Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[kageki]

No, documentation to the certainty of death. Which I'm sure that until about 10 minutes ago you had never heard of.

This is why I said to you earlier in the thread that you are simply picking up a 'new" version of what happened and sucking up everything that version says.

It is within reason to expect that sick prisoners may have misunderstood things they were seeing.

For example if a body was flung into a pit as an attempt to handle the corpses the trauma of seeing this brutal reality could have caused a false memory.

This happens all the time. In all your posts I've not seen a whit of human sympathy to the atrocity of being kept prisoner and watching thousands of people around you die every week.

It's horrible. If there were mixed up memories it would certainly be understandable no?

And yet you present this as "evidence" of a conspiracy to spread a huge lie. It's a little silly after a while.

Are you dealing with reality or some "Star Wars" version of what happened in the camps?

It was not Hogan's Heros.

I don't see how someone can possibly mistake a live person or baby tossed into burning pits or whether that even happened at all.

The soap was a lie no?

 

[truethat]

I don't see how someone can possibly mistake a live person or baby tossed into burning pits or whether that even happened at all.

The soap was a lie no?

I know you can't. This is why you should develop your critical thinking skills and try to deal with reality and not sound bites.

Try to consider what it was like to live in a camp with the conditions of sickness and starvation all around you. Then imagine being asked to witness to the events unfolding around you.

In addition you might want to look up the numbers of Nazi's who died in the camps as a result of typhus. It was an epidemic no? Very contagious.

 

[kageki]

I know you can't. This is why you should develop your critical thinking skills and try to deal with reality and not sound bites.

Try to consider what it was like to live in a camp with the conditions of sickness and starvation all around you. Then imagine being asked to witness to the events unfolding around you.

In addition you might want to look up the numbers of Nazi's who died in the camps as a result of typhus. It was an epidemic no? Very contagious.

It was still a tragedy to be forcefully deported and put to labor, but that also means those people had every reason to lie and exaggerate. The question is what exactly happened in those camps.

Here is a survivor insisting the soap story was true:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH10Xf2D0jg

 

[truethat]

Of course, people lying and exaggerating is only human. But that doesn't erase all of it. The main reason that the memories would have been distorted is because of the trauma associated with it. You act is if this means it never happened?

sigh

 

[kageki]

Of course, people lying and exaggerating is only human. But that doesn't erase all of it. The main reason that the memories would have been distorted is because of the trauma associated with it. You act is if this means it never happened?

sigh

Actually I would think people will either remember it very clearly or lose the memory all together due to the trauma.

You look at the evidence. Not just testimonies. It was by looking at the evidence that they concluded they didn't make soap. Looking at the evidence for gas chambers and the death toll and it doesn't seem to add up.

 

[truethat]

Actually I would think people will either remember it very clearly or lose the memory all together due to the trauma.

You look at the evidence. Not just testimonies. It was by looking at the evidence that they concluded they didn't make soap. Looking at the evidence for gas chambers and the death toll and it doesn't seem to add up.

Yes many people did remember it very clearly. That's why they are considered witnesses. You're starting to get it now!


We're not talking about soap. Is that what you are left debating now that everything else you have said has been toppled?

It is understandable how the urban legend of the soap came to about. Gossip and innuendo throughout the camps.

However that doesn't change the reality of the thousands and thousands of witnesses that survived the camp and what they have seen and told.

Sorry, it just doesn't.

 

[kageki]

Yes many people did remember it very clearly. That's why they are considered witnesses. You're starting to get it now!


We're not talking about soap. Is that what you are left debating now that everything else you have said has been toppled?

It is understandable how the urban legend of the soap came to about. Gossip and innuendo throughout the camps.

However that doesn't change the reality of the thousands and thousands of witnesses that survived the camp and what they have seen and told.

Sorry, it just doesn't.

Most of them aren't even eyewitnesses of gas chambers and then some talk about huge fires and smoke coming out of chimneys that don't seem to be based on reality.

Just even the possibility of thousands being gassed and cremated daily seems ridiculous when you look at the facts.

 

[truethat]

Someone watched a Donahue clip! Oh my. Pesky little thing, those witnesses

 

[kageki]

Someone watched a Donahue clip! Oh my. Pesky little thing, those witnesses

Eva Kor didn't see the gas chambers.

Irene Zisblatt talks about how she clung on to the door of the gas chamber as a child and managed to resist the strength of an adult male solider and was somehow spared from execution.

Arnost Lustig, “During the three years there, I was three times sentenced to be shot dead and umpteenth times to be gassed,”

 

[Dogzilla]

Well the main issue is whether those gassings or cremations happened so it sounds like you are a revisionist.

The gas chambers are one essential element of the holocaust for which there is extremely weak evidence. Cremation of bodies is an element of the holocaust for which there is no doubt. Crematoriums were built and bodies were incinerated in these crematoriums. They did not burn bodies as quickly or easily as the official holocaust story claims. They weren't completely reduced to ash so that nothing remained. And nobody was burned in a pit. But bodies were cremated. Don't lump gassing and cremation together.

 

[Dogzilla]

See what little you know Kageki is quite sad. This is why you think everyone else knows nothing. Because you have no idea yourself. I am glad you are asking these questions so that other "fence sitter' deniers can see how really far away from the truth these sorts of denials are.

Aguna



I bet you have never even heard of this and had no idea this is why there is so much documentation.

What is the point of discussing Jewish law relative to the gas chambers? There "is so much documentation" of what?

 

[Dogzilla]

Here's more about it Kageki




The reason the Holocaust has so much documentation as to the method of death, that in a way would stand out compared to other pogroms and camps and war atrocities, is that they had to determine if the husband had fallen into a Lion's den, or a Pit of Snakes.

A pit of snakes and scorpions would pretty much suggest no possible survival. A Lion's den 'maybe."

Because families were broken up, much effort was made to determine the likelihood of death. Obviously you are not a religious Jew so you might think these are silly traditions, but believe me it is taken very seriously.

And this is part of why the gas chambers came out, because people KNEW that if they went "to the right" they were gassed (a snake and scorpion pit) and if they went to the left they went to the lions den.

Even if the holocaust wasn't intended to be an intentional extermination of all Jews, the evidence discovered by trying to sort out who died, was one of the reasons we came to know so much about it.

So we know there were gas chambers and Jews in large numbers died in them because if they weren't killed in gas chambers, there are a whole bunch of adulterers and bastard children in the Jewish community today?

 

[Dogzilla]

Yes many people did remember it very clearly. That's why they are considered witnesses. You're starting to get it now!


We're not talking about soap. Is that what you are left debating now that everything else you have said has been toppled?

It is understandable how the urban legend of the soap came to about. Gossip and innuendo throughout the camps.

However that doesn't change the reality of the thousands and thousands of witnesses that survived the camp and what they have seen and told.

Sorry, it just doesn't.

You just got through saying that people lie and exaggerate all the time. Are you suggesting that we should just believe everything a survivor says because they're all a bunch of liars just like everybody else?

If the holocaust was so gosh darn traumatic, why lie and exaggerate? Isn't the truth bad enough?

 

[Dogzilla]

Someone watched a Donahue clip! Oh my. Pesky little thing, those witnesses

Yes, and those pesky little witnesses are so believable.

AND SHE PRODUCED BABIES FOR ADOLF HITLER AND I VAS BORN IN LEBENSBORN, THE SPECIAL CLINIC NEXT TO DACHAU AND I HAD A DEFECT ON MY LEFT EAR AND YOSEF MENGELE VEN HE ZAW IT HE TOOK ME TO EXPERIMENTS AND I ZAW ZEE JEWISH TORTURES!!! I SAW EVERYTHING!! I SAW SOAP MADE FROM THE PEOPLE!! I SAW LAMPSHADES!!! I SAW IT ALL! AND THERE ARE GAS STOVES!! AND TODAY I AM EMOTIONALLY DESTROYED SO I HAVE TO GO SEE A PSYCHIATRIST!!

 

[TSR]

You just got through saying that people lie and exaggerate all the time.

.
No, TT did not say that. Zie said that it was "only human". It is also only human to want to care for our children.

Does this mean no one ever abuses or neglects their kids?

It's only human to display emotion.

Does this mean that everyone cries at the end of "Old Yeller?"

It's only human not to want to die.

Does this man that no one ever puts themselves in possibly deadly situations?

Do you really want to go there?
.

Are you suggesting that we should just believe everything a survivor says because they're all a bunch of liars just like everybody else?

.
Straw man much? Can you point to anyone, anywhere who says we should 'just believe' a survivor -- let alone for this reason?
.

If the holocaust was so gosh darn traumatic, why lie and exaggerate? Isn't the truth bad enough?

.
Yes, yes it was. And trauma can do some strange things to the traumatized. Each in different ways -- that's only human. But here's the thing: trauma tends to be personal. Which is why the hostages in the Norrmalmstorg robbery (note that only ~25% of hostages react this way) came to sympathize with Jan Erik Olsson -- but none of them ever disputed he was there to rob the bank.

So, if your thesis is correct, all of the survivor testimony has to be tossed. Okay. What about the testimony of the Nazis themselves, the documentary evidence, the physical evidence, the demographic evidence?

What happened to Henio?
.

 

[truethat]

The gas chambers are one essential element of the holocaust for which there is extremely weak evidence. Cremation of bodies is an element of the holocaust for which there is no doubt. Crematoriums were built and bodies were incinerated in these crematoriums. They did not burn bodies as quickly or easily as the official holocaust story claims. They weren't completely reduced to ash so that nothing remained. And nobody was burned in a pit. But bodies were cremated. Don't lump gassing and cremation together.

Maybe Kageki will listen to you on this. I have been saying this to him for pages.

So we know there were gas chambers and Jews in large numbers died in them because if they weren't killed in gas chambers, there are a whole bunch of adulterers and bastard children in the Jewish community today?

You just got through saying that people lie and exaggerate all the time. Are you suggesting that we should just believe everything a survivor says because they're all a bunch of liars just like everybody else?

If the holocaust was so gosh darn traumatic, why lie and exaggerate? Isn't the truth bad enough?

These two statements show your attempt to get a rise out of other posters. You rely on emotional pleading and anger as a way of suggesting people are illogical about the discussion. This is sort of the backbone of your position. That people are so emotional about the topic they are not interested in the facts.

Unfortunately it doesn't work on me.

There is no "IF" in the statement that the holocaust was traumatic. But you said the "holocaust." At the point that it was traumatic it wasn't traumatic because it was a "holocaust;" it was traumatic because people were sick and starving and working in camps where people were dying all around them. The cremation of bodies was an effort to deal with the large numbers of deaths in the camp. People in the camps were not aware of a "Holocaust" at this point. They were living in a traumatic situation and it is understandable that things could be misunderstood.

Also how interesting that there has rarely been a situation where the Aguna issue came up because a husband came back after being sent to the "snake and scorpion pit"

Opportunists and mentally ill people have often used the Holocaust to get attention or make money by suggesting they were survivors. This has happened with 911 as well. But the reason they were able to get away with it for so long is because it actually happened. That pesky little fact.

You are ignoring witness testimony as if there is just a handful of witnesses and a large number of those are lying. But this is not the case. There are thousands and thousands of witnesses and a handful of outright liars. There is likely to be hundreds of witnesses who misunderstood what they saw. This is understandable. But there is plenty of testimony that indicates the reality of the camps. This testimony comes from both Germans and inmates.

 

[truethat]

Now lets break it down. When people came into the camps they separated them into groups. Why did they do that? The witnesses have all been in agreement of this. If it was a "ghetto" and work camp, as has been suggested by kageki, why would they not let the families stay together? Why would they separate men from women etc.

If the goal was deportation, separating the families would make things very difficult later when they decided to deport people no?

And when you run a camp, if you have people living in family groups, it is more conducive to a smoothly run camp. When the Japanese were placed in the internment camps they did not separate the families.

So what was the purpose of separating people?


In addition let's just look at the situation logically. If I were running a camp that had huge amounts of casualties and sickness and limited resources, I would consider exterminating the people who were likely to die anyway. Unfortunately the situation was that dire. Feeding a sick person for a week only to have them die anyway is just wasting food and resources. It makes total logical sense that the Nazis would exterminate those who would just die anyway. Using gas would be the most effective way of killing large numbers of people in the most efficient way possible. And this is what they did.

 

[truethat]

What is the point of discussing Jewish law relative to the gas chambers? There "is so much documentation" of what?

One of the reasons the Holocaust is so different from other mass murders in history is because of the large number of documentation of witnesses. Think of others, how much documentation do we have from witnesses. It comes nowhere as close.

The reason is that the women survivors needed to deal with Aguna issues before they could move on with their lives. As I said, it is ironic that their religion is what gave such testimony to the events that happened there.

I'm sure this pisses you off and that you've never heard of it before. Try actually studying the holocaust instead of webblogs and Donhue clips from 1994. You'll be surprised what you learn.

 

[Walter Ego]

The Pink Triangle

Excuse me for not following this thread closely, but have our Jew Haters explained yet why they love Hitler and the Nazis so much? The general drift from the Jew Haters seems to be that the Jews were asking for it. Here's another group that suffered under the Nazis our Jew Haters probably don't much care for. Were they asking for it too?

 

[Arcade22]

Excuse me for not following this thread closely, but have our Jew Haters explained yet why they love Hitler and the Nazis so much? The general drift from the Jew Haters seems to be that the Jews were asking for it. Here's another group that suffered under the Nazis our Jew Haters probably don't much care for. Were they asking for it too?

Well i can image a response going like this: "The homosexuals were caused by the judeo-Bolshevistic cosmopolitan culture that the Jews infected the German country with so they could undermine the power and supremacy of the Aryan race. Naturally in order to uproot this sinister force they needed to be cured or exterminated."