Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

. . . I do not want ready a whole book about the subject. . . .

This desire pretty much insures that you will remain ignorant about the subject of the Holocaust. Your reduction of the various forms of evidence - which exist in enormous volume - to film and now forensics can only be because you "do not want ready a whole book," which would describe and analyze the very evidence you claim you want.

This kind of approach might be called "circular illogic." You won't get anywhere with it. But you will preserve your ability to reject what you haven't read and studied. Is that what you are after?

 

[abaddon]

I have been doing military research about World War II and I really know how much the Germans registered and planned everything. They were extremely organized, so there must be a kind of direct evidence which shows how the whole plan of mass extermination, the so called "final solution", was designed.

When asked about Himmler, the response was:

No, who he was?

Where I can hear the voice recording?

When and where that was recorded?

It is in English?

"military research", right.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Does anyone here know who Hitler is? I've been researching German history and wondered, since I saw a YouTube showing all of German history and they showed this Hitler guy speechifying.

 

[tsig]

Does anyone here know who Hitler is? I've been researching German history and wondered, since I saw a YouTube showing all of German history and they showed this Hitler guy speechifying.

If he didn't speak English and we don't have a video of it it didn't happen.

 

[SnakeTongue]

What part of "And don't try to move the goalpost now" didn't you understand? Your post was:

So you wanted:
a) a video with
b) people in it being killed in
c) a gas chamber
d) by germans


It's in my last post, I'm done. What you just did is raise the bar, now suddenly I have to prove to you too, that the video is not staged. This is a sceptics board, we all know the moving the goalpost fallacy.

No, you do not have to prove anything. You just did not provided a footage of a gas chamber being used to kill people.

This video was of course taken by the germans. It was found by the allies. But hey, since you are the one, who now claims that this one is staged: PROVE IT! Who staged it, who are the actors in the video, when was it staged, and so on and on, you have absolutly nothing.

I did not claimed anything. You are doing imaginary assumptions.

Hmm that's odd. When I read the rest of my last post, I can see it adressing your post well, I even mentioned the logical fallacies in it, you commited. So again, how stupid do you think I'm? Everyone knows this standard answer for a post, that just kicked your racist nutty ideas in the balls. So did you do the math on the graves? Do you have evidence for Treblinka just being a transit camp?

No, you don't have anything. Everytime one asks you holocaust deniers for positive evidence you just put your finger in the ears, dance around and sing lalala.

I think you are stupid as much as you create assumptions about a person you do not really know.

Yeah, as you can see, you are not the only wasting his time. I did get a warning for my last post for the breach of the rule "Attack the argument, not the arguer", which is kind of ironic, but never mind, I better just shut up, before I get banned.

Oh... Ironic.

You do realise, that even the video was recorded inside the museum, the film that is shown is still real?

Yes, I do.

Not just a room, a room, that was about to being filled with the fumes of two cars. THIS is called gassing, it's exactly what you wanted.

So, where is a footage of a real homicidal gas chamber? I do not want one which you think is "about to being filled with the fumes of two cars". I want one showing the whole operation of a homicidal gas chamber.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Yanking of chains or Stundie level post? "No, who he was?" "It is in English?"

What a bizarre discussion.

This desire pretty much insures that you will remain ignorant about the subject of the Holocaust. Your reduction of the various forms of evidence - which exist in enormous volume - to film and now forensics can only be because you "do not want ready a whole book," which would describe and analyze the very evidence you claim you want.

What great work of assumptions you do.

This kind of approach might be called "circular illogic." You won't get anywhere with it. But you will preserve your ability to reject what you haven't read and studied. Is that what you are after?

Circular logic? It is something like you and others are doing? Diverting the subject from my initial question to focus the debate over my person and not over the issue under discussion?

You did not provided one single piece of evidence... But I am still waiting.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Does anyone here know who Hitler is? I've been researching German history and wondered, since I saw a YouTube showing all of German history and they showed this Hitler guy speechifying.

When asked about Himmler, the response was:


"military research", right.

If he didn't speak English and we don't have a video of it it didn't happen.

So, after all that assumptions, none of you provided one single piece of evidence.

You are a complete failure.

 

[A'isha]

So, after all that assumptions, none of you provided one single piece of evidence.

You are a complete failure.

Have you started reading the information in the three links I gave you?

Especially that last one...

 

[Mynott]

There are many places to begin in understanding the Holocaust.Unfortunately their is no film of victims being gassed this due to the fact that the operations conducted at e.g the Rheinhard death camps like Treblinka were conducted under the highest of state secrecy for obvious reasons.Film and photography was strictly for hidden but some were taken by SS offers were taken as in the case of Treblinka. But we do have volumes of eyewitness testimony both surviving inmates and SS officers themselves.I've already referred to Franz Stangl Commodant of Treblinka and his assistant Franz Kurgen .Survivors testimony include the excellent Surving Treblinka by Samuel Willenberg.
Another angle of approach is the Regius Professor of Modern History Cambrige Richard Evans who has written extensively about The Third Reich including the reality of The Holocaust.He was notable as a Defence witness in David Irving's libel action against Deborah Lipstadt for suggesting he was a falsifier of History,a holocaust denier.It was the onus on her to prove thus and she won and Prof Evans apperared for the Defence.Do read his book about the the Trial, Lying about Hitler.Neeedless to say The Defence won and demonstrated that Irving was just that ,a falsifier of History and the Holocaust.
So you can say there is no easy You Tube path showing the gas chambers up and running and inmates being herded in.But there are masses of eyewitness both SS andVictims.I'll have to sat though there is Aerial Reccinisance photos of Auschwitze of Victims queing outsde a gas chamber.
More about Richard Evans here,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Evans

There are numerous others like Laurence Rees,Christophes Browning.Ian Kershaw,Alan Bullock all of whom BTW are Gentiles.

 

[Moss]

So, where is a footage of a real homicidal gas chamber? I do not want one which you think is "about to being filled with the fumes of two cars". I want one showing the whole operation of a homicidal gas chamber.

Why do you assume that such a thing would exists in the first place?

 

[LemmyCaution]

So, after all that assumptions, none of you provided one single piece of evidence.

You are a complete failure.

Wrong.

ANTPogo provided these: http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/browning and http://hdot.org/en/trial/defense/van

I provided this: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/

And now this: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/

Start reading.

Edit: Whoopsie, looking back through the thread for what ANTPogo meant by 3 links he'd provided, thinking he could not have meant in addition to the 2 from HDOT the Wiki article on the obscure Nazi leader Heinrich Himmler (http://books.google.com/books?id=GB...onepage&q=longerich "heinrich himmler&f=false), I found that ANTPogo had previously linked to Pressac's study of the Birkenau gas chambers. By popular demand, as it were, and because it conforms to his stated interest so well, SnakeTongue should start with that link.

 

[LemmyCaution]

What great work of assumptions you do.

No, what I stated was not an assumption but fact. Knowing something about this, like who Himmler was and what language he spoke and what he said at Posen, and knowing what evidence exists, I know that you will not be able to learn what you say you want to learn by the method you say you want to use.

It is that simple.

 

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

No, you do not have to prove anything. You just did not provided a footage of a gas chamber being used to kill people.

Wow, a holocaust denier in denial mode, that's hardly surprising.

I presented you with a video, which showed how people were let into a building, that was about to be filled with the fumes of two cars. THIS is exactly what you wanted, and just saying "no" was never in the history of humanity an argument.

I did not claimed anything. You are doing imaginary assumptions.

I misunderstood this part from you:

What you provide was a video of a constructed experiment inside a museum.

But it doesn't matter, since even if this was just an experiment, it proves, that people were gassed by the nazis, period. Or do you wanna tell me, that the carbon monoxide in the fumes is completly harmless for these people?

So, where is a footage of a real homicidal gas chamber? I do not want one which you think is "about to being filled with the fumes of two cars". I want one showing the whole operation of a homicidal gas chamber.

It was presented to you and again, you are just moving the goalpost. Now suddenly just a video is not enough anymore, now it has to be a video of the whole operation and if we had that, it would have to be a colored video with 5.1 sound and a full HD resolution. Nobody here falls for this kind of crap, again, this is sceptics forum.

And I don't just "think", that this chamber is about to being filled with fumes, you can see the pipes from the cars going through the wall of that room, which is about to be filled with people.

What a coincide, gassing by the fumes of engines, exactly what all the evil jews AND nazis from Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec said. But that doesn't bother you.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Have you started reading the information in the three links I gave you?

Especially that last one...

Yes, I have been reading many articles. Thank you very much.

 

[SnakeTongue]

So far, I found a testimony from Joseph G. Burg which which refute the argument about the supposed mass extermination performed by the Germans during the second world war.

The 1988 'Holocaust' Testimony Of Joseph Burg

In view of this testimony, I did not find one single piece of evidence (no document, film or picture) which directly prove so far the existence of any intention by the Germans to exterminate a group of people:

In his books, Burg dealt with the subject of the alleged Nazi extermination camps. Burg had spoken to hundreds of people who had been in Auschwitz and had visited the camp in the fall of 1945. Burg had wanted to see the crematoria, the hospitals, and in particular, a large new bakery. He also wanted to find the gas chambers although at that time gassings were not yet in fashion. He did not find any gas chambers. Burg formed the opinion that there were no "extermination" camps at all, that gas chambers had never existed and that there had been no plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe. These opinions were published in his books and in his correspondence with Zündel. (25-6825 to 6838)

There is a man which visited the supposed "death" camps soon after the end the war. That man never spot one single homicidal gas chamber, the main argument used to prove the so called "holocaust". In view of this fact, it is reasonable to understand why no one can provide a single piece of direct evidence to prove the existence of gas chambers or a German master plan to exterminate people.

After the war, Burg heard a lot about the allegations that people were gassed at Auschwitz and Majdanek. He proved that it was either out of stupidity or propaganda. Up to now, he pointed out, no document had been found showing who gave the order for gassings, who built them and where they were built. The German authorities especially had been called the "super-bureaucracis." It therefore couldn't be that after all these years not a document could be found. (25 6840)

Burg testified that he spoke to hundreds of people who serviced and operated the crematoria but the people who operated gas chambers were impossible to find. Nobody had published anything in which it was claimed that he worked in a gassing institution for human beings. There was literature about gassing that was completely contradictory. Why? Because it was all made up. These opinions were published in his books. (25-6840)

The above excerpt reinforce the fact: not one single document exist to prove the existence of a plan of mass extermination.

The German Reich wanted to get the Jews out: how and where were secondary questions. The people under Göring dealing with the Jewish question picked up a plan which came from the founder of the Zionist movement, Theodor Herzl, which involved moving the Jews to Uganda or Madagascar. Both of these colonies belonged to France. The plan did not work out, but the existence of the plan alone proved logically that a liquidation of the Jews did not exist. Their labour was needed as well. Burg emphasized there was no liquidation of the Jews by the Germans. (25-6842, 6843, 6844)

The Transfer (Haavara) Agreement of 1933 was one of the most important incidents in the Holocaust framework. Under this agreement some 2.5 million Jews were to be traded for trucks. The agreement never came to fruition because the Zionists could not take that number of Jews to Palestine. (25-6853, 6854)

(...)

In the early 1930s, as result of this co-operation between the Nazis and Zionists, some 120,000 Jews emigrated from Germany to Palestine. Difficulties began, however, when Britain, which administered Palestine, refused to issue any more immigration permits because of Arab unrest. (26-6879, 6880)

It start to appear the original "final solution" was outcast the Jew people from German, a idea supported by the Zionist movement inside German!

The Zionists were happy with this arrangement. An appointed Jewish Council was the governing body of the ghetto. They had their own police, jails and everything else. Naturally, there were some who were cruel. One of these was the vice president of the police, who was later executed. In Burg's eyes, this execution was evidence that Jews defended themselves against the minority of Zionists who were using the majority of Jews for their own purposes. (26-6886, 6887)

In the Lodz ghetto there was a Jewish police force, a Jewish bank, Jewish money, a Jewish post office, stamps only for Jews. There were workshops for Jews. If there was a German plan to liquidate the Jews, why were there workshops?, asked Burg. Why those expenses? Why train children for jobs? Thanks to Berlin, Burg testified, the Jews practiced a small Israel. These things could not be said today, however, because it was now said that there was a "Holocaust" and the Jews were murdered. (26-6888, 6889)

Wait? The Jewish ghetto have their own police? Bank? Currency? Post office? All supported by the Third Reich?

Where is the mass extermination plan?

So, I raise the question again:

Where I can find evidence which directly proves a plan of mass extermination?

 

[Moss]

How about you google the Posen speech?

And would you please answer my question why you assume there would be pictures or footage of the gassings?

 

[A'isha]

And so, despite the links I gave you, the thing you found compelling and convicing was an article on a conspiraloon website, written by someone who had literally been a Holocaust denier for decades at the time he wrote this about saucer-Nazi fan and fellow denier Ernst Zundel's trial, and passed on by Ernst Zundel's own wife? Without even a single indication that you even looked at, much less actually read, the actual evidence in the links I provided to you, especially the exhaustive Pressac reference which delved deep into the gas chamber issue?

Color me shocked. Shocked, I say.

 

[SnakeTongue]

There is no "both sides". There is history and there is the loons. Do you look at "both sides" of the creationism-evolution "dispute"? Do you look at "both sides" in the "moon landing hoax dispute"? Do you think a handful of ideologues and liars constitute a "side"?

You type like a fanatical religious person, which insist that his holy book is the only right.

The deity: supposed exterminated Jews

The religion: Holocaust

The holy book: countless misinterpreted evidence

The sin: dare to question the holy word and the existence of the deity

The evil enemy: the revisionists, vulgarly called "deniers"

The holy land: Auschwitz-Birkenau camp

That only reinforce the credibility of people like Robert Faurisson:

Against Hollywoodism, Revisionism

(...)

“The Holocaust” of the Jews then became a sort of religion whose three main components are the extermination, the gas chambers and the six million martyrs. According to an article of faith of this religion Hitler ordered and planned the methodical slaughter of all European Jews; in so doing he committed a crime without precedent, a specific crime, later called genocide. Then, in order to commit this specific crime, he had a specific weapon developed, a weapon of mass destruction, the gas chamber, operating especially with a powerful insecticide, Zyklon B, whose active ingredient was hydrogen cyanide. Finally, the result of this enormous crime was the death of six million European Jews.

 

[SnakeTongue]

And so, despite the links I gave you, the thing you found compelling and convicing was an article on a conspiraloon website, written by someone who had literally been a Holocaust denier for decades at the time he wrote this about saucer-Nazi fan and fellow denier Ernst Zundel's trial, and passed on by Ernst Zundel's own wife? Without even a single indication that you even looked at, much less actually read, the actual evidence in the links I provided to you, especially the exhaustive Pressac reference which delved deep into the gas chamber issue?

Color me shocked. Shocked, I say.

I read many articles, including the one from Pressac. I also verified documents and the forensic data.

I am really sorry, but the testimony of Joseph Burg destroyed all articles and evidence which I verified.

I also watched a testimony from Dina Gottliebova-Babbittm, which proves there were cultural activities in the concentration camps.

The overwhelming evidence which discredit the existence of a mass extermination cannot be ignored.

 

[A'isha]

I read many articles, including the one from Pressac.

You may have read many articles, but they were apparently all written by deniers (Faurisson? Really?). You certainly didn't read Pressac. Not in less than 24 hours while also claiming to have read a bunch of other articles.

I also verified documents and the forensic data.

Uh huh. And what documents and forensic data did you "verify", and how exactly didyou manage to "verify" them?

I am really sorry, but the testimony of Joseph Burg destroyed all articles and evidence which I verified.

Since you didn't actually "verify" anything, that must have been easy.

I also watched a testimony from Dina Gottliebova-Babbittm, which proves there were cultural activities in the concentration camps.

I can't even figure out what you're trying to argue with this.

The overwhelming evidence which discredit the existence of a mass extermination cannot be ignored.

I personally have found it very easy to ignore things that don't exist. Like "evidence which discredit the existence of a mass extermination", for instance.