Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

This didn't help.

Please cut out the cute stories. Just say what you have to say. It should be easy.

No fooling. This cuteness comes across as mockery of the problem and the victims, as in

I am not really interested in tracking down Jews who don't wish to be found - so long as they aren't beneath the sandy soil of Treblinka I have no further interest in their welfare, beyond a confidence that their fate has been happy.

It is just that it is hard to credit bunny's self-proclaimed grief for victims in Libya and Afghanistan, say, when he mocks victims of the Third Reich and belittles with this cuteness what they went through. Or is it victims of only some governments with whom he sympathizes? Or only specific classes of victims, for example those who are not members of a certain ethnic group that has, in his view, lost all self respect?

(Your summary of Clayton Moore's predicament was spot on - it is curious why rabbit could not restrain his greed for attention and his love for mocking, given the abject situation he's made himself partner to.)

 

[headscratcher4]

This didn't help.

Please cut out the cute stories. Just say what you have to say. It should be easy.

Don't you think he's saying that so long as you're not encumbered by facts, logic or reason, you can understand his point of view?

 

[Oystein]

Don't you think he's saying that so long as you're not encumbered by facts, logic or reason, you can understand his point of view?

That's not what the Soviet dialogue is about, is it?

 

[headscratcher4]

I don't think his parable has anything to do with the Soviet dialogue. It has to do with him trying to justify his logical, reasoning and factual failures by trying to suggest that he operates on some hight level (beyond fact, logic and reason). In short, it is a typical dodge. Why answer perfectly reasonable questions when you can provide a meaningless parable?

 

[ddt]

I just caught up with this thread. Let's repeat the simple question BSO posed a couple of days ago about Dutch survivors of Sobibor:

From the 1946 Report we already knew where they lived after they returned to the Netherlands:
1. Mej. Cato Polak, Wagenstraat 185, Den Haag
2.Mej. Sophie Huisman, Mathenesserlaan 405. Rotterdam
3. Mej. Judith Eliazar, Pupillenstraat 65. Rotterdam
4. Mevr Berhta Jansen-Ensel, van Brakelstraat 3b, Rotterdam
5. Mej. (Celine) Selina Ensel, van Brakelstraat 3b, Rotterdam
6. Mevr. Mirjam Penha-Blitz, Jekerstraat 14, Amsterdam
7. Mej.Sophie Verduin, Kribbestraat 41, Amsterdam
8. Mej. Beppie van Praag, Breitnerstraat 77, Rotterdam
9. Mej. Deetje van Praag, Breitnerstraat 77, Rotterdam
10. Mej. Suze Polak, Breugelstraat 213, Den Haag
11. Mej. Söre Polak, Breugelstraat 213, Den Haag
12. Mevr. Jeanette de Vries-Blitz, Palestrinastraat 26, Amsterdam
13. Heer Elias Isak Alex Cohen, Tugelaweg 47 II, Amsterdam
14. Mevr Saartje Engel- Wijnberg, Nieuwe Veemarkt 23, Zwolle
15. Mej. Ursula Stern, Haagstraat 13, Utrecht
16 & 17 Zusters Sientje en Jetje Veterman, Sanatorium Hellendoorn
18. Heer Jozef Wins, Mauritskade 109, Amsterdam
19. Heer Jules Schelvis, Andreas Bonnstraat 9huis, Amsterdam
There is some information in that booklet which isn't accurate. Official research didn't stop. Today we have information from which we can conclude that the name of Mevr. Jeanette de Vries-Blitz shouldn't be on the list quoted above. We also know that Ursula Stern changed her name to Ilana Safran. She moved to Askalon, Israel. Miriam Novitch had no trouble finding her before her death,

[...]

Can you provide any names that fit these criteria? A person who,
a. Is mentioned by name in the Transport Lists for Sobibor, and
b. Was alive after 1945, but
c. Isn't already on the official list of known survivors I quoted above

So, any of you Holocaust deniers - Clayton, LGR, Saggy, and who else lurks - can you help with this very simple task? Can you provide for one single Dutch Jew deported from Westerbork to Sobibor, not in the above list, their whereabouts post 1945? One single name and address, that's all I ask.

They went to the same places the German Jewish people went.

And where would that be, Clayton? No vagueness, but concrete geography!

However I can say that I worked a few years back with a Dutch Jewish girl of German background. I asked her about her family's experience during WW2, her grandfather was a refugee to the Netherlands from Worms and the spent the war growing potatoes in the country. His brother ended up in St Petersburg and he and his family stayed there after the war. I asked how he had actually ended up in St Petersburg and her answer was rather vague, to the point that I really have no idea how he got there.

Cute story, but an utter lack of specifics. Did you make that up on the spot?

 

[Saggy]

So, any of you Holocaust deniers - Clayton, LGR, Saggy, and who else lurks - can you help with this very simple task? Can you provide for one single Dutch Jew deported from Westerbork to Sobibor, not in the above list, their whereabouts post 1945? One single name and address, that's all I ask.

I cannot name a single Jew deported ..... etc. But then, put that in this context, I cannot find a single Jew that will confirm that the Auschwitz hoax gas chamber, complete with unsealed wooden office door with a large unbarred plate glass window, is a hoax and was never used to kill Jews. Looking for a single Jew with a shred of honesty regarding the holohoax is an impossible task. I'm not surprised no Jews have stepped forward to state the true fact that the claim that Sobibor was a 'death camp' is a degenerate lie.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I just caught up with this thread. Let's repeat the simple question BSO posed a couple of days ago about Dutch survivors of Sobibor:

So, any of you Holocaust deniers - Clayton, LGR, Saggy, and who else lurks - can you help with this very simple task? Can you provide for one single Dutch Jew deported from Westerbork to Sobibor, not in the above list, their whereabouts post 1945? One single name and address, that's all I ask.

And where would that be, Clayton? No vagueness, but concrete geography!

Taking note ClaytonMoore? Over 7400 comments, registered in December 2007, if such things matter, surely DDT qualifies for an explanation. Also:

You could start with the approx. 105,000 Dutch Jews that were deported and murdered. You can find their names and last known addresses here. Each pixel is one victim.

Can we have the first 1,000 by Monday 09:00 AM GMT?

You posted that [2nd October 2010]. Shall we be generous and give them another weekend?

 

[ddt]

I cannot name a single Jew deported ..... <evasive lies snipped>

You could start with the approx. 105,000 Dutch Jews that were deported and murdered. You can find their names and last known addresses here. Each pixel is one victim.

Can we have the first 1,000 by Monday 09:00 AM GMT?

You posted that [2nd October 2010]. Shall we be generous and give them another weekend?

For Saggy to memorize all 105,000 names or for them to actually come up with a single (see how generous I've become) Sobibor survivor?

 

[Saggy]

For Saggy to memorize all 105,000 names or for them to actually come up with a single (see how generous I've become) Sobibor survivor?

Out of curiosity, how many were Jews? Who compiled the list? How? What were the ethnic/national identities of the 105,000 names? Is there any Nazi data regarding Sobibor?

 

[Hans]

I do love watching Saggy trying to get away from answering this. Now he wants more information so he can, in time, and when he feels like it, deny it.

 

[A'isha]

Out of curiosity, how many were Jews?

The 105,000 people listed at that website? All of them. And every single one died before May 8, 1945 (the date Nazi Germany surrendered). No survivors are listed at that site, only those who died during WWII.

Who compiled the list?

The municipal authorities of Nazi-occupied Holland, in compliance with Ordinance 6 issued by Reichskommissar Arthur Seyss-Inquart on 10 January 1941.

How?

A compulsory registration form that required the Jews of Holland to provide first and last names, date and place of birth, address, last residence in the Third Reich, nationality, religious affiliation, occupation and marital status. Additional data served to classify people as full, half or quarter Jews, based on whether they belonged to a Jewish religious community, had a Jewish spouse, and how many Jewish grandparents they had.

What were the ethnic/national identities of the 105,000 names?

Dutch Jews.

Is there any Nazi data regarding Sobibor?

Yes. There was also a recent archaeological excavation of the Sobibor site which corroborates the descriptions given by the survivors of the prisoner revolt in 1943 that ended with the Nazis shutting the camp down.

 

[ddt]

Out of curiosity, how many were Jews?

Have you followed the link at all? Or are you illiterate? The name "Digital Monument to the Jewish Community in the Netherlands" should give a clue.

Who compiled the list? How?

See the FAQ.

What were the ethnic/national identities of the 105,000 names?

Irrelevant. They were all Dutch residents. Each entry mentions their last residence before being put on transport, the date they were transported to Westerbork or another transit camp, and the date they were put on transport to Auschwitz, Sobibor, or whatever KZ. Just click on any of those pixels to get a random entry.

Is there any Nazi data regarding Sobibor?

Entering "Sobibor" in the search field will give you 34,140 pages mentioning the camp. Is that enough information?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Out of curiosity, how many were Jews? Who compiled the list? How? What were the ethnic/national identities of the 105,000 names? Is there any Nazi data regarding Sobibor?

You deny the genocide - how can you be so ignorant of the basics of what you challenge?

And lazy? How can you wish to "revise" away the genocide, yet be too lethargic to bother to google information almost spoonfed to you?

 

[ddt]

I do love watching Saggy trying to get away from answering this. Now he wants more information so he can, in time, and when he feels like it, deny it.

I must wonder now, though, how he can read the posts here and click buttons to make posts here on JREF when he apparently lacks that capability when visiting the Digital Monument.

Dutch Jews.

A small nitpick: Dutch residents. You'll also find, e.g., Anne Frank, who didn't have Dutch nationality, like (IIRC) 20,000 other German Jews who had fled the Reich to Holland in the 1930s.

 

[A'isha]

A small nitpick: Dutch residents. You'll also find, e.g., Anne Frank, who didn't have Dutch nationality, like (IIRC) 20,000 other German Jews who had fled the Reich to Holland in the 1930s.

Whoops, you're right. I stand corrected.

 

[Saggy]

Have you followed the link at all?

I have not. I gather that the 105,000 are the names of Dutch Jews deported by the Nazis, and that that is all that is known about their fates.

 

[Saggy]

You deny the genocide - how can you be so ignorant of the basics of what you challenge?

There is simply no need to study the holohoax in any detail to realize that it is a pack of lies. When presented with the record of the Jews in claiming that there was a holocaust of 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in 1906, and then another holocaust of six million in WW One, one knows that they are capable of preposterous lies. When presented with the hoax gas chambers at Auschwitz and Majdanek, one's suspicions are confirmed that the WW II 'holocaust' is also a hoax. The third of the century. Like Bush II said, fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times, ... I don't think so.

Then, one can review the actual camp data that has been revealed, that is the Auschwitz data revealed by the Russians, to realize that there was no holohoax at Auschwitz. The Nazi data for the western camps, captured by the Brits/US, is still available to only select holohoax liars, but the hoax has evaporated there nonetheless.

The hoaxers are left with the Reinhard camps, where there is not a shred of physical evidence and no Nazi camp records to examine, to make up any story they choose. But, there is nothing to support it save the usual lies of the Jews.

 

[TSR]

I cannot name a single Jew deported ..... etc.

.
How uncharacteristically honest of you, to admit that you do not have any actual evidence of this 'deportation'
.

But then, put that in this context, I cannot find a single Jew that will confirm that the Auschwitz hoax gas chamber, complete with unsealed wooden office door with a large unbarred plate glass window, is a hoax and was never used to kill Jews.

.
For exactly the same reason you cannot find a single person who worked on the Nasa projects to the Moon to 'confirm' that the existence of full-scale replicas of the Lunar Lander mean that no US astronaut ever stepped foot on the Moon, and so represent evidence that every one of the Apollo astronauts simply retired to Kearney, NB: because that is not correct, and does not logically follow from any of the 'evidence' you can present.
.

Looking for a single Jew with a shred of honesty regarding the holohoax is an impossible task. I'm not surprised no Jews have stepped forward to state the true fact that the claim that Sobibor was a 'death camp' is a degenerate lie.

.
So, what is your 'proof' that Karl Frenzel lied when he stated that "Poles were not killed there. Gypsies were not killed there. Russians were not killed there...only Jews, Russian Jews, Polish Jews, Dutch Jews, French Jews.”
.

 

[ddt]

I have not. I gather that the 105,000 are the names of Dutch Jews deported by the Nazis, and that that is all that is known about their fates.

Yes. Wow, you're a quick learner.

And now why don't you give us just a single name - you hear it right, just a single name - out of those ca. 34,000 Dutch Jews who were deported to Sobibor and are not known to have returned, with evidence that they lived after WW2's end, with their whereabouts.

That's all I ask. And that, Saggy, will be way more evidence for your position than all the fallacies and lies you've been posting here thus far.

 

[TSR]

I have not. I gather that the 105,000 are the names of Dutch Jews deported by the Nazis, and that that is all that is known about their fates.

.
Except for the teeny tiny fact that this is *not* all that is known about these people.

Your argument from willful ignorance (otherwise known as "degenerate lying") is noted and rejected.
.