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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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MG1962 said:
Sorry the whole idea of mentioning WW2 and implausable in the same sentence becomes a mute point once you read Solomon Perel's story
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Europa, Europa
Amazon.com Review
Solomon Perel's may be one of the strangest wartime memoirs ever committed to print. At the outbreak of World War II Perel, a young Polish Jew, was interned in a Soviet orphanage. Captured by Wehrmacht soldiers, Perel, fluent in Russian and German, passed himself off as an ethnic German and was adopted by the Nazi unit to act as a translator--and as something of a mascot. Sent to Berlin to an all-male military school, Perel managed against all odds to keep his secret (after the war, he revealed his true identity to his disbelieving comrades-in-arms); in the meantime, his family perished. Now available for the first time in English translation, the full book revels in a sharp sense of irony and an ever-unfolding abundance of improbable episodes.
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kageki said:
It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day.
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What's the basis for that assumption? Do you have any practical experience that underlies it?

Is it implausible that Germany had some 900,000 railway freight car loadings in the week ending Aug. 19, 1944? Is it implausible that the number of railway car placements in the Essen Division of the Reichsbahn to transport coal were 21,400 per day? Is it implausible that Germany produced 39,807 aircraft of all types in 1944? Is it implausible that in July of 1944 some 2,570,000 metric tons of steel were produced by the Reich? Is the monthly average of 316,000 tons of synthetic oil produced in the first half of 1944 and nitrogen production of 75,000 tons per month implausible?

If they're not implausible, then why do you find the cremation figures to be so?
 
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kageki said:
Exactly more testimony basically.

Henry Makow basically denies the gas chambers, but feels the gas vans still happened and that is still another slightly different topic. That is still denial, but what do you think of such partial denial? Makow is a popular CT writer and also a son of Holocaust survivors.
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Can you point me to his books on the holocaust
 
little grey rabbit said:
There is no point in going down this road because Kremer gave testimony in courts in two countries that leave no doubt what these diary entries are supposed to refer to.
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Yes, but it's very likely that a believer will point to Kremer's diary and claim that in the diary, Kremer talks explicitly about the gas chambers and an extermination policy. But Kremer does not. It's important to understand the difference between what Kremer actually wrote in his diary and what he testified to in court. It's also helpful to understand why two women might be pleading for their lives during a "special action" unless there actually was an extermination policy.
 
MG1962 said:
Can you point me to his books on the holocaust
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He hasn't written a book on it, but articles and I guess I didn't remember quite exactly. This would be the relevant passage:
http://www.henrymakow.com/001497.html

There is no question the Nazis used gas vans in Russia so I can believe they had gas chambers in some death camps.
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It wasn't really appropriate to call it denial after re-reading his articles so I wanted to at least post these so you can read them yourself. I think the wording lead me to feel there was some doubt on the gas chambers as opposed to gas vans. So nevermind.
 
Corsair 115 said:
What's the basis for that assumption? Do you have any practical experience that underlies it?

Is it implausible that Germany had some 900,000 railway freight car loadings in the week ending Aug. 19, 1944? Is it implausible that the number of railway car placements in the Essen Division of the Reichsbahn to transport coal were 21,400 per day? Is it implausible that Germany produced 39,807 aircraft of all types in 1944? Is it implausible that in July of 1944 some 2,570,000 metric tons of steel were produced by the Reich? Is the monthly average of 316,000 tons of synthetic oil produced in the first half of 1944 and nitrogen production of 75,000 tons per month implausible?

If they're not implausible, then why do you find the cremation figures to be so?
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Who do you think performed a lot of that labor? Do you think the labor was brutalized and intimidated to get the jobs done?

I don't think any of you believers understand how work works.
 
Corsair 115 said:
What's the basis for that assumption? Do you have any practical experience that underlies it?

Is it implausible that Germany had some 900,000 railway freight car loadings in the week ending Aug. 19, 1944? Is it implausible that the number of railway car placements in the Essen Division of the Reichsbahn to transport coal were 21,400 per day? Is it implausible that Germany produced 39,807 aircraft of all types in 1944? Is it implausible that in July of 1944 some 2,570,000 metric tons of steel were produced by the Reich? Is the monthly average of 316,000 tons of synthetic oil produced in the first half of 1944 and nitrogen production of 75,000 tons per month implausible?

If they're not implausible, then why do you find the cremation figures to be so?
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Do you? These comparisons are completely irrelevant.

Here is a video of Ivan Legace, a cremation expert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aNwnSMWqGs
 
Clayton Moore said:
Notice he doesn't mention of communists. Nor Chiclets.
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This seems like a good moment to insert the following reference and quote:

"While the Jews are suffering in Poland on the pretext that they are Bolsheviki, reports from the Ukraine cabled by Jewish correspondents to this country tell of pogroms perpetrated there because the Jews are anti-Bolshevist."
A Record Of Pogroms in Poland - Massacres Began in Lemberg, According to Documents Received Here, and Spread over Country. The New York Times June 1, 1919

In light of your recent comments on a New Holocaust being created I would like you to coordinate with Saggy and then come up with a chronology, a timeline for the creation of -what Saggy calls- the hoax.
Place certain events on the timeline and indicate whether each event indicates to use your words - the new or the actual Holocaust.

One example from your recent wave of comments. When you wrote a short remark about the implications of certain photographs taken in and around Dachau you didn't choose the Dachau memorial for the link of the image although there is an ongoing exhibition supported by such photographs in Dachau. You picked a known anti-semtic site and remained silent when you were asked why.
If you had written in a comment what that site hosts, your comment would have been split to Aah. Are you skirting the JREF rules but nevertheless sympathetic to the anti-semitc sentiments expressed or is it all a misunderstanding of what you try to say here? If not a misunderstanding, there is good reason why you are informed what the consequences would be for stating such things combined with your repeated claims of others lying.

Back to the timeline. Put a date on it and indicate what if any influence Holocaust deniers had on each of the following:
The photographers take pictures of the Kaufering born babies. Is that photographer part of the old Holocaust or the new?
Publication of a book like: "Mothers, Sisters, Resisters: Oral Histories of Women Who Survived the Holocaust (Judaic Studies Series) by Brana Grunewitch.
USHMM uploading that photograph to their image database and providing captions which identify a.o. when and where the photograph was taken - is that old or new Holocaust?
Ongoing Exhibition at Dachau including that photograph - same question - old or new Holocaust?
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Who do you think performed a lot of that labor? Do you think the labor was brutalized and intimidated to get the jobs done?

I don't think any of you believers understand how work works.
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About a third (by mid-1944) were foreigners. Russians, both POW and civilian forced labour, formed the largest single group, but they came from all the conquered territories.

This is all documented. As are the conditions they worked under. The Russians being treated worse than the Poles, who were treated worse then those from the West. This is one of the reasons Russian POWs had such an appalling survival rate.

The forced labour from the concentration camps was a small number in relation. Can you guess where they stood in the above hierarchy?
 
kageki said:
The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day. It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Some of the other reasons have already been discussed and it has nothing to do with the main victims being Jews. I would have disputed it if it were Gypsies or anyone else instead. The complications of mass gassing and disposal are enormous.
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Wrong, the evidence is not almost entirely testimony. In addition to witness testimony, which isn't so easily handwaved away, and which comes from victims, bystanders, and perpetrators, a great deal of the evidence is in the form of documents. And there have been forensic studies of both gassing and shooting sites, much as deniers ignore these. What there is very little evidence for, on the other hand, is the twin denier gambits that the witness testimony and incriminating paper trails were on the one hand coerced and on the other manipulated or forged. We are still waiting, for example, for the promised deconstruction of OSR 24. And waiting.

Let me introduce you to, to take two examples of those who have relied heavily and successfully on documents, Mr Hilberg and Mr Longerich. But there are many other scholars I could name whose careful work in archives reconstructs the decision-making and impact of the genocide. Roberto Muehlenkamp has written extensively on forensic studies of the genocide at Holocaust Controversies, to take another example of what you are ignoring.

Unhappily for your side, these various types of evidence tell very similar stories in the case of the genocide. There is an immense volume of this evidence, and it fits well together. It comes from many different sources and streams. That is why you are reduced to your core values and beliefs, expressed here as your common sense of what is implausible or not. Your point of view is essentially worthless and laughable for what it ignores. And for most deniers "it's implausible" is a polite coverup for antisemitism and Nazi style ideology. I don't know you or your motivations. Just saying.

I am sure you are aware that Irene Zisblatt's claims are not what is at question here. In fact, they are not taken seriously, as evidence in favor of death camps, by scholars who research the extermination of the Jews, witness Joachim Neander's article on her book. Again, your raising Zisblatt only shows your ignorance of the field or your mendacity, given that she has been "debunked" rather noisily by "believers." You may find this implausible but it is a fact: scholars of the Holocaust do not treat all testimony the same and weed out bad testimonies, which are as much a part of the sourcing for the Holocaust as they are, say, for major wars.

Given your attachment to uninformed common sense and your dismissal of major types of evidence for the extermination of the Jews, to be consistent, you are now going to have to throw out a great deal of human history, including, for example, events like Stalin's purges and show trials and the mass starvation in the Ukraine, which rely on evidence not to your suiting. In fact, most historical writing uses documents and, where they can find them, historians are eager to consult testimonies in various formats.
 
kageki said:
Exactly more testimony basically.

Henry Makow basically denies the gas chambers, but feels the gas vans still happened and that is still another slightly different topic. That is still denial, but what do you think of such partial denial? Makow is a popular CT writer and also a son of Holocaust survivors.
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This is not an argument for anything except perhaps your distortion of how testimony works. Do you also deny, because it seems implausible, that different people have different experiences and witness different things? Do you expect everyone who witnesses an event or series of events to have seen exactly the same things from the same point of view and thus to conform on every detail and on the totality of their testimony? Forgive me, but this is implausible. I don't know Mr Makow but perhaps he has some reasons, given his experiences, for feeling that the gas vans operated but, again based on his experiences (say, he wasn't there or heard from someone he didn't know and trust or whatever) isn't as sure about the fixed gas chambers. So what? He is a single data point in a sea of data points. Or perhaps you are distorting what the man said . . . someone will check, but not me. I have better things to do than to chase down idiotic gambits based on false premises like this one.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Who do you think performed a lot of that labor? Do you think the labor was brutalized and intimidated to get the jobs done?

I don't think any of you believers understand how work works.
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Since we have discussed labor policy and various aspects of wartime work and the support labor for the operations of the genocide various times in this thread, and since there exist large amounts of scholarship on both issues, and since nothing anyone writes and sources sticks in Clayton Moore's mind, we might as well just let Clayton Moore make the same unfounded assertions over and over. Clayton Moore has an uncanny ability to repeat general and vapid claims without ever replying to evidence, details, or arguments that undermine them. It is as though he isn't listening, eh.
 
Dogzilla said:
Yes, but it's very likely that a believer will point to Kremer's diary and claim that in the diary, Kremer talks explicitly about the gas chambers and an extermination policy. But Kremer does not. It's important to understand the difference between what Kremer actually wrote in his diary and what he testified to in court. It's also helpful to understand why two women might be pleading for their lives during a "special action" unless there actually was an extermination policy.
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That would assume there was something called a "special action" and that this special action could be called a normal delousing.
Second inoculation against typhus, later on in the evening severe
generalized reaction (fever). Despite this in the night attended a
further Sonderaktion from Holland (1,600 persons). Ghastly scenes
in front of the last bunker! That was the 10th Sonderaktion.
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So would a shower block be called a bunker? Rather unlikely and that leaves to one side as to why Kremer said it was an "extermination camp" - Vernichtungslager - something popular after the war but not heard during the war. Since I have provided a much stronger and better evidenced paradigm to view Kremer's diary and his testimony, it would be foolish to ignore.

As you can have this discussion 100 times with 100 different Hoaxsters, about Kremer's diary - and everytime you will lose.

However, if that is your hobby, be my guest.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
I don't know from this cryptic statement what sorts of sources Rabbit is referring to. The sources I've read most happen to be diaries and other writings of victims, not crude and obvious descriptions of selections and feasting. I confess to quoting from Kremer, albeit clumsily, in order to concur in there being no shock value in the diary in that it represents business as usual, a pattern to one's days which Hoess or Globus or Wirths or others like them would well recognize, nothing more. That I have read some victims' writings doesn't make me a "fan" of such artifacts either.
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It was Friedrich Mennecke
The second portion followed, a totla of 1,200 Jews, none of whom are even examined; it is enough to take the reason for arrest (often very comprehensive!) from the file and enter it on the form. Thus it is purely theoretical work, which will certainly occupy our time until Monday, maybe even longer. For this second portion (Jews), we did the following today: 17 for me, 15 for Mueller. At exactly 5:00 pm. we "threw in the towel" and went to dinner: a cold plate of salami (nine large slices), butter, bread, and a helping of coffee! Cost:. 80 marks without coupons!!
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You note the pattern of segueing from talking about gassings to discussing meals - oh the horror, the horror.

What is your opinion of it? I think it is rather crude and lacks a certain je ne sais pas
 
Slight variation this time, instead of gassing -> food, we have food -> gassing

Bielefeld, den 20.11.41.
(20. 30 h)
Mein liebes Putteli!
Wieder ist ein harter Arbeitstag zu Ende. Ich sitze allein in meinem Hotel und habe soeben zum
Abendessen gekochten Kabeljau mit Salzkartoffeln u. Senf-Sauce zu mir genommen. Jetzt leiste ich
mir 1/2 Flasche" 1934er Crettnacher Eucharienberg" von den Ufern der Saar. Von den andern sind
die meisten in's Kino gegangen, um sich das "Wunschkonzert" anzusehen. - Die heutige Arbeit ging
wieder ziemlich flott. Das Haus „Arafna“ mit 68 Insassen ist fertig geworden, von denen ich 34
gemacht habe.
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LemmyCaution said:
Wrong, the evidence is not almost entirely testimony. In addition to witness testimony, which isn't so easily handwaved away, and which comes from victims, bystanders, and perpetrators, a great deal of the evidence is in the form of documents. And there have been forensic studies of both gassing and shooting sites, much as deniers ignore these. What there is very little evidence for, on the other hand, is the twin denier gambits that the witness testimony and incriminating paper trails were on the one hand coerced and on the other manipulated or forged. We are still waiting, for example, for the promised deconstruction of OSR 24. And waiting.

Let me introduce you to, to take two examples of those who have relied heavily and successfully on documents, Mr Hilberg and Mr Longerich. But there are many other scholars I could name whose careful work in archives reconstructs the decision-making and impact of the genocide. Roberto Muehlenkamp has written extensively on forensic studies of the genocide at Holocaust Controversies, to take another example of what you are ignoring.

Unhappily for your side, these various types of evidence tell very similar stories in the case of the genocide. There is an immense volume of this evidence, and it fits well together. It comes from many different sources and streams. That is why you are reduced to your core values and beliefs, expressed here as your common sense of what is implausible or not. Your point of view is essentially worthless and laughable for what it ignores. And for most deniers "it's implausible" is a polite coverup for antisemitism and Nazi style ideology. I don't know you or your motivations. Just saying.

I am sure you are aware that Irene Zisblatt's claims are not what is at question here. In fact, they are not taken seriously, as evidence in favor of death camps, by scholars who research the extermination of the Jews, witness Joachim Neander's article on her book. Again, your raising Zisblatt only shows your ignorance of the field or your mendacity, given that she has been "debunked" rather noisily by "believers." You may find this implausible but it is a fact: scholars of the Holocaust do not treat all testimony the same and weed out bad testimonies, which are as much a part of the sourcing for the Holocaust as they are, say, for major wars.

Given your attachment to uninformed common sense and your dismissal of major types of evidence for the extermination of the Jews, to be consistent, you are now going to have to throw out a great deal of human history, including, for example, events like Stalin's purges and show trials and the mass starvation in the Ukraine, which rely on evidence not to your suiting. In fact, most historical writing uses documents and, where they can find them, historians are eager to consult testimonies in various formats.
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The forensic studies on gassings only happened decades after the fact and it was initiated by revisionists! Plus you all like quoting Rudolf who basically said these studies are inconclusive.

You sure talk a lot and then end with "you hate Jews". Talk about laughable indeed. That's all you can say in the end.

Well aspects of the Holodomor is being debated and some do deny it, but it's not throwing out history. Revision would be the correct term. The deportations and slave labor of the Holocaust still happened after all and that honestly was bad enough.
 
kageki said:
The forensic studies on gassings only happened decades after the fact and it was initiated by revisionists! Plus you all like quoting Rudolf who basically said these studies are inconclusive.

You sure talk a lot and then end with "you hate Jews". Talk about laughable indeed. That's all you can say in the end.

Well aspects of the Holodomor is being debated and some do deny it, but it's not throwing out history. Revision would be the correct term. The deportations and slave labor of the Holocaust still happened after all and that honestly was bad enough.
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You should assist Saggy and Clayton Moore with their creation of a Holocaust denier's timeline. Take note of the date and put this on it:
"Rear view of one of the 145 galvanized plates, perforated by hand, which were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air ducts in the upper part of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III, now kept in the PMO “stores”, Block 25. Toxicological analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2 damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. After scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal, 7.2 grams of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report, signed by Dr Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn."
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Pressac, Technique - page 233
http://www.mazal.org/Pressac/Pressac0233.htm

Rudolf tried to hand wave it away and you try to pretend it never existed - or are you also going to deny that you were aware of this study in addition to denying the Holocaust?
 
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