Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[000063]

Gunnar Paulsson, Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945, p167, Paulsson doesn't footnote this or the other points in the same paragraph (random sniper fire at people in the city, artillery and aircraft strikes on districts in which the insurgents were active, "liberal use of incendiaries" in neighborhoods, massacres, etc. Secret City is very well researched, meticulous even, and challenges, IMHO successfully, many well-known formulas regarding the Warsaw ghetto - e.g., density of residents per room - given the work as a whole, I am inclined not to doubt summaries like the one I pulled from, Paulsson being very careful and building credibility throughout his entire study.

Thanks. I'll see if my library has it later.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks. I'll see if my library has it later.

just checked and found Google books excerpts - here is the page I referred to (you have to scroll down as this takes you to the general search for "uprising," p167 being one of the items turned up . . . http://books.google.com/books?id=zhN3mYSNd2cC&q=uprising#v=snippet&q=uprising&f=false

 

[LemmyCaution]

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a word you were saying is true, I find it weird that you went from "only one piece of evidence" to "single piece of physical evidence". You can't even keep the goalposts still within the space of a single post.

good point, I'd still like to see the Bauer citation . . . and hear what Saggy has to say about Pressac's view of Henryk Tauber's testimony . . . not to mention of course Strawczynski . . . denier mode: move goalposts, clutch at single data point after single data point (AKA "bunny droppings") . . . distort the statements of historians . . .

 

[Saggy]

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a word you were saying is true, I find it weird that you went from "only one piece of evidence" to "single piece of physical evidence". You can't even keep the goalposts still within the space of a single post.

Let me make it real simple for you, there is not a single piece of evidence for the holohoax. There is not a single piece of physical evidence. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisioning. Not a single 'gas chamber'. There is false testimony, here's an example from Y. Wiernik quote above,

"One of them, Ivan, was tall, had and gentle eyes, but was, nevertheless, a sadist. He often attacked us while we worked and nailed our ears the wall."


And there is coerced testimony from Nazis on trial for their lives.

Testimony is evidence if it can be confirmed or corroborated by physical evidence. With no physical evidence the 'testimony' is just hot air.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Let me make it real simple for you, there is not a single piece of evidence for the holohoax. There is not a single piece of physical evidence. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisioning. Not a single 'gas chamber'. There is false testimony, here's an example from Y. Wiernik quote above,

"One of them, Ivan, was tall, had and gentle eyes, but was, nevertheless, a sadist. He often attacked us while we worked and nailed our ears the wall."


And there is coerced testimony from Nazis on trial for their lives.

Testimony is evidence if it can be confirmed or corroborated by physical evidence. With no physical evidence the 'testimony' is just hot air.

This is completely untrue, in both the law and in historical study. Flat out wrong -- made up by Saggy to serve Saggy and a few cranks, egomaniacs, and misfits. I can't say it more clearly: Saggy is wrong on all counts in this post.

In the law, for example, eyewitness testimony is permissible, without corroborating physical evidence especially if none is at hand, and a person charged with a crime can be convicted on the basis of witness testimony. Without physical evidence. Witness testimony indeed has many problems, and is susceptible to dishonesty as well as the vagaries of perception and memory, but forensic or scientific evidence is not without problem and is no means iron-clad (consider chain of custody, to take just one example, or dueling scientists, because scientific findings must be interpreted).

Here Saggy is making things up to suit himself -- and again retreats to the simple repetition that Wiernik is a liar, ignoring the onus on him to explain his opinion, not to mention his need to deal with other testimonies and other kinds of evidence. This has been, from Saggy, a pathetic and unpersuasive performance.

Also flat-out wrong is Saggy's notion that there is not a single piece of evidence for the genocide: there are mountains of it, in all forms (documents, perpetrator testimony, victim testimony, other witness testimony, forensics, and so on). (In these mountains of evidence are some cases of false testimony, also out and out errors and poor memory, contradictions - and what historians do is take meaningful volumes of different types of evidence, so readily available for the Holocaust, compare it, and make judgments and draw conclusions . . . ) All one need do to "discover" some of the existing evidence is read a couple of scholarly works on the genocide. Check those things called footnotes. Etc.

After Saggy's abysmal posts on this matter, a reasonable question for him to answer is where he learned law, and where he learned to do history . . .

 

[Lisa Simpson]

DO NOT bring in any most posts from other forums. We certainly have plenty to discuss here without bringing in posts from other authors who cannot respond. Any further posts will be deleted.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[000063]

Let me make it real simple for you, there is not a single piece of evidence for the holohoax. There is not a single piece of physical evidence. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisioning. Not a single 'gas chamber'. There is false testimony, here's an example from Y. Wiernik quote above,

"One of them, Ivan, was tall, had and gentle eyes, but was, nevertheless, a sadist. He often attacked us while we worked and nailed our ears the wall."

Well, congrats. You've found one possible liar. Now all you need to do is prove hundreds of thousands of other Holocaust survivors liars as well, and explain how they were all convinced to be complicit in the disappearances of their friends and family, and you may be getting somewhere. Then you only have to explain away testimony from Germans, Nazis and otherwise. Then the documents. I'm sure everyone else can contribute a few more items.

And there is coerced testimony from Nazis on trial for their lives.

Testimony is evidence if it can be confirmed or corroborated by physical evidence. With no physical evidence the 'testimony' is just hot air.

I seem to recall something about the Nazi documentation of their efforts. Also, in front of the whole world, did a single Nazi at the Nuremberg trials simply declare on the stand that the prosecution had attempted to coerce him? If you are on trial for your life, that would be exactly when you try some sort of desperate gambit.

 

[Wroclaw]

Let me make it real simple for you, there is not a single piece of evidence for the holohoax. There is not a single piece of physical evidence. Not a single body showing signs of gas poisioning. Not a single 'gas chamber'. There is false testimony, here's an example from Y. Wiernik quote above,

Wow, I can think of many pieces of physical evidence, as well as gas chamber victims who underwent autopsies. And I also know plenty of testimony that dovetails with it al.

"One of them, Ivan, was tall, had and gentle eyes, but was, nevertheless, a sadist. He often attacked us while we worked and nailed our ears the wall."

Two things here: (1) Injury to the ear is often not fatal; and (2) No where does he say it happened to the same person several times.

And there is coerced testimony from Nazis on trial for their lives.

Then presumably whenever you have someone on trial for capital murder (Laci Peterson's husband, e.g.), then he must be under duress.

And, of course, there was no death penalty in W. Germany in the 1960s.

Testimony is evidence if it can be confirmed or corroborated by physical evidence. With no physical evidence the 'testimony' is just hot air.

That's quite true. Unfortunately, there's plenty of physical evidence.

But you know that.

 

[Saggy]

(1) Injury to the ear is often not fatal;

I can quote an obvious holohoax lie, absurd on its face, and the Zionists will defend it. Regardless !

The Zionists' ethos regarding lying is a thing to behold. I don't know if it's an 'eastern' thing, common in the middle east, or is unique to the Jews. It's antithetical to western thinking, that I do know.

 

[Wroclaw]

Not that you're anti-Semitic or anything...

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

In local updates. Much the same. No news from the East.

Disposal was not extermination. People don't survive death camps. People don't survive multiple death camps.

Only 1052 (1.75%) people are known to have survived from among the Jews who were deported from the Netherlands to Auschwitz (Including 181 survivors of the 3540 men between the ages of 15 and 50 selected at Kosel).
18 (0.05%) of the Jews survived deportation from the Netherlands to Sobibor.

That's what Auschwitz surviving Doctor Elie Aron Cohen wrote in his book "De negentien treinen naar Sobibor". That's what Sobibor surviving printer Jules Schelvis wrote in his "Vernietigingskamp Sobibor". They and many others compiled the records that you prefer to over-simplify.

"En als iemand het dan nog niet wil geloven, vraag ik hem doodeenvoudig waar dan mijn moeder is en mijn vader , mijn broers en de tienduizenden anderen."
That's from surviving doctor Eduard de Wind's book "Eindstation Auschwitz" written in 1945. Dr. de Wind went to Westerbork voluntarily. To assist in providing medical care for the inmates. Did you read about how he ended up on a deportation train?

Not all the deported people are known by name or place of birth but the vast majority is registered with such data. One of the exceptions. A mentally ill woman listed among the deported on the April 20, 1943 train to Sobibor, today still only known as "Eine Frau, Mietje, Geisteskrank" from that entry. Did the merciful nazis lose her case file for them not to know her last name and date of birth? Was her doctor with her on the train? Why were such mentally ill people on the train again? Were they going to build roads? Warm beds awaiting them at Sobibor? What kind of medical facilities could people like Dr. Tobias Soubice (Sobibor October 15, 1943) or Dr. Benjamin Nink (Unknown location November 30, 1943) offer people like "Mietje" on arrival?

The vast majority of the patients and medical staff of Apeldoornse Bos appear to have fallen of the charts at the other end as well. "A fine example of National Socialist health care" was the sarcastic reaction from Medisch Contact after Aus der Fuenten and his orderlies assisted in the speedy clearance of the facilities and arranged transportation for the patients. What was the reason why they couldn't just stay where they were, again, at that purpose built institution? The NSB had already publicly complained about the scandalously pleasant way the mentally ill were treated in the Netherlands, in deadly seriousness. Did they envision what would happen next?

In the NSB paper "Volk en Vaderland" from July 1942 these nazi collaborating publishers wrote that deportations had commenced and that they expected that deportations could be concluded by the first of June 1943. It was noted by Edwin Klijn that these collaborators were well informed about the scope of the deportations and he adds that these sources give indications about people's knowledge about the persecution of the Jews at that time.

600 registered Jewish doctors in the Netherlands. 400 survive. 200 perish. How many of their mentally ill patients returned from the East?

We know the journey of the survivors. (Binnen de Poorten, Verklaringen ... ) You're indeed not telling us anything we don't already know. In fact I can get my own copy of Butz to get the full serving of the denial you're feeding us piece-meal. Not a very nutritious meal even when digested in one chunk. Which, in a way, brings us back to Raul Hilberg and Dr. Elie Aron Cohen,
His mother:
Jetje Cohen-Behr, Groningen, 26 November 1883 - Auschwitz, December 3, 1942
His father:
Aron Cohen, Groningen October 27, 1879 - Auschwitz December 3, 1942
His sister:
Bertha Cohen-Cohen, Groningen, August 14, 1914 - Auschwitz September 3, 1942
His mother in law
Klaartje van der Woude-de Vries, Groningen June 22, 1878 - Auschwitz September 15, 1943
Father in Law:
Jacob Joachim Joseph van der Woude Leeuwarden May 9, 1872 - Auschwitz September 15, 1943
His wife
Aaltje Cohen-van der Woude, Groningen, October 8, 1912 - Auschwitz September 16, 1943
and their son
Aron Elie Cohen, Aduard, June 20, 1939 - Auschwitz, September, 16, 1943

We know some of these people were with him when he left Westerbork. We know they were no longer with him when he went from Auschwitz to Mauthausen nor when he continued his slow repatriation via Melk back to the Netherlands. As Butz wrote "He never saw these family members again."
If all the historians are wrong and you're right ... Where did they go? Tell us something we don't know. Why isn't Butz able to inform his readers about the fate of E.A. Cohen's relatives? What does Butz add to what E.A. Cohen et al already told us in considerably more detail?

We know that Dr. E.A. Cohen was arrested for independently trying to resettle himself to Sweden (Too far north? Not far enough East?). Butz called it "attempted to leave the Netherlands without authority" so we know that nazis frowned upon travel arrangements that didn't include some of their tour guides. They left after the February 10, 1942 Rademacher notification to the Bielefeld branch of the nazi travel agency and therefore we know Madagascar wasn't their final destination.

I know I called him Elias Alex Cohen before but that's because I mixed him up with one of his few surviving relatives (Elias Isak Alex Cohen: Sobibor, Maidanek, Skarzisko-Kamienna, Tjentochow, Buchenwald, Schlieben, Theresienstadt according to 1946 records - cited by a.o. L. de Jong and J. Schelvis). Their initials are -almost- the same so I'm sure any phone book searches weren't hampered by my unfortunate temporary mix up any more than a stenographer's transcript prevents people from finding Josef Buhle after reading Professor Browning's comments from the Lipstandt defense of history. Was I right in my deduction, ClaytonMoore? Kageki decided not to offer his correction or confirmation.

Dr. E.A. Cohen passed away in Arnhem in 1993 but perhaps you can locate his first son, A.E. Cohen? Or his cousin Abraham. His father, Elias Isak Alex Cohen, returned to the Netherlands. In 1947 he lived Cortingstraat 2 in Groningen for a while. Do you know what happened to his wife? Dr. de Jong references his statement as well in Encounter but leaves out that Dhr, Cohen would have preferred not to have been selected. In hindsight he said that he regrets surviving. Because almost his entire family was murdered he would have preferred to joint them. Can you arrange for a reunification of his relatives?

If not listed in the Dutch phone books they might have an unregistered land line, or only a mobile phone or … there might be some other "reasonable" alternative explanation for the absence from public records of certain Cohens residing undetected in the Netherlands. "The difference easily explained by immigration to South Africa, Americas and the UK." as was suggested by another Holocaust denier who -although fond of reviving old threads and dead Jews- has remained silent on the request for current and specific addresses of these unaccounted for survivors ever since. Miami beach was offered in an other thread here but when pressed for specifics the white noise faded.

Robert Cohen (another well known Auschwitz survivor, a photo of his arm with camp tattoo can be seen on his website) had a brother Freddy Cohen who also remains listed among the dead. Including on his personal card in the archives of the city of Amsterdam where it says: "Overleden te: Sobibor Op: 2 Apr. 43 Akte No.: A6 fol. 33v. This to the detriment of Iwan Demjanjuk, now convicted of being an accomplice in his murder. Can you really not see how finding them is in your own interest as well as theirs?

So, tell me, where did all these Cohens live who never returned to the Netherlands? Do you share the idea of MaGZ and LGR … South Afrika? Miami Beach? Can you give me their addresses eventhough they can't - in spite of trying furiously to find them when they think no one is looking?

I know with absolute certainty that you can't answer. I know with absolute certainty that Denierbud offered nothing new. It is a load of bollocks. A re-packaging in a new format of the same old canards that failed to change the history books. Not because people like me aren't skeptical enough but because his conclusions don't follow from the evidence. They didn't when Butz put them in print the first time and they didn't when Denierbud got the ugly voice to blurt it out as narration to a series of videos. Edits won't do you any good either.

 

[Saggy]

Not that you're anti-Semitic or anything...

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

 

[TSR]

I can quote an obvious holohoax lie, absurd on its face, and the Zionists will defend it.

.
Except that it is only "obvious" to you, unless you are going to claim that Zionists controlled 1600's Maryland -- in 1648 in Maryland, John Goneere, convicted of perjury, was "nayled by both eares to the pillory 3 nailes in each eare and the nailes to be slitt out, and whipped 20 good lashes."

So obviously, this mode of punishment was not unheard of nor fatal.

And are you still using "zionist" to avoid saying "Jews" as have admitted elsewhere to doing? Do you truly feel this fools anyone?
.

 

[Wroclaw]

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

How's that been working out for the world?

 

[MG1962]

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

And they used to feed Christians to lions. Think we should reintroduce that practice as well?

 

[TSR]

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

.
Which, of course, explains that whole "People of the Book" concept...
.

 

[Bluespaceoddity]

.
Except that it is only "obvious" to you, unless you are going to claim that Zionists controlled 1600's Maryland -- in 1648 in Maryland, John Goneere, convicted of perjury, was "nayled by both eares to the pillory 3 nailes in each eare and the nailes to be slitt out, and whipped 20 good lashes."

So obviously, this mode of punishment was not unheard of nor fatal.

Yup, he had that one covered ...

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

Which is code for the whole world was controlled by Zionists ... or something.

Nice one on the holonails.

 

[000063]

I can quote an obvious holohoax lie, absurd on its face, and the Zionists will defend it. Regardless !

The Zionists' ethos regarding lying is a thing to behold. I don't know if it's an 'eastern' thing, common in the middle east, or is unique to the Jews. It's antithetical to western thinking, that I do know.

It is amazing how much shorter Wroclaw's posts get when you respond to them.

The whole world has been anti-Semitic for 3000 years.

"You're out of order! You're all out of order! This whole court is outta order!"

 

[Clayton Moore]

Not that you're anti-Semitic or anything...

Ah, the anti-Semitic card.

 

[Wroclaw]

Ah, the anti-Semitic card.

I only play it when it's called for. Trust me. And you know NOTHING about me.

But really, we should have lunch.