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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Are you saying it wouldn't have become obvious? Let's stick with the "Holocaust."


I'm saying it's not obvious at all, and I offer as counterexamples all of the US states that have used the gas chamber as an execution method. Let's take a look at the two largest: California, which executed 196 condemned prisoners by lethal gas between 1938 and 1993, and North Carolina, which executed 193 between 1936 and 1998. Note that both states eventually replaced gas with lethal injection. How is it that these two states never adopted vacuum asphyxiation, if its advantages were so obvious in the 1940s? Were their legislators less concerned with the safety of the executioners than the Nazis were? Were they less concerned with saving money than the Nazis were?
 
Allow me to expand on my original question. During your search and evaluation, hypothetically what sort of evidence (in your opinion) would cause you to take a step back and think "Wow... that's pretty damning"? Perhaps a verified document in the vein of the Hofle telegram, but referring to killings rather than arrivals.

There are plenty of extremely damning documents out there and plenty of genuine documents also.

Trouble is the documents that are extremely damning are not genuine, and the documents that are genuine are not extremely damning. The Hoefle telegram falls into the first class.

There is an idiot denier called Greg Gerdes who did make one excellent point. In his "challenge" about if anyone can find mass graves in Treblinka. Allow me to quote him
c) "One thing you must keep in mind if applying to the reward is, the evidence that is published in "skeptic" magazine will be judged not only on what it includes, but also on what it excludes. My advice to you is, strive for complete and irrefutable documentation and total transparency. If you "do it right," there will be nothing for you to worry about; so do it right. Over engineer your submittal. Document your findings so thoroughly that the NAFH would be foolish to deny your claim to the reward money. Document your discovery as if you wanted to "prove to the world" once and for all that there really were holocausts within the holocaust at the Reinhardt camps. Document it so utterly well that it simply cannot be denied, using any and every modern forensic science / crime scene investigation tool / technique that you can possibly think of. Strive to cover every base, cross every T and dot every I. Avoid any and all situations that would call into question the legitimacy of your submittal / investigation. (I.e. - don't pull another Shermer.) Avoid like the plague any and all situations that could even hint at fraud. Document it better than the Germans documented the Katyn holocaust. Be as transparent with your investigation as the Germans were while investigating the Katyn holocaust. Invite more people from around the world to witness your investigation that the Germans did while investigating the Katyn holocaust.

Document it as if there is a billion dollars on the line rather than just $100,000.00."

Leaving aside the slight problem that NAFH and its prize money probably don't exist, something like that might convince me of the Hoax as regards the AR camps.
 
There are plenty of extremely damning documents out there and plenty of genuine documents also.

Trouble is the documents that are extremely damning are not genuine, and the documents that are genuine are not extremely damning
...<snip>...


Please show every document that is damning is 'not genuine'. Remember, assertions are not evidence. Oh, and, just as a reminder:

I don't really mind one way or the other. But on a personal note, it will be a very sad day indeed when I can't get people online hopping mad by saying "The Illuminati did it" or tell them about the One True Crematorium at Birkenau

Well, I believe I can get people hopping mad.
 
Show me a document you think is damning and I will tell you if it is genuine or not.

Well why dont you start with the evidence log for the Nuremberg trials - then explain what expertise you have to claim each individual document is faked and how you know it is faked
 
Well why dont you start with the evidence log for the Nuremberg trials - then explain what expertise you have to claim each individual document is faked and how you know it is faked

I have no doubt the evidence log is genuine. I thought we were talking about German documents here?
 
Please show every document that is damning is 'not genuine'. Remember, assertions are not evidence. Oh, and, just as a reminder:

Show me a document you think is damning and I will tell you if it is genuine or not.



That's not what I asked. I asked for evidence that the documents aren't genuine. Just saying that they are not does not make it so.
 

:)

Look what you have made me done, you have reduced me to emoticons.

Let me amend that statement, any document except OSR 24. Like the cobra I am waiting for the exact right moment to strike on that baby.

Can I say though, that I will immediately accept as genuine any OSR that mentions the Great Provocation reprisals of early September 1941. Should you be able to find one.....
 
:)

Look what you have made me done, you have reduced me to emoticons.

Let me amend that statement, any document except OSR 24. Like the cobra I am waiting for the exact right moment to strike on that baby.
And, unlike Mr Berg, I am not holding my breath for this. Or for you to give a straight answer to The Red Worm. Or for you to explain what an evidence log not in German has to do with documents in German. And so on.
 
:)

Look what you have made me done, you have reduced me to emoticons.

No, you've been trolling for quite some time, as evidenced by:

I don't really mind one way or the other. But on a personal note, it will be a very sad day indeed when I can't get people online hopping mad by saying "The Illuminati did it" or tell them about the One True Crematorium at Birkenau

Well, I believe I can get people hopping mad.

This is just another, slightly different method of trolling, as is this:

Let me amend that statement, any document except OSR 24. Like the cobra I am waiting for the exact right moment to strike on that baby.

Can I say though, that I will immediately accept as genuine any OSR that mentions the Great Provocation reprisals of early September 1941. Should you be able to find one.....


So, can you demonstrate, with actual evidence, how OSR 24 is 'not genuine'?
 
Trouble is the documents that are extremely damning are not genuine, and the documents that are genuine are not extremely damning. The Hoefle telegram falls into the first class.

He who alleges must prove. Prove the Höfle telegram is not genuine.
 
No, you've been trolling for quite some time, as evidenced by:





This is just another, slightly different method of trolling, as is this:




So, can you demonstrate, with actual evidence, how OSR 24 is 'not genuine'?

You mean this?

Before leaving, the Bolsheviks, together with the Jews, murdered several Ukrainians; as an excuse, they used the attempted Ukrainian uprising of June 25, 1941, which tried to free their prisoners.

According to reliable information, about 20,000 Ukrainians have disappeared from Lvov, 80% of them belonging to the intelligentsia

The prisons in Lvov were crammed with the bodies of murdered Ukrainians. According to a moderate estimate, in Lvov alone 3-4,000 persons were either killed or deported.

In Dobromil, 82 dead bodies were found, 4 of them Jews. The latter were former Bolshevik informers who had been killed because of their complicity in this act. Near Dobromil an obsolete salt mine pit was discovered. It was completely filled in with dead bodies. In the immediate neighborhood, there is a 6 x 15m mass grave. The number of those murdered in the Dobromil area is estimated to be approximately several hundred.

In Sambor on June 26, 1941, about 400 Ukrainians were shot by the Bolsheviks. An additional 120 persons were murdered on June 27, 1941. The remaining prisoners succeeded in overpowering the Soviet guards, and fled. Concerning their numbers it should be noted that Sambor has a total of 26,000 inhabitants, among them 12,000 Poles, 10,000 Jews, and 4,000 Ukrainians.

As early as 1939, a larger number of Ukrainians was shot, and 1,500 Ukrainians as well as 500 poles were deported to the east.

Russians and Jews committed these murders in very cruel ways. Bestial mutilations were daily occurrences. Breasts of women and genitals of men were cut off. Jews have also nailed children to the wall and then murdered them. Killing was carried out by shots in the back of the neck. Hand grenades were frequently used for these murders.

In Dobromil, women and men were killed with blows by a hammer used to stun cattle before slaughter.

In many cases, the prisoners must have been tortured cruelly; bones were broken, etc. In Sambor, the prisoners were gagged and thus prevented from screaming during torture and murder. The Jews, some of whom also held official positions, in addition to their economic supremacy, and who served in the entire Bolshevik police, were always partners in these atrocities.

Finally, it was established that seven [German] pilots who had been captured were murdered. Three of them were found in a Russian military hospital where they had been murdered in bed by shots in the abdomen.

It looks all in order to me.
 
He who alleges must prove. Prove the Höfle telegram is not genuine.
I don't have to prove it because the question was what document would convince me. As this is a subjunctive issue, I simply have to have reasonable grounds for not accepting it as genuine rather than prove it is fake.

Fortunately the grounds are not hard to find.

1. It was not mentioned in Hinksley's majestic 4 volume survey of British Intelligence in 1980 - despite many other incriminating decodes being discussed.

2. The 14 week period reporting period suspiciously falls on the last day of the year - to allow an exact matching with the Korherr report.

3. The Korherr report includes separate categories for Polish Jews and Western European Jews - many of the later who supposedly went through AR camps - eg a number of transports from Thereseinstadt and transports to Izbica that are supposed to have been shipped straight on to Sobibor. This would represent a large and unacceptable measure of double counting.

4. There is no oral testimony of 12 000 being liquidated at Majdanek during the last 14 days of 1942. Considering the large number of survivors from Majdanek this is surprising. Hoaxsters try to hand wave this away as perhaps lots of small liquidations were taking place in outer camps. But provide no evidence to support this claim.

5. There is a documented train freeze for deportations over this fourteen days to accommodate Wehrmacht leave. Although there does exist a request for a limited relaxation of this freeze - specifically 3 trains. The context of this request makes clear it was for moving Winterhilfe materials not deportations. There is no evidence to show this request was granted.

6. A number of survivors from Belzec testify to it being a work camp only and not an AR camp. Aside from Rudolf Reder there is no survivor testimony of Belzec as an AR camp - and Reder can be shown to be given testimony explicitly not consistent with alleged engine exhaust gassings. Tellingly, West German justice failed to secure any convictions in relation to Belzec. There exists decodes that refer to Belzec specifically as a work camp. Finally Order Police War Diaries show that at least two ghettos that are supposed to have been deported to Belzec, instead went to two different, hitherto unheard of locations.

Off the top of my head, that explains why subjectively I don't find the Hoefle telegram in anyway convincing.
 
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. It was not mentioned in Hinksley's majestic 4 volume survey of British Intelligence in 1980 - despite many other incriminating decodes being discussed.

Can you provide a proper citation for this book/books. If the book was published in 1980 I will have to check something.

The Höfle Telegram is a document discovered in 2000 among recently declassified World War II materials from the Public Record Office in Kew, England.
 
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Can you provide a proper citation for this book/books. If the book was published in 1980 I will have to check something.

The Höfle Telegram is a document discovered in 2000 among recently declassified World War II materials from the Public Record Office in Kew, England.

I see you can't be up with the historiography of this matter if you hadn't heard of old Harry

Volume 1: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, F. H. Hinsley with E. E. Thomas, C. F. G. Ransome and R. C. Knight, (1979, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630933 4
Volume 2: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, F. H. Hinsley with E. E. Thomas, C. F. G. Ransome and R. C. Knight, (1981, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630934 2
Volume 3, Part 1: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, F. H. Hinsley with E. E. Thomas, C. F. G. Ransome and R. C. Knight, (1984, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630935 0
Volume 3, Part 2: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, F. H. Hinsley with E. E. Thomas, C. A. G. Simkins, and C. F. G. Ransom, (1988, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630940 7
Includes Bibliography (pages 961-974), and The Polish, French and British Contributions to the Breaking of the Enigma; a Revised Account (Appendix 30, pages 945-959).
Volume 4: Security and Counter-Intelligence, F. H. Hinsley and C. A. G. Simkins, (1990, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630952 0
Abridged Version, F. H. Hinsley, (1993, HMSO) ISBN 0 11 630956 3 (& 1993, Cambridge University Press) ISBN 0 521 44304 0

As Harry was a former Bletchley worker he was given full access to all classified material - in fact when he wrote his majestic, authoritative tomes none of it had been declassified.

I concede it is possible he might have missed it in the raw decodes, but this Aktion Reinhardt decode was also - supposedly - discussed in the English language intelligence monthly summaries. Which he surely must have read.
 
1. It was not mentioned in Hinksley's majestic 4 volume survey of British Intelligence in 1980 - despite many other incriminating decodes being discussed.

It hadn't been declassified yet, of course, unless you can cite documents from Hinksley's book that were still classified in 1980.

Can you? Yes or no?

2. The 14 week period reporting period suspiciously falls on the last day of the year - to allow an exact matching with the Korherr report.

That's because Korherr likely worked off the same sources.

Your analogy would be along the lines of: "Gee, Matthew and Luke both mention how this Jesus guy was born in Bethlehem but lived in Nazareth. Must be a conspiracy!"

Yeah. Or they worked off the same source. Which, they did. A source called "Mark."

3. The Korherr report includes separate categories for Polish Jews and Western European Jews - many of the later who supposedly went through AR camps - eg a number of transports from Thereseinstadt and transports to Izbica that are supposed to have been shipped straight on to Sobibor. This would represent a large and unacceptable measure of double counting.

Nice try. You're counting "Western Europe" together with the Reich. Can't do that. The Reich, including Bohemia & Moravia, is counted separately also.

4. There is no oral testimony of 12 000 being liquidated at Majdanek during the last 14 days of 1942. Considering the large number of survivors from Majdanek this is surprising. Hoaxsters try to hand wave this away as perhaps lots of small liquidations were taking place in outer camps. But provide no evidence to support this claim.

I don't believe you, for one thing, that no oral testimony exists on this. Let's assume, for the moment, that you're telling the truth. Why would this matter to people like you, who are always so quick to tell us how unreliable eyewitness testimony is.

5. There is a documented train freeze for deportations over this fourteen days to accommodate Wehrmacht leave. Although there does exist a request for a limited relaxation of this freeze - specifically 3 trains. The context of this request makes clear it was for moving Winterhilfe materials not deportations. There is no evidence to show this request was granted.

You have to cite such things. Your allegations of them are worthless.

Again, assuming you're correct, the train freeze would only apply to trains running west from the Lublin district, would it not?

6. A number of survivors from Belzec testify to it being a work camp only and not an AR camp.

A number, eh? Two is "a number"?

Aside from Rudolf Reder there is no survivor testimony of Belzec as an AR camp

Tell everyone here what happened to the other man who survived Belzec, Bunny.

Do it now. Your failure to do so will only underscore your dishonesty.

and Reder can be shown to be given testimony explicitly not consistent with alleged engine exhaust gassings.

Well, we can discuss this in detail if you'd like, as your merely alleging this proves nothing.

Tellingly, West German justice failed to secure any convictions in relation to Belzec.

Bunny, please tell everyone here who Josef Oberhauser was and why I'm asking you this. Do this now also.

Or you can point us to the relevant footage in Shoah. Your choice.

There exists decodes that refer to Belzec specifically as a work camp. Finally Order Police War Diaries show that at least two ghettos that are supposed to have been deported to Belzec, instead went to two different, hitherto unheard of locations.

Again: You're going to need to cite things. I have seen you try your sleight-of-hand with names of camps, so I'm unconvinced.

Off the top of my head, that explains why subjectively I don't find the Hoefle telegram in anyway convincing.

So you tell some great big lies, say some more completely unsubstantiated things, and we should believe you?

You know, despite your desire to appear intellectual, you're as much a filthy liar as the rest of the denier crowd.
 
As Harry was a former Bletchley worker he was given full access to all classified material - in fact when he wrote his majestic, authoritative tomes none of it had been declassified.

Great, then I assume you have some examples of items in his books that, at the time of their publication, had not been declassified, right?

Because if you do, then we can discuss why you would continue to keep classified a document whose contents had just been published for the world to see, in the world's most widely spoken language to boot.

And if you don't, well, then your point is dead.
 
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