Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Chaos]

Do you have any, ya know, evidence thingy that everybody sent to a concentration camp was guilty of being born what they were and nothing else?

That´s not how it works - how often do people have to explain this to you?

The Nazis and their worshippers here need to explain what those people were guilty of. If they can´t the default assumption is that they were innocent.

 

[Thunder]

Do you have any, ya know, evidence thingy that everybody sent to a concentration camp was guilty of being born what they were and nothing else?

are you suggesting that the millions of Jews sent to concentration and death camps were sent there for reasons other than their religion/ethnicity?

maybe perhaps, they really WERE all Communists and enemies of the human race?

 

[kageki]

Ok so let's take a look at this. You are using extreme language throughout the statement and it renders it pointless.

Everybody..........well not "everybody" I'm sure there were people that got caught up in the mess. History has born this out repeatedly.

Was guilty............how are they "guilty." That's a bit weird. Are you perceiving it as a indicator for selection to be sent to the camps YEP. The same way Japanese were sent to internment camps in the US. Of course they aren't going to say it's because they are "Japanes" but that they are at war with the Japanese. Think about that for a second. According to your argument, it wasn't that the Japanese were Japanese, that was the problem. It was rather that they came from a country that had attacked the US. If Korea had done it, they'd have rounded up the Koreans. I f the Germans had done it, they would have rounded up the Germans......etc

True.

But the end result was that Japanese were rounded up. And so even if the intention wasn't anti Japanese........the reality of what occurred is that Japanese were rounded up. This is also true of the Jews. The pleading for "that's not what the intention was" doesn't change the fact that this is what the result was.

Nothing else............well again we're going back to the rationalization that the Japanese could be "potential spies." Were some of the Japanese potential spies. I'm sure. But the rest that were rounded up were rounded up on a suspicion. Not a reality. The rest of the Japanese were not spies.

Take the Jews, some could be considered enemies of the state. But for what reason?

Also since you asked, yes please let us know how many calories were provided for the inmates in Auschwitz.

I think what would help is if you can imagine if the Jews had a country back then.

Germans had a different reason, but would you even accept the reason? How about for the Spanish expulsion?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html

It's not exactly the first time the Jews have been kicked out of countries.

 

[kageki]

are you suggesting that the millions of Jews sent to concentration and death camps were sent there for reasons other than their religion/ethnicity?

maybe perhaps, they really WERE all Communists and enemies of the human race?

Not the whole human race...

To Germany.

 

[TSR]

.
Really? Henio Zytomirski was a dedicated Communist and therefore an enemy of the State?

Remind us again what this 9 year old had actually *done* that you would say such things?
.

 

[kageki]

.
Really? Henio Zytomirski was a dedicated Communist and therefore an enemy of the State?

Remind us again what this 9 year old had actually *done* that you would say such things?
.

Let me know about those Japanese-Americans while you are it, young and old. Some of those family members even served in the US military. Did they also have to stick them in the middle of the desert in one of the most inhospitable environments? Not for any good reason I can think of considering how big the US is with plenty of other options.

 

[TSR]

Let me know about those Japanese-Americans while you are it, young and old. Some of those family members even served in the US military. Did they also have to stick them in the middle of the desert in one of the most inhospitable environments? Not for any good reason I can think of considering how big the US is with plenty of other options.

.
No, they didn't have to, and it was deplorable that they did.

And reparations were made.

But tell us all: how many Japanese were gassed in these interment camps?

How many died from diseases they would not have contracted had they not been sent there?

How many of them were worked to death?






What's that?







Exactly *none*?








And even if any had -- this excuses what was done to Henio ... how?


Keep running away from answering the hard questions, you 'brave' aryan warrior, you.

You're not even fooling yourself at this point...
.

 

[little grey rabbit]

But tell us all: how many Japanese were gassed in these interment camps?

Approximately the same number as that of Jewish people being gassed in German camps.

 

[Revdude]

are you suggesting that the millions of Jews sent to concentration and death camps were sent there for reasons other than their religion/ethnicity?

maybe perhaps, they really WERE all Communists and enemies of the human race?

They were sent there because for the most part, no other countries wanted them.

it's no secret the Nazi's wanted to be rid of the Jews, especially after the declaration of economic boycott in March of 1933. That effort led by the World Jewish Conference led to the dismissal of Jews from high-ranking positions within the Reich, and more than likely was the main impetus behind the creation of the Nuremberg Laws.

To this end, the Hitler government enacted legislation to expedite the effort of removing the Jews from Germany.

First, they negotiated the Ha'avara Transfer Agreement.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_agreement

The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was signed on 25 August 1933 after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany (die Zionistische Vereinigung für Deutschland), the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the orders of the Jewish Agency, an official executive agency in then Palestine) and the economic authorities of the Nazi regime of Germany.

The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine. While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to give up most of their possessions to Germany before departing. Those assets could later be obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.[1] Approximately 60,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine under this agreement, bringing with them $100 million (almost $1.7 billion in 2009 dollars).[2] The main proponent of the Ha'avara Agreement was Haim Arlosoroff.

One of the main problems with the Agreement was the fact that before the Jews were allowed to emigrate, they had to show financial independence because Germany was in no financial position to provide resources for them.

Ultimately, this led to the creation of a conference at Evain France in the summer of 1938. Delegates from 32 countries met July 6 to 17 at the Hotel Royal for shared discussions about various ways of aiding the German Jews. Everyone expressed compassion for the poor Jews who were driven from their home-country and affirmed resolutions stating the absolute necessity to find places where those Jews could be resettled. However, each and every speaker emphasized that it so happened that his own country was not in the position to accept a significant number of immigrants.

Out of this conference came another agreement. The Rublee-Wohlthat paper.
This agreement concerned itself with the emigration of the German Jews to other countries and therefore affected the greater number of Jews. This accord also required Jews to show financial independence prior to emigration. The onset of war, effectively put and end to both efforts.

Then of course, there is the case of the SS St. Louis.
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis

The SS St. Louis sailed from Hamburg to Cuba on May 13, 1939, carrying seven non-Jewish and 930 Jewish refugees (mainly German) seeking asylum from Nazi persecution.[1][2] On the ship’s arrival in Cuba, the Cuban government under Federico Laredo Brú refused the passengers entry as either tourists (laws related to tourist visas had recently been changed) or under political asylum. During negotiations, the government requested an additional $500 visa fee per passenger, money which most of the refugees did not have. The demands prompted a near-mutiny. Two passengers attempted suicide, and dozens more threatened to do the same. However, 29 of the refugees managed to disembark at Havana.[3]

What all of the above show is the extraordinary efforts Germany went to in an effort to accommodate the Jews, even after the worldwide Jewish leadership called for economic war (back in 1933) to destroy the German economy.

A good number of Jews were either communists or at the very least sympathizers. After Germany outlawed the Communist Party, these people essentially became criminals if they continued their activities. Efforts were also made to coerce German youth into the Communist Party. While the Germans created their "Hitler Youth" program, the German Communists had their own youth program known as te Young Communist League of Germany.

Despite all of the above efforts, Germany was not very successful in removing the Jews, so they had little recourse but to congregate them, first in isolated neighborhoods (ghettos's) then into the camp system.

 

[Wroclaw]

A good number of Jews were either communists or at the very least sympathizers.

False.

The vast majority of Jews in Weimar Germany voted SPD.

The outlawing of any political party by Hitler et al. constituted a violation of the rule of law. Breaking the law to declare other people law-breakers is an invalid act per se.

You people can try to gild the lily all you like, but in the end, the Jews were victimized for no reason other than their being Jewish.

 

[Chaos]

Not to mention that this "declaration of economic boycott" didn´t just fall from the sky. It was blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain that Hitler and his ilk were deeply anti-semitic to begin with.

So, when a guy comes to power who has stated his belief that the Jews are to blame for everything bad that ever happened, and his intention to punish them for their alleged misdeed, OF COURSE the World Jewish Conference won´t just bend over and take it.

 

[kageki]

False.

The vast majority of Jews in Weimar Germany voted SPD.

The outlawing of any political party by Hitler et al. constituted a violation of the rule of law. Breaking the law to declare other people law-breakers is an invalid act per se.

You people can try to gild the lily all you like, but in the end, the Jews were victimized for no reason other than their being Jewish.

Just as much as the Japanese-Americans. It was a war:
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

Description of a gas chamber execution:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods#gas

Gas Chamber


In 1924, the use of cyanide gas was introduced as Nevada sought a more humane way of executing its inmates. Gee Jon was the first person executed by lethal gas. The state tried to pump cyanide gas into Jon's cell while he slept. This proved impossible because the gas leaked from his cell, so the gas chamber was constructed. (Bohm, 1999) Today, five states authorize lethal gas as a method of execution, but all have lethal injection as an alternative method. A federal court in California found this method to be cruel and unusual punishment. For execution by this method, the condemned person is strapped to a chair in an airtight chamber. Below the chair rests a pail of sulfuric acid. A long stethoscope is typically affixed to the inmate so that a doctor outside the chamber can pronounce death. Once everyone has left the chamber, the room is sealed. The warden then gives a signal to the executioner who flicks a lever that releases crystals of sodium cyanide into the pail. This causes a chemical reaction that releases hydrogen cyanide gas. (Weisberg, 1991) The prisoner is instructed to breathe deeply to speed up the process. Most prisoners, however, try to hold their breath, and some struggle. The inmate does not lose consciousness immediately. According to former San Quenton, California, Penitentiary warden, Clifton Duffy, "At first there is evidence of extreme horror, pain, and strangling. The eyes pop. The skin turns purple and the victim begins to drool." (Weisberg, 1991) Caryl Chessman, before he died in California's gas chamber in 1960 told reporters that he would nod his head if it hurt. Witnesses said he nodded his head for several minutes. (Ecenbarger, 1994) According to Dr. Richard Traystman of John Hopkins University School of Medicine, "The person is unquestionably experiencing pain and extreme anxiety...The sensation is similar to the pain felt by a person during a heart attack, where essentially the heart is being deprived of oxygen." The inmate dies from hypoxia, the cutting-off of oxygen to the brain. (Weisberg, 1991) At postmortem, an exhaust fan sucks the poison air out of the chamber, and the corpse is sprayed with ammonia to neutralize any remaining traces of cyanide. About a half an hour later, oderlies enter the chamber, wearing gas masks and rubber gloves. Their training manual advises them to ruffle the victim's hair to release any trapped cyanide gas before removing the deceased. (Weisberg, 1991)

 

[Revdude]

False.

The vast majority of Jews in Weimar Germany voted SPD.

The outlawing of any political party by Hitler et al. constituted a violation of the rule of law. Breaking the law to declare other people law-breakers is an invalid act per se.

You people can try to gild the lily all you like, but in the end, the Jews were victimized for no reason other than their being Jewish.

So you are actually saying that a duly elected government body can not change laws within their own country?

And let's add to the mix.. citizenship laws.
Was Germany within their right to change citizenship laws?

 

[Revdude]

Not to mention that this "declaration of economic boycott" didn´t just fall from the sky. It was blindingly obvious to anyone with a brain that Hitler and his ilk were deeply anti-semitic to begin with.

So, when a guy comes to power who has stated his belief that the Jews are to blame for everything bad that ever happened, and his intention to punish them for their alleged misdeed, OF COURSE the World Jewish Conference won´t just bend over and take it.

Are you saying that as soon as Hitler came to power, he threatened to punish Jews?
You really don't know anything about this issue, do you.

This had nothing to do with "Jewishness", but it had everything to do with Hitler refusing loans from International Bankers (Rothschilds) and the fact that Hitler took Germany off of the Gold Standard, thereby locking out the moneylenders from lucrative lending.

 

[kageki]

So you are actually saying that a duly elected government body can not change laws within their own country?

And let's add to the mix.. citizenship laws.
Was Germany within their right to change citizenship laws?

http://www.revblog.codoh.com/2011/02/the-latest-effort-to-combat-denial-i-e-holocaust-revisionism/

The National Socialists accused the Jews of subversive activities, and for being the carriers of the Bolshevik/Communist virus. Thus, they wanted all Jews living within their sphere of influence ousted; the case for mass murder has yet to be made. The Evian Committee stated: “Not one of the participating countries denies the unassailable right of the German government, to take measures in regards to certain citizens, when those measures are within its rights as a sovereign nation”[35] Problem was, nobody wanted the Jews so when war broke out, forced deportation east, or forced labor, became the norm.

 

[Thunder]

This had nothing to do with "Jewishness", but it had everything to do with Hitler refusing loans from International Bankers (Rothschilds) and the fact that Hitler took Germany off of the Gold Standard, thereby locking out the moneylenders from lucrative lending.

evidence?

hmm....looks like your blaiming the German Jews for how they were treated by the Nazis.

you know, its funny how you claim that Hitler refused "Jewish money", while others claim Hitler was funded by Jewish bankers.

 

[Wroclaw]

So you are actually saying that a duly elected government body can not change laws within their own country?

Germany was governed by a constitution, right? Let's first agree upon that. I don't think that's really debatable.

Now, under the provisions of the Enabling Act, which was legislatively approved, Hitler banned several political parties, yes? Again, not really debatable.

Here are the key parts of the Act:

Die von der Reichsregierung beschlossenen Reichsgesetze können von der Reichsverfassung abweichen, soweit sie nicht die Einrichtung des Reichstags und des Reichsrats als solche zum Gegenstand haben. Die Rechte des Reichspräsidenten bleiben unberührt.

The office of the president and the Reichsrat were not to be abrogated constitutionally. Unfortunately, in declaring himself Reichspräsident in 1934, rather than conducting an election, Hitler violated the constitution and the Enabling Act. Furthermore, Hitler had also dissolved the Reichsrat, which was in violation of both the constitution and the Enabling Act.

Let's continue:

Dieses Gesetz tritt mit dem Tage seiner Verkündung in Kraft. Es tritt mit dem 1. April 1937 außer Kraft, es tritt ferner außer Kraft, wenn die gegenwärtige Reichsregierung durch eine andere abgelöst wird.

Hitler was supposed to have the law reviewed by April 1, 1937, or cede dictatorial power. At that point, besides already having violated the constitution by declaring himself president, Hitler was ruling without constitutional authority after April 1, 1937. (I.e., the law was only good for four years.) In short, after April 1, 1937, Hitler was no longer ruling Germany legitimately.

But consider this also: Hitler had already had the KPD deputies arrested. That being the case, and given the KPD's opposition to the Enabling Act, given that the KPD was the third largest party in Germany, and given the use of the SA on the day of the vote, it's quite possible that the vote for the Act itself was illegitimate and unconstitutional.

All that being said, the argument for the banning of the SPD having been "legal" is pretty weak.

And let's add to the mix.. citizenship laws.
Was Germany within their right to change citizenship laws?

Of course, but it was done in 1935, when parties had been banned and, therefore, there is some question as to whether these laws would have remained in effect after April 1, 1937, when Hitler was constitutionally bound to re-convene the Reichstag.

Furthermore, the very language of the acts in 1935 that re-defined citizenship were passed, they were done in language that did not alter or amend the constitution, which means that, after April 1, 1937, they lacked force of law.

When are you guys going to get that Nazi Germany was an illegitimate state for most of its existence?

 

[truethat]

I wish Thunder and others would leave the emotional reactionary comments out because they just distract from the facts. The facts show that the actions were wrong without emotional pleading.

I think what would help is if you can imagine if the Jews had a country back then.

Germans had a different reason, but would you even accept the reason? How about for the Spanish expulsion?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html

It's not exactly the first time the Jews have been kicked out of countries.

The Jews didn't have a country. And yes Jews do have a history of not being wanted. They have been kicked out of many countries around the world. So have Gypsies. People do not like them at all. It's unfortunate but a fact.

However, how do you get from not liking a group of people to rationalizing their execution?

Let me know about those Japanese-Americans while you are it, young and old. Some of those family members even served in the US military. Did they also have to stick them in the middle of the desert in one of the most inhospitable environments? Not for any good reason I can think of considering how big the US is with plenty of other options.

Yes and again this is wrong. When America did this to the Japanese we were wrong. There may be certain justifications and rationalizing when it comes to understanding the attitudes of the times. However history describes this as wrong. So what the Nazi's did was also wrong. You seem to be trying to justify it using the Japanese, which doesn't work since America has long acknowledged it was wrong to do this.

Also you say "inhospitable" so how many died? This is not to expurgate the actions of the Americans but rather to look at the reality that it IS possible to keep people in a camp for a long period of time WITHOUT 50% of the camp dying on a daily basis.

Not the whole human race...

To Germany.

How were they all a threat to Germany? And I'm glad by the way that you are admitting that they WERE rounded up for being Jewish and targeted for being Jewish. A few pages back you seemed to be saying otherwise.

Also how were the people who were "half Jewish" or some other delineation a threat? People were rounded up just for being Jewish by birth, not for actually being practicing Jews or political people. Are you suggesting that poor uneducated peasants with no Jewish tradition in their lives were ALSO a threat to the state?

And America used the same rationalization to relocate the Native Americans in this country. We were ALSO wrong to do this. So if it is acknowledged that this sort of thing is a violation of the most basic human rights, why do you keep justifying it?

They were sent there because for the most part, no other countries wanted them.

it's no secret the Nazi's wanted to be rid of the Jews, especially after the declaration of economic boycott in March of 1933. That effort led by the World Jewish Conference led to the dismissal of Jews from high-ranking positions within the Reich, and more than likely was the main impetus behind the creation of the Nuremberg Laws.

To this end, the Hitler government enacted legislation to expedite the effort of removing the Jews from Germany.

First, they negotiated the Ha'avara Transfer Agreement.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_agreement

Indeed "they wanted to be "rid" of them" is what we have been arguing. Others are suggesting that it is just a coincidence that the majority of the people killed in Auschwitz were Jewish.

One of the main problems with the Agreement was the fact that before the Jews were allowed to emigrate, they had to show financial independence because Germany was in no financial position to provide resources for them.

Ultimately, this led to the creation of a conference at Evain France in the summer of 1938. Delegates from 32 countries met July 6 to 17 at the Hotel Royal for shared discussions about various ways of aiding the German Jews. Everyone expressed compassion for the poor Jews who were driven from their home-country and affirmed resolutions stating the absolute necessity to find places where those Jews could be resettled. However, each and every speaker emphasized that it so happened that his own country was not in the position to accept a significant number of immigrants.

Out of this conference came another agreement. The Rublee-Wohlthat paper.
This agreement concerned itself with the emigration of the German Jews to other countries and therefore affected the greater number of Jews. This accord also required Jews to show financial independence prior to emigration. The onset of war, effectively put and end to both efforts.

Then of course, there is the case of the SS St. Louis.
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis



What all of the above show is the extraordinary efforts Germany went to in an effort to accommodate the Jews, even after the worldwide Jewish leadership called for economic war (back in 1933) to destroy the German economy.

A good number of Jews were either communists or at the very least sympathizers. After Germany outlawed the Communist Party, these people essentially became criminals if they continued their activities. Efforts were also made to coerce German youth into the Communist Party. While the Germans created their "Hitler Youth" program, the German Communists had their own youth program known as te Young Communist League of Germany.

Despite all of the above efforts, Germany was not very successful in removing the Jews, so they had little recourse but to congregate them, first in isolated neighborhoods (ghettos's) then into the camp system.

Are we to believe then, that faced with a desired expulsion of the Jews and a reality that no one would take them, that it doesn't seem to you that the Nazi's had decided the best course of action would probably be to just exterminate as many as possible?

When you are adding up the facts you are simply creating the justification in the minds of the Nazis for "getting rid" of the Jews. As was stated, they had no country and no one wanted them and everyone wanted them OUT. So is it just a coincidence that so many died? In camps that were run like death camps?

Just as much as the Japanese-Americans. It was a war:
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/jdecwar.html

Description of a gas chamber execution:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods#gas

You posted this why? It seems like you agree that gas chambers were being used.


Also to both of you. You suggest that they were rounded up and put into camps to be a sort of Ghetto. Obviously if they did not intend to kill them, this would be considered a LONG TERM PLAN and PERMANENT SOLUTION. The Jews would live in the Ghetto of the Prison Camps.

Please show me these plans? Where is the funding? Do you honestly think that the Nazi's plan was to put the Jews in these camps forever and ever and let them live there while the German government paid for it??????

Please justify this rationalization.


Also now you can understand why Israel is so important to the Jews. Your entire rationalization is that "No one wanted them and they had nowhere to go so they were considered a threat to the country and this justified imprisoning them in camps."

That's about it in a nutshell and why Jews fight so hard to keep Israel.

Tahdah..........welcome to History 101

 

[Chaos]

Are you saying that as soon as Hitler came to power, he threatened to punish Jews?
You really don't know anything about this issue, do you.

This had nothing to do with "Jewishness", but it had everything to do with Hitler refusing loans from International Bankers (Rothschilds) and the fact that Hitler took Germany off of the Gold Standard, thereby locking out the moneylenders from lucrative lending.

No. I am saying that Hitler threatened to "punish" the Jews before he came to power.

Or are you going to pretend he never wrote "Mein Kampf"?

 

[Chaos]

So you are actually saying that a duly elected government body can not change laws within their own country?

That isn´t what he said at all, and you know it.

He said a government cannot ignore the laws within their own country.