Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Bluespaceoddity]

They went to the same places the German Jewish people went.

Be more specific. Put it on a timeline too. As requested before.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

I can add a few thousand posts. Why would that matter? Oh, that's a question Clayton needs to answer.
Yes, I would like to read Clayton's answers to your questions as well. But, knowing Clayton, I already know that he will never answer them. He can never answer any questions, for he knows that any honest answer would destroy his arguments. he can never back up his claims, for they are never true. Clayton is all about dodging, evading, and running away like a weasle.

Admittedly futile but appreciated nonetheless - We'll wedge your 4529 between Erwinl and mine (chronological by date of JREF registration, not really my question but since E de Wind and his wife don't post here ...(I could give some other -more recent- credits but I'll leave it that for now.)

 

[erwinl]

They went to the same places the German Jewish people went.

That was not what I asked.

I didn't limit it to polish, german, dutch, russian or other jews. Just jews.

Where, in your opinion, did they go if they weren't singled out for extermination?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Then where have the jews gone in your opinion?

They went to the same places the German Jewish people went.

Asked and answered.

Originally Posted by Bluespaceoddity View Post


You'll have to explain your objections more clearly because to me at least they aren't as obvious as you like to pretend them to be.

You have 232 posts and I'm supposed to explain to you?

My points aren't rocket science. Pointing out what so and so said on page 86 won't be a deal breaker, a revelation that the Holocaust was 6 million, 10 million, 4 million, or 1.5 million.

My points show that sheer volume of alleged murders/executions make the Holocaust myth absurd if only by exaggeration.

Then there is the added absurdity of the Holocaust scholars demanding in the sixties and later that no one knew what was going in the camps then later doing a 180 and demanding that everyone knew and looked away.

And then there are all the testimony absurdities that bludgeon the sensibilities of any objective reader. Atop all those absurd testimonies are those by Wiesel and Wiesenthal the two most lauded Jewish men associated with the Holocaust. Both recognized as pathological liars....

And of course there is the immense power of the Holocaust lie(s) in spite of the Holocaust's biggest lie, gas chambers, never being mentioned in the post war writings of Churchill, Eisenhower, and de Gaulle.

Asked and answered. Again.

Edited by Tricky: 

Edited for rule 11.

 

[LemmyCaution]

My points aren't rocket science.

This is stating the obvious. Neither are they referenced or, as BSO noted, responsive. Even in this very post, you do just as he said, continue to repeat, like a mantra, something dealt with time and again, without responding to the points against your original assertion. Why indeed do you do these things? The shoddy, empty style of argument has no chance of convincing the unconvinced. And, to echo BSO, why do you link to sites with content like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion instead of sites which put content into relevant context? Are you not aware of the history of the Protocols, for example?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Asked and answered.

Then it should be very easy for you to summarize for those who do not have a long history here. Please post a link to the answer or summarize it, including how many Jews were so sent, places to which Jews were sent, a time line for when they were sent there, how they got there, evidence for their deportation to these places and for their being in them afterwards, and statements made by witnesses (by those who sent them, by people who observed them, or by those sent) about the transport of Jews from across Europe to these places and time spent there. Please provide information as well on Jews from the Soviet Union and what became of them. Finally, you will need to explain the roles of various camps said to be killing camps in these deportation and resettlement operations which you say occurred. This should be simple and quick, as it has been "asked and answered" and is "not rocket science."

 

[Clayton Moore]

That was not what I asked.

I didn't limit it to polish, german, dutch, russian or other jews. Just jews.

You asked

Then where have the jews gone in your opinion?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
They, just Jewish people, went to the same places when they left Europe that the German Jewish people went.

Where, in your opinion, did they go if they weren't singled out for extermination?

There was no attempt of Jewish extermination/genocide so no Jewish person was NOT singled out.

That was not what I asked.

I didn't limit it to polish, german, dutch, russian or other jews. Just jews.

If you are so concerned with respecting the Jewish people of that time why isn't your clarification

I didn't limit it to Polish, German, Dutch, Russian or other Jews. Just Jews.

 

[erwinl]

Asked and answered.

............

Let me refrase the question.
If the majority of the jews weren't sent to extermination camps, or killed in other ways (for example by the einsatzgruppen), then where, in your opinion are they?
It seems there was a disprortionate number of death among the jews. Why would that, in your opinion, be?

 

[LemmyCaution]

There was no attempt of Jewish extermination/genocide so no Jewish person was NOT singled out.

Are you aware of what a double negative is?

Be that as it may, your continued dodging is duly noted. You were not asked about the solar system, nor were you asked for unsupported generalizations. BSO, for example, asked you to provide a time line. erwinl asked you about specific groups of Jews and why, taken overall, Jews died in disproportionate numbers. And now I've asked you for a proper history, since you say this has all been dealt with.

 

[erwinl]

You asked



Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
They, just Jewish people, went to the same places when they left Europe that the German Jewish people went.





There was no attempt of Jewish extermination/genocide so no Jewish person was NOT singled out.







If you are so concerned with respecting the Jewish people of that time why isn't your clarification

I didn't limit it to Polish, German, Dutch, Russian or other Jews. Just Jews.

We posted at the same time, so I didn't see your answer untill after I had posted mine.

I asked where the jews went.
You made a distinction between german and non-german jews. I didn't.

But to return to your answer. Where did the german jews go? And where was it that the other jews joined them? In your opinion of course.

 

[Clayton Moore]

This is stating the obvious. Neither are they referenced or, as BSO noted, responsive. Even in this very post, you do just as he said, continue to repeat, like a mantra, something dealt with time and again, without responding to the points against your original assertion. Why indeed do you do these things? The shoddy, empty style of argument has no chance of convincing the unconvinced. And, to echo BSO, why do you link to sites with content like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion instead of sites which put content into relevant context? Are you not aware of the history of the Protocols, for example?

I think your Protocols said that

WE CONTROL THE PRESS

4. NOT A SINGLE ANNOUNCEMENT WILL REACH THE PUBLIC WITHOUT OUR CONTROL. Even now this is already being attained by us inasmuch as all news items are received by a few agencies, in whose offices they are focused from all parts of the world. These agencies will then be already entirely ours and will give publicity only to what we dictate to them.

Sounds like it's on the money in the USA as we post. Are you saying that Jews do not or should not control the MSM?

 

[LemmyCaution]

They, just Jewish people, went to the same places when they left Europe that the German Jewish people went.

You see, this is the sort of problem you introduce. First, a new reader, like me, is not aware of where you think "the German Jewish people went." Second, even someone who has been following this will want, as BSO requested, a time line, for a reader with a modicum of knowledge is aware that German Jews went to various places before the war and then, during the war, were taken to different places from these by the Germans. And that Polish Jews and Hungarian Jews (to choose just two countries) were by and large taken to different places during the war. For example, German Jews were not taken to Treblinka, but many Polish Jews were. So on the face of it, your statement is problematic. Third, you continue to ignore the Jews who lived in the Soviet Union. Where did they go?

Your answers are very unhelpful to anyone interested in the denier point of view, as they are vague and clearly bereft of information and consistency, let alone unhelpful for those interested in what happened.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I think your Protocols said that . . .

Sounds like it's on the money in the USA as we post. Are you saying that Jews do not or should not control the MSM?

I do not know what the MSM is.

Are you, then, raising concerns about members pointing out antisemitism but at the same time arguing that the Protocols (not mine, but apparently yours) offer an accurate description of the power and methods of Jews? To return to BSO's question, are you implying too that the Protocols are relevant, since you link to sites on which they appear when sourcing Holocaust material, to understanding arguments and points about the Holocaust?

 

[Clayton Moore]

We posted at the same time, so I didn't see your answer untill after I had posted mine.

I asked where the jews went.
You made a distinction between german and non-german jews. I didn't.

But to return to your answer. Where did the german jews go? And where was it that the other jews joined them? In your opinion of course.

I couldn't tell you. But I do understand they knew that Europe was not the place to be. I'm sure most of the rest of Europe's Jewish people also realized that Europe was not the place to be and simply left to the same places that accepted German Jewish people.


Of course you think European Jewish people, except the German Jewish people, were stupid and millions of them, over a three year period, just went to "death" camps without realizing the first 500,000 were exterminated.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I do not know what the MSM is.

Are you, then, raising concerns about members pointing out antisemitism but at the same time arguing that the Protocols (not mine, but apparently yours) offer an accurate description of the power and methods of Jews? To return to BSO's question, are you implying too that the Protocols are relevant, since you link to sites on which they appear when sourcing Holocaust material, to understanding arguments and points about the Holocaust?

main stream media

 

[LemmyCaution]

I couldn't tell you. But I do understand . . . I'm sure most . . .

Of course you think . . .

"Asked and answered"? And yet Clayton Moore cannot tell us, does understand, and is sure . . . without a scintilla of evidence -- and taking these positions, not only without producing evidence to support them, but also in the face of mountains of evidence rendering them silly: and further, he continues to dodge in his steadfast refusal (incapacity?) to confront the evidence we have for the extermination of the Jews with any counter evidence except his understanding (based on nothing) and his being sure (based on nothing) . . . and his persistent trotting out of old shibboleths like Churchill and Wiesel, totally unresponsive to the matters under discussion.

Which brings us to a burning question for little grey rabbit: How is Clayton Moore working out for you? Is he helping the cause?

 

[LemmyCaution]

main stream media

Ah, I am not so up on my acronyms. Of course Jews do not control the mainstream media. Your quotation from the Protocols indicates that you believe Jews do, in the US at least, according to your post. What else do you think Jews control? And what else in the Protocols accurately describes Jewish power and strategies?

You failed to respond, as you usually fail to respond to questions, to my asking of you whether you are implying that the Protocols are relevant to the discussion of the Holocaust.

 

[erwinl]

I couldn't tell you. But I do understand they knew that Europe was not the place to be. I'm sure most of the rest of Europe's Jewish people also realized that Europe was not the place to be and simply left to the same places that accepted German Jewish people.


Of course you think European Jewish people, except the German Jewish people, were stupid and millions of them, over a three year period, just went to "death" camps without realizing the first 500,000 were exterminated.

I don't understand.
If I understand you correctly all the missing jews left europe during the second world war, when all the borders were closed by germany?
What place or places had an influx of milions of jews and could their decendant be visited today? By which border did the german army let those jews leave?

And no, I don't think they were stupid when they let themselve be transported to the deathcamps.
In denial perhaps, not believing it really could be that bad. Or during the years in the getto's so conditioned with obeying the nazi's that they would let themselves be led to whatever the nazi's had in store for them.
Probably a combination of those.

t's not uncommon for large groups of people to led themselves be slaughtered by the enemy. Witness the men of Shrebrenica, the milions of dead in Cambodia, the Armenians during the Great War. In all these cases the majority let themselves be killed without fighting back. So I don't find it particulary strange that this also happened to the jews.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I don't understand.
If I understand you correctly all the missing jews left europe during the second world war, when all the borders were closed by germany?
What place or places had an influx of milions of jews and could their decendant be visited today? By which border did the german army let those jews leave?

And no, I don't think they were stupid when they let themselve be transported to the deathcamps.
In denial perhaps, not believing it really could be that bad. Or during the years in the getto's so conditioned with obeying the nazi's that they would let themselves be led to whatever the nazi's had in store for them.
Probably a combination of those.

t's not uncommon for large groups of people to led themselves be slaughtered by the enemy. Witness the men of Shrebrenica, the milions of dead in Cambodia, the Armenians during the Great War. In all these cases the majority let themselves be killed without fighting back. So I don't find it particulary strange that this also happened to the jews.

Can I draw your attention to this?

Conversation between Ambassador Kot and Deputy Commissar Vyshinsky on the religious organization of the Polish community in the USSR, the evacuation of Polish children from the USSR, and the release of MM Ehrlich and Alter

Kuibyshev, June 2, 1942

....I shall not conceal from you, Mr Ambassador, that contrary to the growth of religious feeling among Polish citizens, just stated by you, the interest in religious matters among our population is dwindling. Nobody wants to study for the priesthood; they prefer to become 'agronomists' and, recently, 'tank-drivers', so much needed by us. You spoke of letting Catholic priest from abroad come here. Having few priests here, the Orthodox Church would like to let Orthodox priests come to come to the Soviet Union......AS you see, Mr Ambassador, that would be the second group of difficulties. Now, you have mentioned also Jews, Mr. Ambassador. This I do not understand, as according to our position, which is well known to you, the Jews are Soviet citizens.

Ambassador: I suppose that no Soviet authority would go to the length of asserting that there are no Jews - Polish citizens.

Vyshinksy (ironically): Even if there are, it is not worth while to speak of them. The whole question presented to me by you, Mr Ambassador, demands review of many other problems (Smiling) 'One should not be in a hurry with such matters' (in Russian: 'toropitsia ne sleduyet') We shall give you an answer, of course, in due time.

...
Ambassador: There is, Mr. Chairman, one more question which has been raised several times by the Embassy. It concerns Ehrlich and Alter, both Polish citizens and Warsaw town-councillors who are kept in prison by you.'

Vyshinksy: It is quite impossible for me to discuss this question.

Ambassador: Mr. Chairman, please, do this for me and allow us to take these men away. I shall take full responsibility for their not engaging in anti-Soviet agitation abroad. In asking for this I am prompted by no toher reasons than the interest of the war in which we wage in common. Nobody will believe that those men were implicated in pro-Nazi activity [...]

Vyshinsky (does not look at the papers) : I understand your intentions and feelings, Mr Ambassador, but I cannot discuss the case of Ehrlich and Alter with you because, as you know, in the view of the Soviet Government those men are Soviet citizens.

Ambassador (jokingly): Do you wish, by any chance, to annex Warsaw after the war? They cannot be your citizens, after all, being Warsaw town councillors, and in your prison already when you proclaimed the annexation of Eastern Poland

Hope this helps.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I don't understand.
If I understand you correctly all the missing jews left europe during the second world war, when all the borders were closed by germany?
What place or places had an influx of milions of jews and could their decendant be visited today? By which border did the german army let those jews leave?

Add to this the curious, for deniers, order from Himmler in October 1941 preventing further emigration of Jews from the Reich . . .

Clayton Moore, it seems that none of us understand you if you will not provide more details, explanation, and evidence. Can you do that? Do you not do so because you can't or because you won't?