Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[MG1962]

This would take it below 5 million. I don't know what figures to go by frankly.

And why the obsession with the exact numbers. Does 4.9 million make it any better for you - Is 4.8 million defendable in some perverse way. Or 4.7 million put a smile on your face. Or 2 million make you want to skip out and buy icecream. Or is it the fact we dont have exact number right down to the nth degree somehow invalidates all those who died to satisfy a maniacs dream.

Why was it Goering said in a moment of reflection, it was our racial policy that got us here (Nuremberg)

 

[little grey rabbit]

Why was it Goering said in a moment of reflection, it was our racial policy that got us here (Nuremberg)

Goering was almost certainly saying that their racial policy to exclude Jews meant that in response Jews did their upmost to stir up hatred against them in the USSR, USA, Britain and France and were utilising their penetration into those societies to mobilises their military might against Germany.

Goering was very clear and specific in rejecting gas chambers at Auschwitz as fantasy. There is no doubt on that point.

Down in the dock, Goering, who was feeling very ill at ease because of the developments in the trial and the coolness shown by many of the defendants, started to make conversation, but nobody was paying much attention. Finally, nervous little Sauckel went over to him and asked him if he thought it was really true that 2.5 million Jews had been exterminated at Auschwitz.
“No, no – of course not,” Goering said off-handedly. “I’ve thought it over – it’s technically impossible.”

Here is Ribbontrop

“….Tell me – I wasn’t in court on Monday. – Did Hoess actually say that Hitler had ordered the mass murders?”
“He said that Himmler gave him a direct Fuehrerbefehl for the extermination of the Jews in 1941.”
Ribbentrop held his head in his hand and repeated in a descending whisper, “ – ’41, - ’41 – ’41 – My God! - Did Hoess ay in ’41?”
“Yes, transports started arriving as soon as he got the Fuehrerbehfel. From all over occupied Europe – me, women, and children who had been living a perfectly peaceful family life. They were undressed, led into gas chambers and murdered by the thousands. Then the gold rings and teeth were removed from the corpses, the hair was cut off the women’s heads, and the bodies were burned in the crematorium.”
“Stop! Stop! Herr Doktor – I cannot bear it! All those years – a man to whom children came so trustingly and lovingly. It must have been a fanatic madness – there is no doubt now that Hitler ordered it? I thought even up to now that perhaps Himmler, late in the war, under some pretext -. But ’41, he said? My God! My God!”

 

[TheRedWorm]

In the interest of saving anyone from actually taking you seriously, I present this:

I don't really mind one way or the other. But on a personal note, it will be a very sad day indeed when I can't get people online hopping mad by saying "The Illuminati did it" or tell them about the One True Crematorium at Birkenau

Well, I believe I can get people hopping mad.

Which should tell anyone and everyone exactly how serious and honest you are in debating this subject.

 

[Arisia]

In the interest of saving anyone from actually taking you seriously, I present this:





Which should tell anyone and everyone exactly how serious and honest you are in debating this subject.

Well, he is a little grey rabbit, hopping is probably pretty important to him.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Well, he is a little grey rabbit, hopping is probably pretty important to him.

 

[MG1962]

Goering was almost certainly saying that their racial policy to exclude Jews meant that in response Jews did their upmost to stir up hatred against them in the USSR, USA, Britain and France and were utilising their penetration into those societies to mobilises their military might against Germany.

Goering spoke exactly as I said. The conversation was with Albert Speer while both were exercising in the Nuremburg prison during the period betweeb getting their indictments and the begining of the actual trial.

The coment was also overheard and recorded by the newly arrived German speaking physicologist who was observing how the prisioners were holding up to the rigors of their confinement - He was Jewish, so I guess his observation doesn't matter

 

[Clayton Moore]

The 5 or 6 million was not in reference to Auschwitz. I had mentioned 1.1 million for Auschwitz way at the beginning of this thread.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Osteuropa/Fritjof_Meyer2.html


This would take it below 5 million. I don't know what figures to go by frankly.

If you perceive the fact that Churchill, Eisenhower, and de Gaulle never mentioned gas chambers in their post war writings as the gassing being a lie of about 2 million, according to an estimate by LemmyCaution, the accounting must be refudged again by the scholarly holocaust historians.

LemmyCaution

and I have stated a couple of times in here that a total of about 2.6 million Jews were murdered in all death camps together, most of them by lethal gas.

 

[Dogzilla]

In the interest of saving anyone from actually taking you seriously, I present this:





Which should tell anyone and everyone exactly how serious and honest you are in debating this subject.

You forgot to warn us all about MG1962. His comment here shows that he isn't to be taken seriously either according to you.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Goering spoke exactly as I said. The conversation was with Albert Speer while both were exercising in the Nuremburg prison during the period betweeb getting their indictments and the begining of the actual trial.

The coment was also overheard and recorded by the newly arrived German speaking physicologist who was observing how the prisioners were holding up to the rigors of their confinement - He was Jewish, so I guess his observation doesn't matter

LOL, physicologist. I admit my speling is sometimes not crash hot, but I don't invent discplines. Phycologist? Physiology, Psychologist?

GM Gilbert was indeed Jewish and I have no doubt he did say exactly what you said. I also have no doubt that GM Gilbert correctly recorded him as saying mass extermination at Auschwitz was fantasy.

I am mystified, which part of this did you not understand?
"Goering was almost certainly saying that their racial policy to exclude Jews meant that in response Jews did their upmost to stir up hatred against them in the USSR, USA, Britain and France and were utilising their penetration into those societies to mobilises their military might against Germany. "
Hence their racial politics caused them problems.

Even for someone who appears to believe in Physicology, this seems pretty straight forward.

Has anyone got any ideas about how I could dumb it down a little more for the Illuminati here?

 

[Dogzilla]

Goering spoke exactly as I said. The conversation was with Albert Speer while both were exercising in the Nuremburg prison during the period betweeb getting their indictments and the begining of the actual trial.

The coment was also overheard and recorded by the newly arrived German speaking physicologist who was observing how the prisioners were holding up to the rigors of their confinement - He was Jewish, so I guess his observation doesn't matter

Where do you get the idea that his observation doesn't matter? You asked what a Goering quote meant. LGR told you what it meant. What do you think Goering was talking about?

 

[kageki]

And why the obsession with the exact numbers. Does 4.9 million make it any better for you - Is 4.8 million defendable in some perverse way. Or 4.7 million put a smile on your face. Or 2 million make you want to skip out and buy icecream. Or is it the fact we dont have exact number right down to the nth degree somehow invalidates all those who died to satisfy a maniacs dream.

Why was it Goering said in a moment of reflection, it was our racial policy that got us here (Nuremberg)

Why not? People are obsessed with other events like Nanking or Bromberg.

No evaluating figures alone doesn't invalidate whether people were gassed or not, but it does make a difference. If already we have reduced the death toll by a million from 6 million then that is a lot reconciled by a little more then hand-waving. This also has an impact on the question of what happened to the millions when we don't seem to be sure of exactly how many millions. Also with reparations which is actually not a small matter.

Now it did matter when it was 4 million for Auschwitz so why doesn't it still matter if 1.1 million is not accurate? Meyer made sure to excoriate deniers, but what he wrote were pretty major revisions and also reduced the Auschwitz death toll furthermore in half. In doing so he also had denied that some at least were not gassed after all. So what is the truth then?

 

[Corsair 115]

Even without the deliberate slaughter of Jews, we'd still be left with the Nazi's cruel treatment and slaughter of Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, criminals, and prisoners of war, along with its widespread use of what was effectively slave labour.

There is so much the Nazi regime did which was vile and vicious. It richly deserved to be crushingly defeated for those things alone, never mind its actions against Jews. Removing the Holocaust from the list of Nazi atrocities will not, in any way, rehabilitate the image or record of the Nazi regime. It'll still be a wholly contemptible regime that deserved to be wiped out.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If you perceive the fact that Churchill, Eisenhower, and de Gaulle never mentioned gas chambers in their post war writings as the gassing being a lie of about 2 million, according to an estimate by LemmyCaution, the accounting must be refudged again by the scholarly holocaust historians.

I made no such estimate. I quoted Hilberg and then repeated his estimate. To repeat, Hilberg estimated 2.6 million exterminated in death camps. 1.4 million murdered in the open-air shootings in the East, 0.8 million dead from ghettoization and other causes, and 0.3 million killed in concentration and transit camps. What is astonishing is how ill-informed of the history they would critique are comic genius Clayton Moore and the somewhat slow kageki.

There's no need for us to review the most un-serious Churchill et al gambit again, as it has been done umpteen times including in this thread. If this is the kind of "proof" Clayton Moore has for his claims, no wonder he dodges every question asked about his positions.

 

[kageki]

Even without the deliberate slaughter of Jews, we'd still be left with the Nazi's cruel treatment and slaughter of Gypsies, homosexuals, political dissidents, criminals, and prisoners of war, along with its widespread use of what was effectively slave labour.

There is so much the Nazi regime did which was vile and vicious. It richly deserved to be crushingly defeated for those things alone, never mind its actions against Jews. Removing the Holocaust from the list of Nazi atrocities will not, in any way, rehabilitate the image or record of the Nazi regime. It'll still be a wholly contemptible regime that deserved to be wiped out.

What about Bolsheviks/Communists then? They were using slave labor as well.

 

[LemmyCaution]

What about Bolsheviks/Communists then? They were using slave labor as well.

Are you ever going to explain your views on the open-air shootings? Or are you too busy coming up with non sequiturs like this bizarre post?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Where do you get the idea that his observation doesn't matter? You asked what a Goering quote meant. LGR told you what it meant. What do you think Goering was talking about?

Although I'd be careful with Speer's "recollections," in the interests of full disclosure let it be noted that according to Speer, Goering remarked to him, in the exercise yard at Nuremberg, that he was surprised (perhaps as surprised as a trolling revisionist?) that any Jews from Hungary had managed to survive the war as he'd figured the Nazis had bumped them all off. Goering also told Gilbert that he wasn't antisemitic. Which IIRC he also tried on the stand, even while, unable to help himself, uttering antisemitic cliche after antisemitic cliche.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Although I'd be careful with Speer's "recollections," in the interests of full disclosure let it be noted that according to Speer, Goering remarked to him, in the exercise yard at Nuremberg, that he was surprised (perhaps as surprised as a trolling revisionist?) that any Jews from Hungary had managed to survive the war as he'd figured the Nazis had bumped them all off.

May I hazard a guess that this is Goering, according to Speer, according to Gita Sereny?

The fact is that the prime reason for the Hungarian Aktion was to recruit labor, Hoaxsters have tried to claim which the same mixture of innuendo and forced confessions that those unsuitable for labor were gassed - but the evidence for this is very slim.

As such it is utterly implausible that Speer would believe that Hungarians had all been killed - because he was busy using them. Goering's position as head of various economic planning committees would be equally unlikely to express such sentiments.

If Mr Caution has a more detailed reference we might be able to decide if Mr Speer had been verballed or was simply trying to ingratiate himself.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The quote I have found (ohne source) is "So, there are still some there? I thought we had knocked off all of them. Somebody slipped up again."

Is it just me, or do I detect the Air Marshall's famous caustic sarcasm here?

Ameriguns, it so happens, are notorious for their inability to comprehend irony.

 

[LemmyCaution]

May I hazard a guess that this is Goering, according to Speer, according to Gita Sereny?

Sure, but I think it is from Speer's book.

. . . it is utterly implausible that Speer would believe that Hungarians had all been killed - because he was busy using them.

It is Goering who supposedly blurted out his disappointment, not Speer. My recollection is fuzzy. In the interests of furthering bunny's games, I will try to find the references this evening, because there is no higher value than bunny's trolling.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I believe I have solved this particular little Hoaxing conundrum. See above