating catagorically that he is against wars and violence of any kind. Also I have yet to read anything writen by Zundel that espouses the belief that White people are superior to others. If you can, cite it.

On the other hand, the Chabad Lubavitch sect which has branches throughout the US, Canada, Germany and most of the western world are virulent Jewish Supremicists and violent hate mongers who teach their vile brand of whacky cult/religion to impressionable youths and hold summer camps and classes for toddlers. Has the Canadian government looked into them, or are many government officials in bed with them as they are in the U.S.? Look it up.

Cheers
 
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Wroclaw said:
As a side note, that man went to a military academy, then served in a branch of the Germany military called (wait for it...): the Luftwaffe.

For real.
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Good, now maybe someday we can quit paying the bill for the 50k troops that have been hanging on over there at the cost of billions per year for the last 6o+ years and bring them home.
 
Again, look at the CHRC stuff. You're only getting the top layer of crap that Zundel was into.
 
uke2se said:
It's nice that you just assume that the confessions were false, just because a guy who didn't see the gas chambers in operation used qualifiers such as "if".
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Testifying for the prosecution are about a handful of goofballs talking about ear nailing and throwing babies into gas chambers, into the air onto bayonets, and fire pits while still alive.

When questioned by the prosecution the defendants confessed to the above nonsense.

If they weren't tortured or threatened why would they confess to nonsense?

Many prominent Americans and others went on record about the farces that were the post war trials.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Which was?

Wait. By invading do you mean fire bombing civilians in cities like Dresden?
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No, I think rather he was talking about marching your army into countries, such as: Poland, Belgium, France, Norway, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Austria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Hungary, Italy, the Soviet Union...

Anyone I forgot?
 
By invading do you mean fire bombing civilians in cities like Dresden?
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What like the German's terror bombings of Warsaw and Rotterdam?........Or do you deny that happened too? LOL
 
Gene Alley said:
I was wrong regarding the German Military, thanks for the correction.
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I'm curious how you to came to conclude that Germany had no military. What was the basis for that?


Clayton Moore said:
Which was?
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Gee, I don't know, it might have something to do with Germany being at war with Britain and its Commonwealth, the United States, Russia, and having invaded and conquered Belgium, Denmark, France, Holland, Luxembourg, Norway...


Gene Alley said:
By invading do you mean fire bombing civilians in cities like Dresden?
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You on about that again? Please explain what is a "civilian city." Shall I provide you a list of the facilities in Dresden which were directly and indirectly involved in the war effort? Do I have to yet again point out that the only reason for the high number of casualties there was due to the freak occurrence of a firestorm? (Had there been no firestorm, few today would be talking about the Feb. 13/14, 1945, raid on the city.) Why do you keep bringing up Dresden yet completely ignore Hamburg? Do you know even one thing about the history of the strategic bomber offensive? Shall I post again the crippling effects the bombing campaign had on the German war economy? Do Guernica, Rotterdam, or Coventry mean anything to you?

Or are you just going to keep playing the "Oh, poor, little Nazi Germany! How dare the Allies pick on them!" card?
 
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Gene Alley said:
Nowhere in your laughable evidence are any writings or quotations attributed to Zundel that are hateful, nor any that encourage using violence against anyone.
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Perhaps you need to learn what "purveyor of hate" means? Methinks you've got it wrong.
 
Nick Terry said:
Reading for comprehension and not being such a literalist retard might help more. Indeed, your vaunted physics would strongly suggest that you are reading the quote wrong. Language being what it is, people don't always express themselves very clearly, and this seems like one such case.

The quote doesn't sound to me like the victim was hanging "from the door" by his genitals. It sounds more like they hung up the victim by his arms, and then tied a separate rope. That would be something that would become clear if one compared multiple testimonies, rather than cherrypicking a partial quote from a secondary source paraphrased on an internet forum.

Your vaunted physics can help us rule out the nonsensical reading, and point us in a more likely direction. But no, of course you immediately decide the nonsensical reading must be the right one, since that way you can make fun of victims of Nazi torture. Plus you seem to have a thing about penises, judging by past posts...
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You're right. I misread the description of the torture. It probably was a prisoner being hung by his arms or his feet over the door and then using a rope tied to his genitals to swing him back and forth. That would be something very painful but wouldn't necessary cause the genitals to detach. It's plausible that the SS would do something like that. It sounds like something the US might do at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.

I should know that the most ridiculous interpretation of a survivor testimony isn't always the right one. I stand corrected.
 
Dogzilla said:
You're right. I misread the description of the torture. It probably was a prisoner being hung by his arms or his feet over the door and then using a rope tied to his genitals to swing him back and forth. That would be something very painful but wouldn't necessary cause the genitals to detach. It's plausible that the SS would do something like that. It sounds like something the US might do at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.

I should know that the most ridiculous interpretation of a survivor testimony isn't always the right one. I stand corrected.
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May I present Dogzilla's admission that he was wrong (even on a tiny side issue like this) as a model for some of our other deniers to follow more often... Saggy? Clayton? Gene? (Gasp) Bunny?
 
Dogzilla said:
You're right. I misread the description of the torture. It probably was a prisoner being hung by his arms or his feet over the door and then using a rope tied to his genitals to swing him back and forth. That would be something very painful but wouldn't necessary cause the genitals to detach. It's plausible that the SS would do something like that. It sounds like something the US might do at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.

I should know that the most ridiculous interpretation of a survivor testimony isn't always the right one. I stand corrected.
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It's more plausible that the interrogators at the post war trials would do something like that. After all they made up all the crap that they accused the Germans of doing.
 
Saggy said:
Didn't you know the laws of physics were suspended for the holohoax?

That quote was worth googling, and Sofksy's book is online, and there is another novel technique described ....

. Another technique was to dip the genitals alternately in cold and boiling hot wat... pg. 240

Ouch ! And how does one 'dip' the genitals into a pot? of water? LOL. Sheer idiocy, like most of the first person hoax testimony.

Unfortunately my computer is too slow to bring up the page, but there are a bunch of genital torture techniques described on page 240.
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It seems we've established a few things: 1) Deniers, as represented here by Saggy, either don't like to or can't read. Whether or not Saggy believes that the tortures described occurred, his stated reason for doubt -- physics -- is rubbished by the passage in Sofsky, p 227. 2) Deniers quote selectively to be able to dismiss, albeit dismissing caricatures of what they quote. 3) Deniers add in details to their quotes, such as "a pot? of water?" There is no mention of a pot of water in Sofsky on p 227 (or p 240, which doesn't mention genital torture). 3) Deniers get a giggle out of sexual pathology and abuse. "LOL" indeed. 4) Contrary to Clayton Moore's original claim about the absence of sexual abuse in the narrative, sexual pathology on the part of the Nazis is recorded; in fact, according to Saggy a bunch of times on p 240 of Sofsky, which is an incorrect reference but the point stands. 5) The denier gold standard -- argument from incredulity -- is still handy as ever. and in good hands with Saggy.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cl...&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=genitals&f=false
 
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Nick Terry said:
Without a proper citation and quote being supplied, we cannot know for sure, and unfortunately Dogzilla's track record with sources is not the best, even if it's somewhat better than the bunny's.
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I can't link to the source because it's behind the New Yorker paywall. The relevant passage is from a story about a visit a reporter "made to Durley, in Hamsphire, a camp for Jewish children brought to England from Nazi concentration camps." It appeared in The New Yorker on March 2, 1946, page 56-57:
He jumped up, tapped on the window, and called in German to two boys who were passing outside. "They are from Belsen, and I have told them to come in and meet you," he said, sitting down again. "You know, it's funny, the English press has called all these children who have come over here Belsen children, but many have never been to that camp. Belsen and Buchenwald have taken all the limelight, but there were others far worse, far more horrible, which no one seems to know about. Many of our boys have been in four or five camps, and if you ask them, they say Treblinka, in Poland, was the worst."
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To be fair, the article does say that the 'Treblinka Song' was well known throughout the camps and the ghettos so the fact that these two boys knew the words to the song does not necessarily mean that they were both in Treblinka. The article does not specifically say these two boys were in Treblinka, only that the director knows of many boys who transited through several camps and that Treblinka was the worst.
 
Nick Terry said:
May I present Dogzilla's admission that he was wrong (even on a tiny side issue like this) as a model for some of our other deniers to follow more often... Saggy? Clayton? Gene? (Gasp) Bunny?
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Your participation in the biggest ongoing hoax in the history of man makes you wrong as acid rain. When the lies are reconciled you can come back and ask.
 
Nick Terry said:
May I present Dogzilla's admission that he was wrong (even on a tiny side issue like this) as a model for some of our other deniers to follow more often... Saggy? Clayton? Gene? (Gasp) Bunny?
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Agreed. Thank you Dogzilla for manning up on this one. We actually agree on something, as Abu Ghraib came to mind for me also, in thinking about this passage.
 
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