Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[dafydd]

Oh, I love the Internet.

That above is the kind of statement that would normally earn a guy a mouth full of bloody Chiclets. But anonymouse up there can just blather all day long. Not one iota of sac.

Hitler was a coward too,died like a rat up a sewer instead of like a brave Aryan warrior.

 

[Corsair 115]

Hitler declared the Japanese to be Aryans when they entered the war so I suppose that our Hitler fans here will deny anything that they got up to.

That's possible. But they haven't actually said anything one way or the other about it, which is why I asked. And they still haven't said anything yet one way or the other. So I'll repeat:

Were only the atrocities committed by Germany faked while those committed by Japan were real? Or was Japan the victim of an organized Allied conspiracy to fake atrocities as well?

 

[Dogzilla]

Side note: I wonder, do Clayton et. al. deny the various heinous acts perpetrated by the Japanese during WWII, e.g. the 'comfort women,' Bataan Death March, the widespread mistreatment of prisoners of war? Or is it just German transgressions which are faked while Japanese misdeeds were real?

I for one do not deny German transgressions. I deny that the evidence for gas chambers, a state-sponsored plan to exterminate the Jews, and six million intentionally murdered as part of this plan is compelling. Evidently those three elements are the only ones that comprise the holocaust.

Do you deny the various heinous acts perpetrated by the Japanese during WWII, e.g. the 'comfort women,' Bataan Death March, the widespread mistreatment of prisoners of war, and the intentional murder of six million innocent Chinese men, women and children, many of them in gas chambers, as part of a plan to exterminate the entire Chinese nation? Or do you hate the Chinese?

What happened to Xi Wang?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Your uncle didn't see people being gassed or even the bodies of people alleged to be gassed because they don't exist.

Your retorts are way out of line and it's been old for a long time. It's amazing why this forum allows that.

Exactly.

As I said before the Holocaust myth is a lie that was spewed against the Germans, the Red Cross, the Catholic Church, the Allies. The spewers waited a couple of decades and noticed no one was disputing the big lie, so they decided to use the big lie for their personal gain. The lie wasn't disputed out of respect for the Jewish people who did suffer.

The only information the MSM provides about the Holocaust is the big lie. The barrage of Holocaust movies, Holocaust books, Holocaust museums is all a campaign to keep the public on the spewers side no matter what Israel does, past, present and future.

 

[Clayton Moore]

That's possible. But they haven't actually said anything one way or the other about it, which is why I asked. And they still haven't said anything yet one way or the other. So I'll repeat:

Were only the atrocities committed by Germany faked while those committed by Japan were real? Or was Japan the victim of an organized Allied conspiracy to fake atrocities as well?

Faked? A lie is a lie.

 

[Clayton Moore]

One aspect of the Holocaust that seems to be overlooked is the Communist connection. All of Europe knew of the tens of millions of Christians who died under the control of Russian Communists.

 

[Dogzilla]

Thanks for catching this error, you are correct, I overlooked that line when I deleted the others and thus left in what was meant to be excised. It does not belong in the material I quoted. As noted, nothing shocking in a place that makes Dante's Inferno seem a comedy and is justly called an extermination camp, the anus mundi, or the most horrible of horrors. Special action, from which women appeal to have their lives spared, being just a part of the frivolity and feasting.

Kremer's diary entries need to be considered in the context of the long standing fear among the eastern European Jews of German delousing procedures.

This is a description of a German delousing as seen by a Jewish women who was subjected to it. This was published in 1912 but refers to an incident from the late 19th century:

"The train stopped, and the passengers were told to get out, Maryashe explained. They were led into a large yard
where many men and women dressed in white awaited them.​

This was....[a] scene of bewildering confusion, parents losing their children, and little ones crying; baggage being
thrown together in one corner of the yard, heedless of contents, which suffered in consequence; those white-clad
Germans shouting commands, always accompanied with "Quick! Quick!"--the confused passengers obeying all
orders like meek children, only questioning now and then what was going to be done them...Our things were taken
away, our friends separated from us; a man came to inspect us, as if to ascertain our full value; stranger-looking
people driving us about like dumb animals, helpless and unresisting; children we could not see crying in a way that
suggested terrible things; ourselves driven into a little room where a great kettle was boiling on a little stove; our
clothes taken off, our bodies rubbed with a slippery substance that might be any bad thing; a shower of warm water
let down on us without warning; again driven to another little room where we sit, wrapped in woolen blankets till
large, coarse bags are brought in, their contents turned out, and we see only a cloud of steam, and hear the
women's orders to dress ourselves,--"Quick! Quick!"--or else we'll miss--something we cannot hear. We are forced to
pick out our clothes from among all the others, with steam blinding us; we choke, cough, entreat the women to give
us time; they persist, "Quick! Quick!--or we'll miss the train!"--Oh, so we really won't be murdered! They are only
making us ready for the continuing of our journey, cleaning us of all suspicions of dangerous sickness. Thank God!"​

I can imagine watching this sort of reaction from the German side could be very disturbing. I can also imagine it would be very frustrating to be part of the contingent that was responsible for keeping ordering during this procedure. You can be patient when a three year old is afraid of the bath but a whole trainload of adult Jews believing they're going to die just because you want them clean is a bit much.

 

[Dogzilla]

Wasn't there a doctor in the 14f13 program that wrote a diary or letters alternating between selecting prisoners to gas and descriptions of the lavish meals he was eating?
I can't remember what it was now exactly. I think these types of documents are a little crude and too obvious, but i daresay lemmycaution is a big fan of them.

Meanwhile, continuing on with Wroclaw's list - I assume we are agreed that Baer has not left testimony that he saw gas chambers, I will move on to Konrad Morgen

This is his testimony at Nuremberg


So he says the gas chambers were in Monowitz and states that only non-SS troops worked and guarded it - or at least Ukrainians or Baltic troops. Which is obviously untrue.

So although he does claim to have seen the gas chambers, all of us agree he is a perjurer. Hence i think he does not help you case very much.

But if he's lying about this, is it possible he also lied when he admitted how he discovered the entire extermination process?

 

[Dogzilla]

No.

Do YOU believe he told us the truth about how he uncovered the extermination process? What was he investigating? What did he discover?

 

[Wroclaw]

One aspect of the Holocaust that seems to be overlooked is the Communist connection. All of Europe knew of the tens of millions of Christians who died under the control of Russian Communists.

Two things:

(1) All of Europe did not know what had happened in the Soviet Union, particularly regarding the Ukrainian famine, which Stalin did a pretty good job of covering up a for a long time. People knew about the Red Terror during the civil war and they knew about the Great Purges in the '30s to a lesser extent, but Stalin hadn't really been involved in the Red Terror (that was mainly Trotsky and Lenin, and it was limited to the civil war itself, and it's not like the anti-Bolsheviks didn't commit equal heinous atrocities) and the number killed in the Great Purges was, comparatively, smaller and didn't affect the general population in the manner that the Holodomor did.

(2) Depending on location, the Jewish death toll under the Bolsheviks were perhaps as high as ten percent of the overall number killed, which is significantly higher than the overall percentage of Jews in the general population. I mention this because I tired of hearing how the Bolsheviks only targeted "Christian" Russians. Yes, the churches were closed, but so were the synagogues. Hebrew was outlawed as a language to suppress practice of the Jewish faith. So can it with the "Christian" Russians.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Mock (that's Mock, not Monk) said seven eyewitnesses.

Learn to read.

Right 69, then there were only 7 - one of whom was a perjurer.

I don't believe that Dr Mock was trying to say there were only 7 eyewitnesses and Dr Terry certainly didn't think

SS Witnesses to Gas Chambers at Auschwitz - Factual Query

Reading arguments on http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm2 ... D=18.topic , I came across a claim that there were at least 69 SS officers and men who testified after the war to witnessing the gas chambers and their use. But no list.

Quick initial stab at this; i.e. some known witnesses, but also list of the accused in 2 main trials - not all of whom will have been 'gas chamber witnesses'.

Confirmed Gas Chamber Witnesses

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=883337

So Dr Terry agreed with my interpretation.

So why not scrap your 69 "witnesses" - which appears to have no meaning - and instead create another list of genuine eye-witnesses.

 

[little grey rabbit]

That's possible. But they haven't actually said anything one way or the other about it, which is why I asked. And they still haven't said anything yet one way or the other. So I'll repeat:

Were only the atrocities committed by Germany faked while those committed by Japan were real? Or was Japan the victim of an organized Allied conspiracy to fake atrocities as well?

I haven't touched the 30 odd volumes of the Tokyo War Crimes trials that sit just below the Nuremberg volumes. To do so I would have to gain some level of Japanese to make it worthwhile.

Since the Holocaust and the gas chambers were comparatively minor issues at Nuremberg, which focused much more on war guilt, war conduct and crimes of occupation not exclusively related to Jews, I wouldn't say the issues at Nuremberg were all fake - only gas chambers.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Two things:

(1) All of Europe did not know what had happened in the Soviet Union, particularly regarding the Ukrainian famine, which Stalin did a pretty good job of covering up a for a long time. People knew about the Red Terror during the civil war and they knew about the Great Purges in the '30s to a lesser extent, but Stalin hadn't really been involved in the Red Terror (that was mainly Trotsky and Lenin, and it was limited to the civil war itself, and it's not like the anti-Bolsheviks didn't commit equal heinous atrocities) and the number killed in the Great Purges was, comparatively, smaller and didn't affect the general population in the manner that the Holodomor did.

(2) Depending on location, the Jewish death toll under the Bolsheviks were perhaps as high as ten percent of the overall number killed, which is significantly higher than the overall percentage of Jews in the general population. I mention this because I tired of hearing how the Bolsheviks only targeted "Christian" Russians. Yes, the churches were closed, but so were the synagogues. Hebrew was outlawed as a language to suppress practice of the Jewish faith. So can it with the "Christian" Russians.

Notice he doesn't mention of communists. Nor Chiclets.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Two things:

(1) All of Europe did not know what had happened in the Soviet Union, particularly regarding the Ukrainian famine, which Stalin did a pretty good job of covering up a for a long time. People knew about the Red Terror during the civil war and they knew about the Great Purges in the '30s to a lesser extent, but Stalin hadn't really been involved in the Red Terror (that was mainly Trotsky and Lenin, and it was limited to the civil war itself, and it's not like the anti-Bolsheviks didn't commit equal heinous atrocities) and the number killed in the Great Purges was, comparatively, smaller and didn't affect the general population in the manner that the Holodomor did.

(2) Depending on location, the Jewish death toll under the Bolsheviks were perhaps as high as ten percent of the overall number killed, which is significantly higher than the overall percentage of Jews in the general population. I mention this because I tired of hearing how the Bolsheviks only targeted "Christian" Russians. Yes, the churches were closed, but so were the synagogues. Hebrew was outlawed as a language to suppress practice of the Jewish faith. So can it with the "Christian" Russians.

What a load of nonsense

From the wikipedia page on Holodomor it gives ethnic breakdown of victims

According to estimates[76] about 81.3% of the famine victims in Ukrainian SRR were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and other nationalities became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[80] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.



If you look at demographics according to the 1926 census (last column percentage)
Ukranians 23,218,860 80.0
Russians 2,677,166 9.2
Jews 1,574,428 5.4
Germans 393,924 1.4
Poles 476,435 1.6

In fact 1.4% might mean a barely elevated death rate of Jews during the famine at all.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Kremer's diary entries need to be considered in the context of the long standing fear among the eastern European Jews of German delousing procedures.

This is a description of a German delousing as seen by a Jewish women who was subjected to it. This was published in 1912 but refers to an incident from the late 19th century:



I can imagine watching this sort of reaction from the German side could be very disturbing. I can also imagine it would be very frustrating to be part of the contingent that was responsible for keeping ordering during this procedure. You can be patient when a three year old is afraid of the bath but a whole trainload of adult Jews believing they're going to die just because you want them clean is a bit much.

There is no point in going down this road because Kremer gave testimony in courts in two countries that leave no doubt what these diary entries are supposed to refer to.

 

[Wroclaw]

Right 69, then there were only 7 - one of whom was a perjurer.

Two things: (1) There are still 69 witnesses — but only seven are confirmed (by me) eyewitnesses (so far); (2) You haven't proved anyone was a perjurer.

I don't believe that Dr Mock was trying to say there were only 7 eyewitnesses and Dr Terry certainly didn't think

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=883337

So Dr Terry agreed with my interpretation.

The existence of different lists does not mean one is right and not the other. It's possible both are incomplete. I haven't looked into it very far yet.

So why not scrap your 69 "witnesses" - which appears to have no meaning - and instead create another list of genuine eye-witnesses.

No.

Instead, let's discuss Mock's list of eyewitnesses. Shall we start with Morgen, as suggested, or did you want to discuss Kremer? Because I note that you have posted on this thread about Kremer already.

Your move on whom we discuss first.

P.S. I'm back.

 

[Wroclaw]

Notice he doesn't mention of communists. Nor Chiclets.

Hey, laughing-boy: Bolsheviks are communists.

Also: When you get so far out of line that the result, were you in the physical presence of the person you've offended, would be physical violence, then I think that warrants mention.

No apology for that.

 

[Wroclaw]

What a load of nonsense

Oh, goody, you're also an expert on the Holodomor. And on Zyklon-B as I recall! Is there anything you're not an expert on?

From the wikipedia page on Holodomor it gives ethnic breakdown of victims

According to estimates[76] about 81.3% of the famine victims in Ukrainian SRR were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.4% Jews and 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and other nationalities became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[80] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years.

If you look at demographics according to the 1926 census (last column percentage)
Ukranians 23,218,860 80.0
Russians 2,677,166 9.2
Jews 1,574,428 5.4
Germans 393,924 1.4
Poles 476,435 1.6

In fact 1.4% might mean a barely elevated death rate of Jews during the famine at all.

Way to jump to conclusions.

I said, "Depending on location, the Jewish death toll under the Bolsheviks were perhaps as high as ten percent of the overall number killed, which is significantly higher than the overall percentage of Jews in the general population."

Now, you note that the 1.4% of the victims of the Holodomor overall were Jewish.

You would agree, however, would you not, that there were places within Ukraine that had higher Jewish populations than others?

My wife's grandmother came from a town in Ukraine just north of Kiev. She apparently used to sell bread in the city, which was within walking distance. Back then, Jews weren't allowed to live in the city proper unless there were deemed important in some way. She left Ukraine in 1922 — the civil war had not fully ended yet. She was twelve years old at the time. To assume that the demographic would have shifted that much within ten years is assuming, I think, that the Soviet government in Stalin's early years was far more efficient than it actually was.

The point? In the town where my wife's grandmother actually lived, there were no Gentiles. What percentage of the victims of the famine in that town were Jews, do you think?

And, yes, I can tell you for certain that the famine hit that town.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Oh, goody, you're also an expert on the Holodomor. And on Zyklon-B as I recall! Is there anything you're not an expert on?



Way to jump to conclusions.

I said, "Depending on location, the Jewish death toll under the Bolsheviks were perhaps as high as ten percent of the overall number killed, which is significantly higher than the overall percentage of Jews in the general population."

Now, you note that the 1.4% of the victims of the Holodomor overall were Jewish.

You would agree, however, would you not, that there were places within Ukraine that had higher Jewish populations than others?

My wife's grandmother came from a town in Ukraine just north of Kiev. She apparently used to sell bread in the city, which was within walking distance. Back then, Jews weren't allowed to live in the city proper unless there were deemed important in some way. She left Ukraine in 1922 — the civil war had not fully ended yet. She was twelve years old at the time. To assume that the demographic would have shifted that much within ten years is assuming, I think, that the Soviet government in Stalin's early years was far more efficient than it actually was.

The point? In the town where my wife's grandmother actually lived, there were no Gentiles. What percentage of the victims of the famine in that town were Jews, do you think?

And, yes, I can tell you for certain that the famine hit that town.

Exactly.

As I said before the Holocaust myth is a lie that was spewed against the Germans, the Red Cross, the Catholic Church, the Allies. The spewers waited a couple of decades and noticed no one was disputing the big lie, so they decided to use the big lie for their personal gain. The lie wasn't disputed out of respect for the Jewish people who did suffer.

The only information the MSM provides about the Holocaust is the big lie. The barrage of Holocaust movies, Holocaust books, Holocaust museums is all a campaign to keep the public on the spewers side no matter what Israel does, past, present and future.

So, you have a vested interest in the Holocaust lies?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Wasn't there a doctor in the 14f13 program that wrote a diary or letters alternating between selecting prisoners to gas and descriptions of the lavish meals he was eating?
I can't remember what it was now exactly. I think these types of documents are a little crude and too obvious, but i daresay lemmycaution is a big fan of them.

I don't know from this cryptic statement what sorts of sources Rabbit is referring to. The sources I've read most happen to be diaries and other writings of victims, not crude and obvious descriptions of selections and feasting. I confess to quoting from Kremer, albeit clumsily, in order to concur in there being no shock value in the diary in that it represents business as usual, a pattern to one's days which Hoess or Globus or Wirths or others like them would well recognize, nothing more. That I have read some victims' writings doesn't make me a "fan" of such artifacts either.