Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Wroclaw]

Not that I know of. I've been asleep about 1/3 of my life and married, you tell me.

I've been drawn down on by gang members in West Philly. Since I'm here I doubt if I was in any sights for a head shot in the service.

You live in Philadelphia? We simply must have lunch...

 

[dafydd]

So you're saying they were stupid and easily duped?

No. Try thinking for a change. Or maybe you are thinking and merely trolling. It's hard to tell.

 

[dafydd]

The important point here is that deniers tend to operate from a cluster of prejudices and fairly similar ideological preoccupations; none of them does serious historical research -- and many of the chimps aren't even aware of the historical work that's been done. The motivation of deniers isn't reconstruction of the past--or even, as they claim, revision of the history--but putting across a political-ideological viewpoint and message. That message is so repulsive, and poorly argued and baseless, that their efforts consign them to the far margins of discourse about these matters.

But they all send good vibes and love to the Jewish people!!

 

[Clayton Moore]

I find it incredibly dangerous to accuse people of anti-Semitism when the charge is not warranted, and I believe this danger occurs because then Jews run the risk of being "the boy who cried wolf," i.e., if and when real anti-Semitism comes down the pike, non-Jews will be less likely to believe Jews making that charge because they will have made it too often in the past when it had not been warranted. One thing that history has made abundantly clear is that we as Jews are at the mercy of non-Jews for our survival everywhere except Israel, and arguably there as well (e.g., U.S. military aid).

But I digress: I think, Clayton, it's important for you to recognize two facts: (1) There are exceedingly few people who deny the Holocaust who don't hate Jews. I've been involved in this "debate" for over fifteen years, and I can count on one hand the number of people I've encountered on your side who don't harbor a real and genuine hatred of Jews. This is the rule and NOT the exception. To his minor credit, Bradley Smith has been rather open on this issue. See:

http://www.codoh.com/newsite/articles/bradleysmith/anews04.html

(2) The second issue for you to bear in mind is that, when you state that you don't believe that white Europeans are capable of committing genocide, then you're painting yourself into a bit of a racist corner, and therefore even if you were not a Jew-hater, it's far more likely that people will assume you are.

I'm sorry, you can't get groups of people, 20th century Christian Europeans, to kill babies and children in a fixed location day after day in secret. That's what the Holocaust mythologians insist happened. Include women and men, to a total of 6 million that's what the Holocaust mythologians insist happened.

Always trying to put people down. That's what you do.

And you distort what was said to do it.

You said white Europeans so that it seemed that I thought blacks would.

 

[LemmyCaution]

And the issue with Clayton Moore is that once again, this time with his silly post

Wow! You don't pull any punches. I don't know how any of those quotes you said you were going to post could be any worse than what you just wrote about Jewish people.

he confirms that the main strategy of deniers is to pretend not to understand the most basic points, whether they be from commentary, documents, forensics, etc.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
The important point here is that deniers tend to operate from a cluster of prejudices and fairly similar ideological preoccupations; none of them does serious historical research -- and many of the chimps aren't even aware of the historical work that's been done. The motivation of deniers isn't reconstruction of the past--or even, as they claim, revision of the history--but putting across a political-ideological viewpoint and message. That message is so repulsive, and poorly argued and baseless, that their efforts consign them to the far margins of discourse about these matters.

My motivation and the motivation of most revisionists is to free history from the Holocaust fiction and to unbesmirch the Germans from a fictional past and allow them closure from the horrors charged to them and the horrors set upon them.

Have you Holocaust myth believers noticed that revisionists never talk about any punishment for the lies and the German suffering the lies caused?

 

[Clayton Moore]

And the issue with Clayton Moore is that once again, this time with his silly post he confirms that the main strategy of deniers is to pretend not to understand the most basic points, whether they be from commentary, documents, forensics, etc.

I know that you quoted a bunch of times without noting any source.

 

[dafydd]

My motivation and the motivation of most revisionists is to free history from the Holocaust fiction and to unbesmirch the Germans from a fictional past and allow them closure from the horrors charged to them and the horrors set upon them.

Have you Holocaust myth believers noticed that revisionists never talk about any punishment for the lies and the German suffering the lies caused?

There are and were no lies. All the lies are on your side. Why do you hate Jews? Is it because of this?

 

[SpitfireIX]

Wow! You don't pull any punches. I don't know how any of those quotes you said you were going to post could be any worse than what you just wrote about Jewish people.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I know that you quoted a bunch of times without noting any source.

I noted that the quotations came from deniers' posts on Rodoh. I also linked to one post that used graphics in a weak and sick attempt at humor. Go there and see for yourself.

Further, as to your claim that deniers never talk about punishing non-deniers, on Rodoh one of those quoted -- the same nitwit wishing Jared Loughner had finished the job, so to speak -- has threatened non-deniers with his blethering about the Day of the Rope when, he imagines, his lot are in a position to carry out such threats.

The lying and distortions, failure to give evidence-based responses, and empty claims advanced in place of discourse give your game away, as having nothing whatsoever to do with revising and enriching the historical narrative. And this is before we get to the statements I quoted, and which pepper Rodoh, which reveal the malice and agenda of your ilk.

 

[Wroclaw]

Always trying to put people down. That's what you do.

And you distort what was said to do it.

You said white Europeans so that it seemed that I thought blacks would.

If you don't mean "white," then what exactly do you mean by "European"?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I know that you quoted a bunch of times without noting any source.

Then why did your reply insinuate that the statements were my own? Because . . . {see SpitfireIX's explanation}

 

[LemmyCaution]

There are and were no lies. All the lies are on your side. Why do you hate Jews? Is it because of this?
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/234094e07c72f8619d.gif[/qimg]

A joke told during the war years riffed on the Nazi racial ideology, saying that the racial ideal, the perfect Aryan, should be blonde like Hitler, tall like Goebbels, and in fit physical condition like Goering.

 

[kageki]

There are and were no lies. All the lies are on your side. Why do you hate Jews? Is it because of this?

There are tons of lies told by survivors. Even if many could be considered "exaggeration" or "mistakes", you are still left with blatant lies like color-coded smoke and escaping from gas chambers although it's not coming from Jews only.

 

[kageki]

I noted that the quotations came from deniers' posts on Rodoh. I also linked to one post that used graphics in a weak and sick attempt at humor. Go there and see for yourself.

Further, as to your claim that deniers never talk about punishing non-deniers, on Rodoh one of those quoted -- the same nitwit wishing Jared Loughner had finished the job, so to speak -- has threatened non-deniers with his blethering about the Day of the Rope when, he imagines, his lot are in a position to carry out such threats.

The lying and distortions, failure to give evidence-based responses, and empty claims advanced in place of discourse give your game away, as having nothing whatsoever to do with revising and enriching the historical narrative. And this is before we get to the statements I quoted, and which pepper Rodoh, which reveal the malice and agenda of your ilk.

Poosh is still a major troll on that forum.

Those "graphics" are cartoons probably made by Robert Crumb and he's drawn black people as well. You should read about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Crumb

 

[LemmyCaution]

Poosh is still a major troll on that forum.

Those "graphics" are cartoons probably made by Robert Crumb and he's drawn black people as well. You should read about him:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Crumb

I am well familiar with R. Crumb from the time of Head and Zap Comix. As to the faces, they come from a collection called "Kike Faces" posted at VNN with antisemitic jokes mixed in IIRC.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comments

No comment on the antisemitic and pro-Nazi commentary posted by Rodoh denier regulars whom I quoted, I see.

Pathetic.

 

[dafydd]

There are tons of lies told by survivors. Even if many could be considered "exaggeration" or "mistakes", you are still left with blatant lies like color-coded smoke and escaping from gas chambers although it's not coming from Jews only.

Heil Hitler.

 

[Saggy]

Then it does not actually say it is a reconstruction, does it?

The hoax was revealed by David Cole in the early 90s. Here is what van Pelt had to say in his book on the subject .....

"When Auschwitz was transformed into a museum after the war, the decision was taken to concentrate the history of the whole complex into one of its component parts. The infamous crematoria where the mass murders had taken place lay in ruins in Birkenau, two miles away. The committee felt that a crematorium was required at the end of the memorial journey, and crematorium I was reconstructed to speak for the history of the incinerators at Birkenau. This program of usurpation was rather detailed. A chimney, the ultimate symbol of Birkenau, was re-created; four hatched openings in the roof, as if for pouring Zyklon B into the gas chamber below, were installed, and two of the three furnaces were rebuilt using original parts. There are no signs to explain these restitutions, they were not marked at the time, and the guides remain silent about it when they take visitors through this building that is presumed by the tourist to be the place where it happened."

You can see just that in the Cole video.

Regardless of van Pelt's comments the hoax gas chamber is perfectly absurd, with unsealed wooden office doors and a large plate glass window. The observation that persons can be shown this room and told it was a homicidal gas chamber and believe it is a profound comment on human stupidity and gullibility

 

[TSR]

There are tons of lies told by survivors. Even if many could be considered "exaggeration" or "mistakes", you are still left with blatant lies like color-coded smoke and escaping from gas chambers although it's not coming from Jews only.

.
Any of them come from real historians -- you know, the ones that research and write about actual historical events, having learned (by virtue of their training and experience) that not all stories are of equal historical value?

Or does the fact that many people *still* believe that George Washington chopped down that cherry tree and tossed a silver dollar across the Potomac (neither of which are true) mean that there never was a first President of the United States?
.

 

[TSR]

Here is what van Pelt had to say in his book on the subject .....

"... crematorium I was reconstructed to speak for the history of the incinerators at Birkenau. This program of usurpation was rather detailed. A chimney, the ultimate symbol of Birkenau, was re-created; four hatched openings in the roof, as if for pouring Zyklon B into the gas chamber below, were installed, and two of the three furnaces were rebuilt using original parts. There are no signs to explain these restitutions, they were not marked at the time, and the guides remain silent about it when they take visitors through this building that is presumed by the tourist to be the place where it happened."

.
And in context, van Pelt what speaking of explaining "the program of usurpation" -- that is, the specific details of *how* the reconstruction proceeded and what exactly was restored.

This information was and is available to those with an interest in the details, in the same way that the specific details of restoration of other historical sites are not generally discussed during the guided tour of those buildings -- and the details are equally available (which, given that this usually involves reading a book or two, we realize means you haven't bothered for Auschwitz or any other historical building).
.